I like it but it still sucks...

[Caine]

i play on ultra-violence and after coming back i still dont get why essential elements are still protected by the fanbase and dont matter for you/them?

 

even in the 2nd SP Level i already see the fuck ups in the game which shouldnt be there. i know that people will protect it and say i suck and dont understand it... but still here are some aspects which still suck and arent patched?

 

-quicksave.... so when did pc gamers didnt care about quicksave/individual saving?

i am at a checkpoint where i found a classic secret room later and went back and re-discovered it then i stepped to the next area and die... so every time i die i have to get to the secret again and again and again, instead of quicksaving it and then enter the next room.

 

- when you play ultra-violence and nightmare, you know you cannot survive WITHOUT glory kills, which means they are not optional! i feel like it's more a brawler than shooter this way.

 

- this is minor and doesnt really make this game bad, but how can a FPS not have a HOLD crouch button/option?

 

i know this is not CLASSIC doom and accept it as a different and new doom, but especially quicksave is something which shouldnt be accepted by pc gamers and especially so called classic gamers.....

[Arctangent]

32 minutes ago, Caine said:

which shouldnt be accepted by pc gamers and especially so called classic gamers.....

Would you like to share with the class what you find especially abhorrent for a Scotsman to not feel strongly about?

[Cynical]

50 minutes ago, Caine said:

 

-quicksave.... so when did pc gamers didnt care about quicksave/individual saving?

i am at a checkpoint where i found a classic secret room later and went back and re-discovered it then i stepped to the next area and die... so every time i die i have to get to the secret again and again and again, instead of quicksaving it and then enter the next room.

I don't like Doom 4, but this isn't a real complaint.  Git gud and stop dying, scrub.  Quicksaves are poison, and it's good that western developers are realizing this and phasing them out.

 

51 minutes ago, Caine said:

 

- this is minor and doesnt really make this game bad, but how can a FPS not have a HOLD crouch button/option?

Neither did Doom 1 or 2...

[Caine]

jeez.... so quicksave is now a disgrace?

the replies show how much is left in today's gamers logic/brain i guess. time to move on, no wonder such games get hyped.

[Caine]

14 minutes ago, Cynical said:

I don't like Doom 4, but this isn't a real complaint.  Git gud and stop dying, scrub.  Quicksaves are poison, and it's good that western developers are realizing this and phasing them out.

 

Neither did Doom 1 or 2...

they didnt have a crouch at all, how old are you at all? do people still think or just follow?

[Cynical]

Yes, Quicksave is stupid -- it was nothing more than a hack that western game developers used for a while because they weren't able to design meta-mechanics properly to match the consistency-in-skill they expected out of players.  As soon as the XBox/PS2 generation forced Eastern/Western devs to share ideas, and the Western devs got exposed to ideas from developers with arcade roots (where such meta-mechanics are crucial), the hack was abandoned because it was no longer needed.

 

Yes,  I'm aware that Doom 1 didn't have crouching at all.  And it was useful about zero times in Doom 4.

[Da Werecat]

16 minutes ago, Caine said:

jeez.... so quicksave is now a disgrace?

A legalized cheat, more like. They're too easy to abuse, and they encourage bad practices. Arguments can be made both in favor and against them.

 

16 minutes ago, Caine said:

the replies show how much is left in today's gamers logic/brain i guess.

This comes dangerously close to an ad hominem attack.

[40oz]

2 hours ago, Caine said:

i know that people will protect it and say i suck and dont understand it... but still here are some aspects which still suck and arent patched?

How long is id software supposed to keep developing the game? It's been out for almost a year.

[MrSkeltal]

People don't care about the lack of quicksaving because the levels are more linear and compact compared to OG Doom and fights usually never last too long so dying isn't a bother. If there were more open levels like Foundry, which has some awful checkpointing unless you do things in a specific order, it would've been mentioned by people and reviewers.

[MrGlide]

2 hours ago, Cynical said:

it was useful about zero times in Doom 4.

not true, crouch jumping makes for avoiding climbing in some spots, so you don't take enemy fire to the back of the head. I like crouching. mainly all I use crouch for is crouch jumping though. there are a few other uses for it. (edit) it may not have been usefull to you, but I enjoy the mechanic.

[⇛Marnetmar⇛]

3 hours ago, Caine said:

i know this is not CLASSIC doom and accept it as a different and new doom, but especially quicksave is something which shouldnt be accepted by pc gamers and especially so called classic gamers.....

