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Battle_Korbi

In regards to music.

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Greetings and salutations.

 

I have a short but complex question (set).

 

What is the deal with MIDIs? Can I just use a actual mp3 or 4 song in my maps. Yeah, I know they are possible to do, I keep doing that nowadays.

 

I am just asking about the consistency to use MIDIs. Is it because of file size? Nostalgia? Or everyone else but me depend on some ancient computer speakers that for some reasons can't play any music but MIDIs? I don't understand.

 

Besides, I have planned to use a 8bit cover of a song for my first official map (while giving proper credits), and I am asking just because of that, like, do I really need to make a entire song in MIDI just so it can be playable by standard, and do you guys get repulsed by anything else non MIDI like "ugh, its not midi, I cannot tolerate this. this map sucks"?

 

Thanks for tolerating my shit.

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MIDIs are a lot more compact, and proper ones sound really nice. mp3s add substantial filesize to your WAD, and in terms of copyright, might get flagged if someone uploads a run of your map on YT.

There's also a bit of nostalgia involved, and outside of highly detailed GZdoom maps mp3s seem out of place because of how they sound compared to a MIDI. Gotta keep things level, nomsayin?

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Repulsed because it's not MIDI? Whoever does that is a terrible person.

 

I'll just tell you my opinions.

 

Can you? Yes. Are you allowed to? Yes. No one's stopping you from doing it. Although, personally, I find it odd when a map has music that bigger than the map itself eg 500kb map with a 5mb mp3. Strange :/ but hey it's your call.

 

Doom's native music format is MIDI/MUS. Obviously that's how most people would go with Doom music. MIDI music doesn't have absolute audio data (what's the correct term?) in them, rather instructions on what instrument to play at what time at what volume etc. Kinda like sharing Oblige seeds rather than the Oblige WAD itself.

And the fact that the filesize is so small and with the right soundfont, it can sound just as beautiful as a MP3, helps. I guess the thing is, MIDI can play nicely with the advantage of a low filesize.

 

And all ports support MIDI (fuck Doom95 though)! Other music formats, not so much as MIDI support. 

 

It better be a good map though.

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20 minutes ago, Battle_Kirby said:

I am just asking about the consistency to use MIDIs. Is it because of file size? Nostalgia? Or everyone else but me depend on some ancient computer speakers that for some reasons can't play any music but MIDIs? I don't understand.

Of course, I'm no expert, but I think MIDI's are vanilla and Boom compatible, and mp3's are not.

 

But if you're just making *ZDoom-compatible maps, and if the *ZDooms support mp3's, then I don't think you have anything to worry about. Except file sizes. And maybe the stylistic and legal considerations mentioned by @Nine Inch Heels.

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import whatever music you like, just make it suit the level, or your feelings about the level, or something. the boat for complaining that Doom's Not Doom No Mo has well and truly sailed so do what you feel

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Doom is a simplistic, cartoonish game. Everything is stylized and only vaguely represents what it is supposed to be. In an environment like that, it makes sense for the music to be in the severely limited MIDI format.

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2 hours ago, 42PercentHealth said:

Of course, I'm no expert, but I think MIDI's are vanilla and Boom compatible, and mp3's are not.

 

But if you're just making *ZDoom-compatible maps, and if the *ZDooms support mp3's, then I don't think you have anything to worry about. Except file sizes. And maybe the stylistic and legal considerations mentioned by @Nine Inch Heels.

 

Mp3s do work in prboom-plus. The game freezes a little longer when they loop, though, and iirc they crash a little more often.

 

There are no stylistic considerations if you're mapping for zdoom.

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42 minutes ago, Grain of Salt said:

There are no stylistic considerations if you're mapping for zdoom.

Not a ZDoom fan, I take it?

 

Personally, I like the feel of the port, but I don't like the ZDoom-targeted mods of the game. For the most part, I only play vanilla- and Boom-compatible WADs.

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Most of the non-midi music I've heard in wads I've strongly disliked. Sometimes people will compress their mp3s/oggs a lot to keep the filesize down but it sounds awful. If you're gonna go that route, you gotta go all in and use 192kbps at least, and give up on smaller files.

 

Also I think midis can smooth over people's poor music selections ;) If an ill-fitting midi is used, it's less distracting than an ill-fitting mp3. I think Hellground is the only example of non-midi music that I enjoyed in a wad. Oh, and ToD's DMP16 map :P

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10 minutes ago, Benjogami said:

Most of the non-midi music I've heard in wads I've strongly disliked. Sometimes people will compress their mp3s/oggs a lot to keep the filesize down but it sounds awful. If you're gonna go that route, you gotta go all in and use 192kbps at least, and give up on smaller files.

 

Also I think midis can smooth over people's poor music selections ;) If an ill-fitting midi is used, it's less distracting than an ill-fitting mp3. I think Hellground is the only example of non-midi music that I enjoyed in a wad. Oh, and ToD's DMP16 map :P

Probably a rather profound thought here, actually. ("Profound" might be too big a word, but who's measuring?)

