Theoretical Discussion: Heretic Monsters

[Not Jabba]

(Inspired by the Demon/Spectre use thread and rdwpa's old Theoretical Discussion threads, which I have blatantly ripped off the header from :P)

(See also: Heretic Artifacts)

 

The biggest complaints about Heretic's bestiary are A) all the monsters are basically the same, and B) they all have mid-range health that's too high relative to the power of most of the weapons, making them tedious to kill. Even the most die-hard Heretic fans tend to acknowledge that the game could benefit a huge amount from an expanded bestiary.

 

So what do you think would make it better? Which monsters would you add to make the combat more dynamic? Would you rather see fodder enemies that go down quickly and can be used in swarms, or more miniboss enemies with randomized attacks like the Iron Lich? Which existing monsters are the most useful or interesting? What are some strategic ways to use the existing monsters that people may not have thought of?

Bonus question: suppose you took the approach of making the player's weapons more powerful so that the existing enemies were less grindy? How would that change the needs of the bestiary?

 

My favorite Heretic enemies to use are the Nitrogolem and Disciple. The Nitrogolem is weaker than the Revenant and its attack is easier to dodge, but it's still more dangerous than conventional projectile shooters. I really like that combination of high-damage semi-fodder enemy, because it lets you use a lot of them at once to keep the player under pressure without requiring lots of cover or feeling unfair, and also because it's a good way to control the player's combat focus -- Nitrogolems are usually the first enemies a player will shoot for, which gives you a good way to control the flow of a map. Disciples have a simple but effective attack pattern that also requires good dodging skills; they're dangerous both as lone enemies in close quarters and as group enemies in larger areas. In some ways, I think they're a better, more versatile enemy than their Doom counterpart, the Cacodemon -- and they may be the only Heretic enemy I can say that about.

 

Some ideas I've been thinking about for new monsters:

-A melee enemy that is actually powerful enough to create pressure for the player until it goes down. I've been experimenting with this, and it seems like the ideal combination is significant base speed, better-than-default melee range, and some sort of special power, like being a ghost, having a charge attack, or putting on random bursts of much higher speed to make it more dangerous for players to turn their back on the monster.

-Low-health Sidhe zombies that use player weapons like the Elven Wand, Ethereal Crossbow, or Dragon Claw.

-I really liked the Viper enemy from Echelon, and it seems like with a good reskin, it might make an interesting Ophidian enemy. The flamethrower attack with the long volleys of randomly spreading fireballs make it sort of like a Mancubus/Arachnotron cross, capable of pinning the player down to some extent but also allowing it to be more mobile and easier to use in larger groups.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Not Jabba

[42PercentHealth]

I like your ideas for new monsters. I notice that Doom 2 added a lot of mid-range health monsters, but then added a weapon well suited to these. Heretic has the former but lacks the latter. So I might suggest that a new weapon or two is in order for Heretic anyway...

 

As for types of new monsters, I'd suggest an emphasis on low-tier fodder that can be mowed down by the dragon claw or hell staff. However, your description of the melee enemy has me intrigued, and so I'd like to see what you can do with that idea. Reminds me of the ghosts in the old Mario games, except that you don't have the advantages of being able to see behind your character! That could have a terrifying effect on new or unsuspecting players.

 

Bosses are one thing that Heretic got right; but, you know, the more the merrier! :-)

[Reiken]

Maybe ghosted sabreclaws that become corporeal when attacking, with higher damage output. Possibly add a mild explosive radius on death (works with the death frames).

Acid weredragons that fire fast, puddling streams of acid (multiple projectiles that fall in progressively shorter arcs, remain as small puddles on ground for a few seconds).

Edited March 24, 2017 by Reiken

[Gez]

Packs of ghost warriors are efficient turrets -- since their projectiles go through their fellow ghosts, they will not block the attacks of the ghost warriors behind them.

 

Likewise, a pack of ghost warriors can efficiently be shielded by ghost golems or ghost nitrogolems. Avoid having the ghost nitrogolems behind the ghost warriors however -- screaming heads don't go through ghosts.