Perhaps the game isn't the problem here.

[snapshot]

8 hours ago, Caine said:

i know this is not CLASSIC doom and accept it as a different and new doom, but especially quicksave is something which shouldnt be accepted by pc gamers and especially so called classic gamers Snowflakes.....

4 hours ago, MrGlide said:

not true, crouch jumping makes for avoiding climbing in some spots, so you don't take enemy fire to the back of the head. I like crouching. mainly all I use crouch for is crouch jumping though. there are a few other uses for it. (edit) it may not have been usefull to you, but I enjoy the mechanic.

I Had no use for the Crouch Mechanic in D'16 and I Don't know what was the purpose of adding it, the only moment I needed it was at the first level when I had to crouch to Reach the armor inside one of the moving crates.

8 hours ago, Caine said:

- when you play ultra-violence and nightmare, you know you cannot survive WITHOUT glory kills, which means they are not optional! i feel like it's more a brawler than shooter this way.

Classic gamers are the minority, they're updating their games to appeal to the Majority now, The more people buying, better chance for the series to survive.

Edited March 19, 2017 by dmg_64

[Caine]

especially the NON EXISTENT MOD Support i thought would be also something people would spit on but seems the gamers from the past moved on and dont give a crap anymore about games and new generation is brainwashed (the market speaks itself). guess i shall move on too and just accept how old IP's get butchered. i dont see much DOOM in DOOM 2016.... music = great but not DOOM, enemies = look and behave not DOOM, gameplay = nice but not DOOM and so on...

 

people here dunno what DOOM is and was. and instead of proving im wrong just blabbering childish talk and get offtopic.

 

yes, i know MOD Support is nonsense... how to beat that?

[Jayextee]

2 minutes ago, Caine said:

people here dunno what DOOM is and was.

 

Considering that some folk have been here for literally over a decade, and certainly before Doom 3 was a thing, I'd say this is probably the place where you can't make that statement.

 

That said, DOOM is a subjective thing. To some it's the atmosphere and horror, to some it's the slaughter. To others it's FPS Robotron 2084 and to some others still it's a creative sandbox and playground when you factor in mapping and modding tools.

 

But no. DOOM is apparently the ability to quicksave and the absolute lack of melee kills. We've all been had, thanks for the enlightenment.

[40oz]

Well you initiated this argument. I'm not going to tell you that Doom 2016 captured everything Doom was about perfectly. I dont think anyone has the capacity to do that and make it work for every single person. Even John Romeros new Doom 1 maps don't really fit seamlessly within the shareware Doom episode. (for me, anyway)

 

What I do know is that I had fun playing the new Doom and it was fascinating to see how these people interpretted the game. But I'm still going to continue to Doom 2 instead because it already has everything in a game that I like. If you don't like Doom 2016 its ok but I'm not really following your logic that everyone needs to be as passionate and outraged that this game not being what you wanted as you are.

[shotfan]

Since when the quicksave OPTION is a bad thing?

I play classic Doom and I do not use quicksaves at all. That does not make me go around and tell people that checkpoints are objectively superior.

Also, quicksaves were generally absent from console games before the sixth generation (and are still), so I see no cultural exchange at work in there.

If somebody "ab"uses quicksaves every few seconds, that is their "problem". They can always decide to not use quicksaves or to lower the difficulty (the standard of multiple difficulty settings are what I would deem as a good innovation of the modern gaming, but Doom actually had that since the beginning...).

Stop telling people how they should play their (singleplayer) games, please.

[Bauul]

I was in the "Quicksaves are vital!" camp until I got into an argument with a friend about Dark Souls (which for those who don't know, has a kind of weird endless-autosave but respawn at checkpoint approach).

 

He was annoyed that he couldn't quicksave wherever he wanted, and I was trying to explain why that would fundamentally break the game. The challenge the designers create is to do tasks A, B, C and D in one go. If you can save after just A, then it trivializes the rest. The difficulty is tuned to do all four in one go.

 

Quicksaves are the equivalent of putting a respawn point anywhere you like, and means designers can't ever design a single challenge that has multiple stages. 

 

It was then I realized why checkpoints were a better option than quicksaves (presuming the developer inserts them properly! The Foundry I'm glaring at you!).

