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Death Egg

"UMAPINFO" discussion

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Posted (edited)

Huh, it isn't doing the name stripping? I'm not sure how this is supposed to work at all then -- GZD's lump-name behavior differs from all other ports, and it isn't on all the other ports to implement a vendor-specific override for this (e.g. eternity could do the opposite thing and add an ee_automap_name, but then every other port would have to do this).

 

EDIT: Now that I see where Ferk's coming from now (sorry for the back and forth), yeah, the path of least resistance here is to add a "LevelPrefix" property or somesuch that's prepended to the name on the automap, and have GZD ignore it in favor of the lump name (it's no worse a deviation than its current behavior :P )

 

It's either that or enable the level-name-stripping in GZD, imperfect as it is. It won't catch deviations like Freedoom's "C1M1" but the 99% use case is just fine. Better than being stuck with "MAP01: level 1: ..." or having no level number at all in non-gzdoom ports.

Edited by Xaser

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9 hours ago, printz said:

It's not attitude, it's different opinion, that's why other ports exist.

 

 

No, in this case it's mere attitude. You got a feature presented and your reaction was flat out refusal to implement it as presented in the spec and as implemented by the reference engine. That's simply not how specs are supposed to work. If everybody was to treat them this way there'd be no interoperability ever.

 

As a compromise, how about this:

 

Have a separate property in the map record, called "Label". If that is not empty, use it in the automap as the part before the ":". If not specified, use the map lump name instead

 

Also, your opinion that the map lump name is an internal matter is simply wrong. I don't know how many console commands in Eternity refer to it, but in ZDoom-based ports, 3 come to mind immediately: "map", "changemap", "mapchecksum". So it is useful information for the player.

 

 

9 hours ago, printz said:

- sky2

- skies' speeds

- lightning effects

- fadetable (not sure Eternity has it, but it should have it eventually).

- hub system (Eternity seemingly has neglected this feature, but it must have them…)

 

Sure, but with 'fadetable' I'm a bit ambivalent. This is a classic software-rendering lock-in feature. I think it'd be more useful to add a fade color and generate the fog maps on the fly, like ZDoom has been doing for 20 years. That way you don't have to manually create fade maps for every fog color, i.e. for the mapper it's a lot easier to use - especially when being combined with colored lighting (as you'd have to create a separate colormap for each light/fade combination.)

 

There hasn't been a single ZDoom-based map ever using a custom fade table - even though the option exists in MAPINFO because Hexen needs it, but there have been countless maps using different fade colors.

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Posted (edited)

For my own two cents, for a naive mapper's perspective on this, I should note that for my own mapset, I had just assumed the engine would prepend the map name to the automap, and didn't realize it was actually a hard-coded part of the string in the vanilla executable (and thus modified as such with DeHackEd patches).

 

The proposed additional parameter of "Label" or "AutomapLabel" or whatever the final wording comes to works for me, but I don't intend to really use it unless I absolutely have to to continue getting what I'm already getting: the map's lump name verbatim. I can certainly see the use for people who want to be cute with the names and say things like "Level 1" instead of "MAP01", though.

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23 minutes ago, Shadow Hog said:

For my own two cents, for a naive mapper's perspective on this, I should note that for my own mapset, I had just assumed the engine would prepend the map name to the automap, and didn't realize it was actually a hard-coded part of the string in the vanilla executable (and thus modified as such with DeHackEd patches).

 

That's my standpoint here as well. Just because it was originally done differently does not mean that the original way was actually a good and useful way to handle this thing and needs to be preserved at all costs, including inconveniencing potential users. In fact, many things were done very inefficiently with Doom (think about all that graphics-based text that's so hard to localize) and it'd be a lot easier if this stuff could just be tossed out (which sadly it can't.)

 

There's also another issue to consider here: In ZDoom, display of the map label on the automap has been a user option for many years, i.e. you can set it to show the label or to hide it, or to only hide it when in a hub. Forcing everything into this string removes that option.

 

As for the "different name on automap vs. intermission screen" thing, is this really important? It happened twice in Doom originally, but it is doubtful it was intentional, it looks like the classic case of development bug where the thing was changed but thanks to an inefficient asset duplication, only one of the two instances was changed.

 

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Posted (edited)

Yes, creative freedom on level naming matters, even if I'm in the minority here. Don't force mappers to lose stuff offered by Boom BEX.

 

As I said this is why we have several ports, and it's tiny details like this I want to retain in EE, because this is what it's for, even if many users don't need it, a few may appreciate it. 

 

I'm fine with map names lacking their tag in Eternity (it's a pointless spoiler) but map authors should be encouraged if they want to tag them.