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

Mostly I'd have liked to see an arch-vile analogue (in so far as the resurrection power goes, not necessarily the fire spell).  Possibly with the added twist of giving the stuff it resurrects the ghost flag, but maybe that's too evil (since you can't hit ghosts with the staff that you have to resort to when you're out of ammo and don't have the Gauntlets of the Necromancer).

[SFoZ911]

 I think the Weredragon had the potential to be a great mid-tier monster. It's got a great sprite and looks really intimidating but in the actual game, it's rather poor in performance. 220 hp is rather low for a "tank" and he's projectile attack is useless since it's not very fast or powerful and go in straight line. Giving him more health(350-400), making him just a little bit slower and giving him a stronger projectile and a melee attack(I mean c'mon, this thing looks like he can do some serious damage with its claws and mouth)would make him a great mid-tier monster. 

 

I like the concept of a 2 stage monster like D'sparil when he rides the Chaos serpent albeit as a normal monster, so you can have two separate attacks with a single monster.

 

 

[Not Jabba]

On 3/24/2017 at 6:06 PM, Gez said:

Packs of ghost warriors are efficient turrets -- since their projectiles go through their fellow ghosts, they will not block the attacks of the ghost warriors behind them. Likewise, a pack of ghost warriors can efficiently be shielded by ghost golems or ghost nitrogolems.

Ha, brilliant! I hadn't thought of that.

 

23 hours ago, ETTiNGRiNDER said:

Mostly I'd have liked to see an arch-vile analogue (in so far as the resurrection power goes, not necessarily the fire spell).

A monster like that would be awesome to have, and it's something I'd like to get around to eventually. It would require some seriously badass sprites, so hopefully I'll be up to the challenge by then.

 

23 hours ago, Sky said:

 I think the Weredragon had the potential to be a great mid-tier monster. It's got a great sprite and looks really intimidating but in the actual game, it's rather poor in performance. 220 hp is rather low for a "tank" and he's projectile attack is useless since it's not very fast or powerful and go in straight line. Giving him more health(350-400), making him just a little bit slower and giving him a stronger projectile and a melee attack(I mean c'mon, this thing looks like he can do some serious damage with its claws and mouth)would make him a great mid-tier monster. 

I've done some of this in Wayfarer, but I settled for less of a health increase because I felt like it would make him a pain to kill, and wouldn't really be in line with his threat level (basically, the same complaints people have about Barons of Hell). You're right about the melee attack -- I hadn't given it much thought until now, but it ought to be more powerful.

[TwinBeast]

I'm just fine with about all of the enemies. The iron lich is annoying with the wind attack.. also shouldn't it fly? I'm thinking they're too lazy to fly.

 

Maybe some weapons are a bit too similar.. the first weapon, dragon claw, hell staff and the fire mace all feel like they're the same weapon. The tomed attacks add a bit more variety, but never really used it in the iwad levels.

[Jayextee]

Weredragons should've had a wee bit less health, but IMO a crazy firing rate; something to make Arachnotrons look like they fire in slow-motion. After all, they're dragons, right? A solid stream of fire would (a) look dragon-esque and (b) necessitate from the player evasion that doesn't double-back on itself.

 

And slow down the melee animation, but make it almost absolutely fatal.

[Ichor]

I seem to remember very early Heretic versions had weredragon ghosts. It would have been nice if those were still in the game.

[HavoX]

That might explain the manual incorrectly saying a ghost version of them being in the game, perhaps they might've been pulled at some point during development

[kb1]

I just wanted to say that I always loved Heretic, and even Hexen (Dungeons and Dragons for Doom:), and I like these discussions. And, I'm a big fan of cannon fodder enemies. It's always fun to tear through a huge crowd. Heretic really needed more content, especially textures. I'd like to see that world greatly expand on the medieval stuff: Taverns and other shops and dwellings, castle stuff, underground cavey stuff, outdoor support, etc. For enemies, I'd like non-enemy creatures, like birds, rodents, farm critters, etc. Also, human enemies, like various soldiers, maybe even with swords, on horses. Sea creatures, like the Loch-ness monster thing from Hexen. The wizards were awesome - maybe monsters with certain spells and other magic abilities. Maybe a jumping monster. Also melee monsters are fun.

