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Mike800

Why almost nobody is mapping for Duke3D anymore?

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As a fan of Duke3D I would sure like to see much more than 20-25 single maps being released per year.

 

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Have you tried checking with the few Duke Nukem communities out there such as Duke4.net for an example?

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I can only speak for myself here:

 

I've tried getting into Duke 3D mapping many times, but I find it to be very difficult when you're used to modern Doom mapping conventions. The editor is especially clunky and it doesn't let you focus in and out of it like you would with say, DoomBuilder (or any proper Windows application). As someone who likes to do multiple things at one time, this is especially tedious since you'd have to alt-tab out of the editor every time you want to change a song, etc. I also don't like the key configuration for Mapster. Remember how you can change pretty much every key function in DoomBuilder? Well, forget about that; in Mapster it's one workflow and nothing else, as far as I know.

 

In short: maps for Duke 3D are dying out because only a few people are old and patient enough to bother with it.

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Duke 3D modding has one major disadvantage: no modern community-made tools. This means you are still stuck using archaic support to make your level with any ports extensions.

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20-25 maps per is near impossible give the state of the Duke3D community, there's very few people who have time and patience to make maps, besides there's a lot of maps out there for Duke3D.

Also the few people that map for Duke3D put a lot of effort and time to ensure it's the best quality possible, so there's that.

 

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I'm I one of the few people that has an actual book on how to use the duke3d editor?   I got it at frys electronics years and years ago.

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I would have released a map or two but I hate Mapster/Build so much, it controls so awkwardly and is generally a complete bastard to use so I ended throwing in the towel because I don't want to have to do research just to try and fight with the editor.

 

That is probably what choked the mapping side of Duke 3D for most newbie mappers.

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its a shame that the community isn't very active, especially considering that you can make some really great stuff with d3d.

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On 9-4-2017 at 5:10 PM, Mike800 said:

Maybe this tool can help with Duke3D mapping.

That's pretty cool, but wouldn't you just release your map for GZDoom at that point? Maybe it's just me.

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Maybe if Gearbox, had not screwed up Megaton Edition and sold World Tour as a DLC, maybe you could see more maps Duke3d....

Gearbox was like the final nail in Duke coffin.

 

Even Mapster32 is quite cumbersome...

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Some years ago I tried mapping for DN3D, but the editor (Idon't remember which one I used) really wasn't user friendly.

Edited by Angry Saint

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Nowadays it's an absolute pain in the ass to go back and try to map for, even with Mapster.

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34 minutes ago, Sallan said:

Just put Duke 3D shit in DOOM and problem solved.

 

 

I actually thought about something like this. I frequently thought about how feasible it would be to port say, the shareware-episode of Duke 3D to something like (G)ZDoom. It would arguably make the game a lot more mod-able, with the advantage of DECORATE (now being replaced with ZScript, which offers even more complexity) and ACS scripting.

Admittedly, it would be pretty tricky to simulate Build's fake room over room effect, such as the winding staircase in the theater in Hollywood Holocaust. Perhaps mappers can use portals to achieve the same effect though.

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58 minutes ago, Agentbromsnor said:

Admittedly, it would be pretty tricky to simulate Build's fake room over room effect, such as the winding staircase in the theater in Hollywood Holocaust. Perhaps mappers can use portals to achieve the same effect though.

You'd have to use a shit-load of 3D floors.

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I've made a LOT of Duke3D maps years ago (the Crucial Conflict series, for one). But while I miss a lot of the Duke3D features now I'm mapping for Doom - such as the sound things, floors-over-floors, sticking things to a wall like posters and graffiti, revolving doors, and so on and and so on - I just don't like Duke's atmosphere, weaponry and bestiary as much.

 

Ok, ok, some of the things I mentioned above would be possible in Doom as well, with modding, but when speaking of a hard-to-use editor, modding is certainly not easier.

 

And the very limitations and low-thresholdness of the Doom engine trigger creativity as well, which I like.

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Because it's a pain in the ass. Which is a real shame.

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Clearly you're not looking hard enough. User maps for Duke like this one are a thriving and pure form of art.

 

 

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Once you start making maps for Duke, it tends to catch up to you. For instance an old mapper, and one of the most remembered, just resurfaced the other day with a new map.