[Da Werecat]

This reminds me of a forum I used to frequent. It was dedicated to older games in general, and it was full of people in their early twenties trying to convince each other that not obsessing over old standarts and/or despising new features is a shameful sign of a newfag who's too young to appreciate the untainted and indisputable greatness of everything old. People with less narrow viewpoints weren't exactly shunned, but their population was shrinking.

 

Good times.

 

27 minutes ago, shotfan said:

If somebody "ab"uses quicksaves every few seconds, that is their "problem". They can always decide to not use quicksaves or to lower the difficulty.

I wouldn't use quotes here. Save scumming sucks the fun out of the game faster than an insert an obscene reference here. And if the player never tried any other way of playing, they won't know any better.

 

16 minutes ago, shotfan said:

Stop telling people how they should play their (singleplayer) games, please.

I won't speak for others, but I'm not telling you how you should play you singleplayer games. I'm sharing my view of quicksaves as an objectionable feature that does harm in addition to doing good.

[MrSkeltal]

The lack of quicksaving in the Souls franchise works and is intentional because the difficulty and fear of losing progress is the core of the games.

 

In Doom there really is no reason you shouldn't be allowed to quicksave and I'm fairly sure the reason for its absence is A) No one caring because of how small the levels and encounters are, as I mentioned before. And B) Technical Issues where quick saving could break scripting.

 

1 hour ago, Caine said:

especially the NON EXISTENT MOD Support i thought would be also something people would spit on but seems the gamers from the past moved on and dont give a crap anymore about games and new generation is brainwashed (the market speaks itself). guess i shall move on too and just accept how old IP's get butchered. i dont see much DOOM in DOOM 2016.... music = great but not DOOM, enemies = look and behave not DOOM, gameplay = nice but not DOOM and so on...

 

people here dunno what DOOM is and was. and instead of proving im wrong just blabbering childish talk and get offtopic.

 

yes, i know MOD Support is nonsense... how to beat that?

Almost no one cares about the lack of mod support because the people who have the ability and are willing to put all the work to mod modern games are too busy making their own to sell.

[Cynical]

2 hours ago, shotfan said:

Stop telling people how they should play their (singleplayer) games, please.

Any videogame that is any more of a game than crap like Garry's Mod or Minecraft -- that is, anything other than a directionless sandbox -- is inherently forcing its rules upon the player, including win/loss condition.  Thus, this statement is nonsense. 

 

1 hour ago, MrSkeltal said:

The lack of quicksaving in the Souls franchise works and is intentional because the difficulty and fear of losing progress is the core of the games.

 

In Doom there really is no reason you shouldn't be allowed to quicksave and I'm fairly sure the reason for its absence is A) No one caring because of how small the levels and encounters are, as I mentioned before. And B) Technical Issues where quick saving could break scripting.

 

Almost no one cares about the lack of mod support because the people who have the ability and are willing to put all the work to mod modern games are too busy making their own to sell.

"The fear of losing progress if you die" is the core of, like, every single action game ever.  That's not something that makes Souls special; indeed, Souls is actually less punishing than most games, since it lets you keep some of your progress (your gear and our recovery bloodstain) if you die, instead of just making you reload your save from the last checkpoint without those things.

[Houndoom]

It isn't popular opinion to say but I don't like DOOM2016 as much either. The art direction didn't feel as campy the original games and it takes itself way too seriously with the monster arenas. It feels less like a demonic incursion and more like a generic gamemode with no discernible goals beyond just kill everything and advance to the next stage (Although the bonus arenas did something different). Some games and modifications have made this style of progression fun where Doom2016 failed for me. My expectations must be unreasonably high so, I'm sorry. It's okay if that's all you want out of it. 

 

Oh and.. Someone said Doom 3 was a thing? I thought it was always the niche Doom of the bunch. It never took off as far because nobody had the best GPUs to run it at the time. BFG Edition exist to remind people it was still around, it had a small cult following but never really anything close to the scale the classics user base. Doom 3 is also a nightmare to mod and map for.. Even if they had released full editors for DOOM2016. It would take so many years to effectively use it because Id Software was never too keen on making more developer friendly solutions. That's just the price for incredible graphics.

[Jayextee]

15 minutes ago, Houndoom said:

It would take so many years to effectively use it because Id Software was never too keen on making more developer friendly solutions.