 

Many people are limited by their artistic abilities. As you know, a single monster that walks requires somewhere around 35 to 70 frames to be carefully drawn to look believable.

 

I know you were looking for feasible specifics - I don't even know where to begin. I feel like Heretic/Hexen has been far under-utilized. It's a more-difficult theme to get right, vs. Doom, I think, but with great potential.

[Cupboard]

Things that are immensely satisfying to do Heretic, here's a bucket list before you die:

1) gib a pack of gargoyles with a phoenix missile

2) gib a weredragon (very possible with the Tome of Power + Firemace or if the weredragon is first damaged and then later hit by phoenix missle or maulotaur  projectiles, haha)

3) you try to keep a couple of enemies alive before you fight the Maulotaurs in this custom pwad, just so you can drain the life out of them with Tome'd Gauntlets of the Necromancer

4) You insist on letting the Maulotaur hit you with the melee hammer pound, you survive just to keep on shooting your crossbow at close range

5) You use the Tome of Power and the Wand to great, amusing, and enemy-aggravating effects. They are going to be stunned if you are in close quarters.

6) We finally realize all along, that the Phoenix flamethrower is matched to engage perfectly with the sabreclaw. 

7) You do yourself a favor and download a mod that *at least* lets the iron lich fly. It's 21st century, we can handle mouselook, people. I understand why they were ground enemies back in the late 90s. PG UP and PG DN were your best options on a lot of computers. The flying boss didn't exist until Hexen, and even then there was a limit to how high it would actually travel.

 

addendum: The dragon claw is easily the best weapon in deathmatch, it is the BFG of Heretic. It is a hitscan weapon with the best Tome of Power upgrade ever, the devastating iron maces going in all directions. In singleplayer, the effect is a bit lackluster unless the arena conditions are right for it. But the *zone damage* of the dragon claw is tremendous in deathmatch. You can shoot the claw without seeing your enemy and still have a chance to kill him, which is a luxury in deathmatch. 

 

other trivia: yes, the maulotaur does have a small chance to drop loot: 1 Mystic Urn or 1 small phoenix orb.

[Albertoni]

On 25/03/2017 at 9:32 PM, Jayextee said:

A solid stream of fire would (a) look dragon-esque and (b) necessitate from the player evasion that doesn't double-back on itself.

And half a dozen of them spitting fire at the same time would bring the good old vanilla engine down to its knees :P

 

But yeah, now that we can assume people will be running the game in a computer with more MHz than they have fingers, that is a non-issue.

[Ichor]

1 hour ago, Cupboard said:

Things that are immensely satisfying to do Heretic, here's a bucket list before you die:

1) gib a pack of gargoyles with a phoenix missile

2) gib a weredragon (very possible with the Tome of Power + Firemace or if the weredragon is first damaged and then later hit by phoenix missle or maulotaur  projectiles, haha)

3) you try to keep a couple of enemies alive before you fight the Maulotaurs in this custom pwad, just so you can drain the life out of them with Tome'd Gauntlets of the Necromancer

4) You insist on letting the Maulotaur hit you with the melee hammer pound, you survive just to keep on shooting your crossbow at close range

5) You use the Tome of Power and the Wand to great, amusing, and enemy-aggravating effects. They are going to be stunned if you are in close quarters.

6) We finally realize all along, that the Phoenix flamethrower is matched to engage perfectly with the sabreclaw. 

7) You do yourself a favor and download a mod that *at least* lets the iron lich fly. It's 21st century, we can handle mouselook, people. I understand why they were ground enemies back in the late 90s. PG UP and PG DN were your best options on a lot of computers. The flying boss didn't exist until Hexen, and even then there was a limit to how high it would actually travel.

8) Since the speed of the powered up mace shots is affected by your own speed, I like firing a few of them while aiming down and moving backwards at just the right speed so they bounce in place. Then, whenever an enemy gets close enough, they start bouncing towards it (if nothing shows up, they will bounce higher and higher until they eventually hit the ceiling). Do that in deathmatch for extra laughs.