 

There's a tendency for people to shape their standards for some work of art based on the standards that the work sets for itself. If the music is in MIDI format, the player will put up with something rather poor, because he expects little from a MIDI. But take the same song and play it in a high-quality format recorded in a studio by real musicians -- it had better be good, it had better fit the mood, it had better not "catch" or "skip" ... Why? Simply because the music is trying to be something great. While we're personifying, we might go so far as to say that the music is trying to "steal the show." If it's going to do that, it had better do it good.

 

I think I'm going to side with the "don't make the music better than the graphics, sound, level design, etc." crowd.

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Not sure if it's still the case, but weren't there also rules on uploads to the idgames db preventing inclusion of mp3s due to concern for copyright infringement and/or suppressing filesize growth? That'd be another factor.

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Saying that MIDI is a low-quality format because it uses old sounds is kind of like saying that Doom maps are all low-quality because they run on an old engine. They're not worse, just different, and saying otherwise would be a huge disservice to people like stewboy and Mechadon who have spent years mastering their respective crafts. What they have in common is that the people making them are working under a specific set of limitations, which is why they go together -- both MIDIs and Doom levels are based on technology from the same era. MIDIs sound Doomy.

 

Obviously that doesn't mean you *have* to use a MIDI in a Doom level. As many people have already pointed out, you can do whatever you want, and that's totally ok. That said, if your goal is to create something that feels polished, you may want to give some thought to how the elements of your composition work together. The more your level is like vanilla Doom, the more fitting a MIDI will be. The less your level is like vanilla Doom, the easier it will be to use an OGG or MP3.

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58 minutes ago, Not Jabba said:

Saying that MIDI is a low-quality format because it uses old sounds is kind of like saying that Doom maps are all low-quality because they run on an old engine. They're not worse, just different, and saying otherwise would be a huge disservice to people like stewboy and Mechadon who have spent years mastering their respective crafts. What they have in common is that the people making them are working under a specific set of limitations, which is why they go together -- both MIDIs and Doom levels are based on technology from the same era. MIDIs sound Doomy.

 

Obviously that doesn't mean you *have* to use a MIDI in a Doom level. As many people have already pointed out, you can do whatever you want, and that's totally ok. That said, if your goal is to create something that feels polished, you may want to give some thought to how the elements of your composition work together. The more your level is like vanilla Doom, the more fitting a MIDI will be. The less your level is like vanilla Doom, the easier it will be to use an OGG or MP3.

I am inclined to believe that even the venerated id team back in the early '90s would agree that MIDIs are a low-quality music format. Record players, tape players, and live performances all sound better. Maybe they chose MIDIs because it was all they had (not sure -- I was only 3 at the time), and maybe they chose MIDIs for some of the reasons listed in this thread. But it cannot be denied that a MIDI piano, guitar, trumpet, etc. do not have the power or soul that the real instruments with human players have.

 

I do not mean to say that an artist who works with MIDIs is in some way less than any other musician. In fact, a mediocre artist can make an orchestra sound impressive, but would fail to make an impressive MIDI; a truly great artist can make do with less.

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1 hour ago, Reiken said:

Not sure if it's still the case, but weren't there also rules on uploads to the idgames db preventing inclusion of mp3s due to concern for copyright infringement and/or suppressing filesize growth? That'd be another factor.

You can always use creative commons music. There's a fair bit of original music under that, but I doubt any of it is Midi.

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MIDI only sounds as bad as whatever is used to render it, barring bad composition. Blame the DMX sound library, bad midi->mus conversion, and human variance in sample/synth libraries.

 

(I know DMX is long-gone except for those running actual vanilla, and modern ports probably don't care if a midi has been converted or not, but hell, these have probably contributed enough to the perception of shitty midi (like the bugged ROTT tracks in HR))

Edited by Reiken

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MIDI's are very archaic technology in todays times. If anyone uses a MIDI in their map, it's by choice. There is always a better option than MIDI's.

If somone uses a MIDI because of file size then they're just stuck in the 90's lol that or the person is using a 1GB hard drive or something... there's litterally no reason for anyone to complain about "large" wads or pk3's considering the endless ways to share a file of any size nowadays.

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13 hours ago, Reiken said:

Not sure if it's still the case, but weren't there also rules on uploads to the idgames db preventing inclusion of mp3s due to concern for copyright infringement and/or suppressing filesize growth? That'd be another factor.

As I understand it, the idgames rule was and is supposed to mean something along these lines: Don't upload works that contain copyrighted music (that you don't have permission to use). If you upload a work containing copyrighted music that is just in midi format, it will be (almost surely) accepted anyway. But if the copyrighted music is in a higher quality format, it will be rejected.

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8 hours ago, jdagenet said:

MIDI's are very archaic technology in todays times.

The irony is that in a way Midi's making a comeback. What with the rise of dynamic soundtracks that adjust to the flow of action, games like Doom 4 are storing their music as separate riffs that are then pieced together at runtime. The composer of that game even believes that the amount of audio processing done in realtime for music in games will only increase as we go into the future. Perhaps even culminating in what are essentially built-in DAWs that are then scripted to change according to specific outcomes.

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