 

One of the reason why DN3D has always had less maps than Doom is because it's harder to get into. Not only that, but making a DN3D map takes a lot more time than making a Doom map: for instance, instead of shading per sector, you shade per surface which takes 4 times as much time, and you have to be precise as fuck.

Another reason is that the community tends to be a little more competitive than Doom's, and these days it's like most everyone is working on a super big project like an episode or a mod. Then there is also the Bombshell prequel game in the works which uses quite a few people from the DN3D community, so they obviously don't really have time to make maps or mods, but that's a good thing.

 

As far as I'm concerned I need a break from DN3D mapping. I burnt myself out with DN3D when working on the Duke Hard episode, then burnt myself out with Build as a whole after making a Shadow Warrior map and contributing to the Powerslave documentation and mapping project. These days I'm more interested in romhacking NES MegaMan games but I know DN3D will probably catch up to me at some point.

 

On 19/04/2017 at 9:24 AM, VeinCrawler said:

I've made a LOT of Duke3D maps years ago (the Crucial Conflict series, for one).

 

Holy shit! Maarten Pixten! I love your maps, I even uploaded them all on Megaton's Workshop. I had no idea you were active in the Doom community (or still active at all anywhere really), do you have a list of maps or mods you've made for it? I'd definitely be interested in trying them out.

I hope you reconsider making a map for DN3D, after Alejandro coming back it'd definitely boost up the spirits if you re-appeared as well.

Since your last map, Mapster32 has appeared and added tons of small features which make mapping faster and more convenient compared to the original Build.

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^^^^ Pretty much that.

 

I think I've heard people commenting on UDMF Doom mapping taking a lot of time, but from my experience, it still goes way quicker than working in Build. Duke 3d mapping came first for me - I've decided to give Doom mapping a spin first somewhere around when Doom Builder came out (I couldn't image working without a 3d mode), and it felt like going on a holiday after a hard days work ;) Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Doom mapping is easy, but I think the actual "technical implementation" of level geometry and mechanics goes way faster and smoother. Not having to worry about the shade, texture panning and scale for every surface and sprite is a lot less weight to carry.

 

Also speaking of Doom Builder - I've been using Build (And later Mapster) since I was a kid, so I'm used to it, but to be bluntly honest, I think it's a great example of a "programmer mindset" - it has all the functionality you'll need, but the user interface is terrible. Eduke32 version has already been improved in a great number of ways, but UI changes would most likely require making a new editor totally (ugh) or major edits to the old code it has build upon (double ugh) so I can't blame them for not doing that. Then again, most of the people who continue doing Duke3d mapping are old hardcore guys who might not want a new interface ;)

 

I think that the complexity and the learning curve of the UI are the things that scare away new mappers the most.

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On 4/19/2017 at 2:24 AM, VeinCrawler said:

such as the sound things, floors-over-floors, sticking things to a wall like posters and graffiti, revolving doors, and so on and and so on

If you're not already, you might want to give mapping for GZDoom a shot, since it can do all of these.

 

Granted, the "sticking things to a wall" is kinda cumbersome if you use an actual thing instead of, say, a decal, but still.

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3 hours ago, Cage said:

UI changes would most likely require making a new editor totally (ugh) or major edits to the old code it has build upon (double ugh) so I can't blame them for not doing that.

 

 

UI changes are necessary if they want Duke3D mapping to have a future. It's much more important than to release new EDuke32 versions frequently, as they do.

If they don't do it, I hope somebody else will. 

Edited by Mike800

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57 minutes ago, Arctangent said:

If you're not already, you might want to give mapping for GZDoom a shot, since it can do all of these.

I'm participating in the Texture Extravaganza project, which will pull me from the comfortable, laid back limit removing into Boom territory. First things first, I'm getting old.

 

8 hours ago, methy said:

I hope you reconsider making a map for DN3D, after Alejandro coming back it'd definitely boost up the spirits if you re-appeared as well.

I need to go back to college if I wanted to do that. Back then I had no day job, and no kids.

Edited by VeinCrawler

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If only MaxEd's DukeBuilder was still an active project rather than a burst of spite (slap me if he happens to prove me wrong after writing this).

As someone with no experience in Duke mapping other than toying around with the editor for 5 minutes, I can say mapster is not something I wish to see again.

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1 hour ago, YukiHerz said:

If only MaxEd's DukeBuilder was still an active project rather than a burst of spite

I always got the feeling he was never serious about it to begin with.

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