 

And here I was thinking SnapMap was supposed to be the remedy to that little trend. *shrugs*

:P

[Houndoom]

1 minute ago, Jayextee said:

 

And here I was thinking SnapMap was supposed to be the remedy to that little trend. *shrugs*

:P

If modding was a little trend. I don't think Doomworld would exist the way it is today.

Snapmap does have it's perks, but it still has some hard limitations that traditional mapping software has advantages over.

[Da Werecat]

Wouldn't making SnapMap more complex just reduce its accessibility to the majority of people into modding?

 

Doom 3 was hard to mod mostly because it was a big and complex game that set a high standart for content. The lighting system wasn't particularly friendly, of course, but it seems to be a secondary issue to me. Doom 2016 would be an even bigger challenge for amateurs.

[Houndoom]

@Da Werecat Making snapmap more complex without direction would just lead to problems. With direction: giving the user the ability to create custom modules and inject them into the lineup would give more creative freedom without sacrificing the current build UI, it would then be close to a traditional map editor without having to rely on what id software updates it with. As for Doom 3.. Not everyone can be an id employee working with complex building tools that took years to learn and refine. It's mostly down to in-house skills at that point. Although, with an external custom module builder for snapmap, it wouldn't be any less difficult in the skill requirement, but it would make things more organic.

[MrGlide]

how well did mods for rage go again? rage had everything people are asking for to mod doom with am I right?

[Man of Doom]

4 hours ago, Houndoom said:

It isn't popular opinion to say but I don't like DOOM2016 as much either. The art direction didn't feel as campy the original games and it takes itself way too seriously with the monster arenas. It feels less like a demonic incursion and more like a generic gamemode with no discernible goals beyond just kill everything and advance to the next stage (Although the bonus arenas did something different). Some games and modifications have made this style of progression fun where Doom2016 failed for me. My expectations must be unreasonably high so, I'm sorry. It's okay if that's all you want out of it. 

 

The thing with Doom 2016, especially compared to Doom 3, is meant to be in a lighter and softer direction when it comes to the art direction, especially since everything was made to look more badass, rather than scary.

 

On the topic of the monster arenas, while they do get kind of samey after a while, which certainly doesn't help the fact that you pretty much run the gamut of the entire bestiary by the halfway point of the game, at least said arenas are helped by just how gorgeous they look and how the game itself places special emphasis on movement. Although, there are levels that seriously could have done with less linearity (Advanced Research Complex, Lazarus Labs, the Necropolis, and VEGA Central Processing all come to mind).

 

4 hours ago, Houndoom said:

Oh and.. Someone said Doom 3 was a thing? I thought it was always the niche Doom of the bunch. It never took off as far because nobody had the best GPUs to run it at the time. BFG Edition exist to remind people it was still around, it had a small cult following but never really anything close to the scale the classics user base.

 

Eh, not really. At the time, Doom 3 was id Software's most commercially successful product that had ever been released (I'm not sure if D2016 had surpassed that goal, though).

So niche? Possibly. 

A small cult? Not really.

[Koko Ricky]

OP's complaints are pretty minor. None of these things bug me, really. However, I do find that strafing doesn't feel as good, but then I'm playing on the PS4.

[Flesh420]

On 3/18/2017 at 10:54 PM, Cynical said:

Yes, Quicksave is stupid -- it was nothing more than a hack that western game developers used for a while because they weren't able to design meta-mechanics properly to match the consistency-in-skill they expected out of players.  As soon as the XBox/PS2 generation forced Eastern/Western devs to share ideas, and the Western devs got exposed to ideas from developers with arcade roots (where such meta-mechanics are crucial), the hack was abandoned because it was no longer needed.

 

Yes,  I'm aware that Doom 1 didn't have crouching at all.  And it was useful about zero times in Doom 4.

Lol what?  The whole foundation of pc gaming was heavily influenced by arcades.  Nothing about anything that is quoted makes sense.

[Cynical]

Yeah, Adventure, Zork, etc. are soooo arcade influenced.

 

Action gaming was primarily the domain of consoles and arcades prior to Wolf 3D -- PC devs focused on adventure games, strategy games, and RPGs.  Western devs basically got wiped out of the arcade and console markets in the crash of 1983.  Because of this, when PC devs did start making action games, they largely based their meta-mechanics on the first-person tile-based RPGs they had been making for over a decade, missing out on about 20 years of meta-mechanical action game theory in the process.