Edited by printz

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14 minutes ago, printz said:

Yes, creative freedom on level naming matters, even if I'm in the minority here. Don't force mappers to lose stuff offered by Boom BEX.

 

As I said this is why we have several ports, and it's tiny details like this I want to retain in EE, because this is what it's for, even if many users don't need it, a few may appreciate it. 

 

I'm fine with map names lacking their tag in Eternity (it's a pointless spoiler) but map authors should be encouraged if they want to tag them.

 

What about my compromise offer? That should satisfy everybody without forcing modders to jump through redundant hoops.

 

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Posted (edited)

Is the +1 reaction to the comment a sign that finally an agreement was reached? :)

So, is the "Label" field the approach that will be taken?

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

What about my compromise offer? That should satisfy everybody without forcing modders to jump through redundant hoops.

 

I'm fine with the "Label" field, yeah, that's cool enough. On Eternity it will just work as a concatenation.

4 minutes ago, Altazimuth said:

And what about maps that don't want a label at all?

In case "Label" is missing, for Eternity I would still not display "LUMPNAME:" in the automap — it looks cleaner without it. But maybe it should appear in the console (you probably only go to console to cheat or do master control stuff).

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1 hour ago, Altazimuth said:

And what about maps that don't want a label at all?

"Label = clear" should probably fill this niche of "explicitly don't display anything here".

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2 hours ago, printz said:

In case "Label" is missing, for Eternity I would still not display "LUMPNAME:" in the automap — it looks cleaner without it. But maybe it should appear in the console (you probably only go to console to cheat or do master control stuff). 

 

Let's rather define this *properly*, so that the mappers can decide. Most of the time they want this displayed.

Shadow Hog's suggestion is on point here and fully in line with other features that can be reset to nothing.

 

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2 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

Most of the time they want this displayed.

Speaking of I have a feature suggestion I'll save for the moment, but I just wanna say don't hard-code any defaults too hard.

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Posted (edited)

Honestly, it might be better to get feature suggestions out now while discussion's active rather than holding your peace.

 

I know I still want NoCrouch and NoJump, although given the discussion on an enhanced format standard brought up a theoretical "JumpStrength = x" variable (because apparently, but understandably, the jump height isn't consistent across all Doom source ports that implement it), that might be preferred (with "NoJump" being superceded by "JumpStrength = 0", or maybe it'd be better to override JumpStrength entirely with NoJump? IDK.).

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9 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

Let's rather define this *properly*, so that the mappers can decide. Most of the time they want this displayed.

Shadow Hog's suggestion is on point here and fully in line with other features that can be reset to nothing.

 

A missing label specification should mean "whatever, just display my level's name". 

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Assuming you mean that as in "don't display MAPxx and just show the map's title", no, that is definitely not the behavior I was expecting to see...

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12 minutes ago, printz said:

A missing label specification should mean "whatever, just display my level's name". 

 

No, a missing label specification should do what the spec demands you to do in this case. If the spec states that it wants to see the map lump name instead that's not open to interpretation, especially if there's a clearly defined case for not showing the label at all.

 

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Posted (edited)

Why not define that case as well with a value for Label too?

Something like "Label = lump" to automatically prepend the lumpname.

 

Then have the specs indicate that the default for "Label" might be different in different engines. People can define it properly by including the field if they actually want it to be consistent across engines, or just leave it out and let each engine use their preferred way of showing it.

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Can be done, but there still needs to be a default. And I am quite sure that, if we asked the community, the consensus will be to use the lump name.

BTW, in all those 20 years, nobody ever complained that ZDoom replaced the 'level xx' part with 'MAPxx' on the automap in Doom 2. I think that's saying a lot about what people want here: Some information what map plays right now, the exact presentation does not really matter, as long as it is obvious.

 

I am convinced that leaving it off is bound to draw complaints like "Please show the number/name of the current map, please!"

 

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That sounds like a nightmare. I'd really rather this behavior be consistent across ports.

 

I definitely get the appeal of allowing modmakers to change it away from the lump name if they so chose to, because that's a thing DeHackEd let you get away with and the inability to do it would be a step backwards. That's fine. I don't get why the default has to be not showing any label at all if this new "Label" field is not populated, though.

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5 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

Can be done, but there still needs to be a default. And I am quite sure that, if we asked the community, the consensus will be to use the lump name.

BTW, in all those 20 years, nobody ever complained that ZDoom replaced the 'level xx' part with 'MAPxx' on the automap in Doom 2. I think that's saying a lot about what people want here: Some information what map plays right now, the exact presentation does not really matter, as long as it is obvious.

 

I am convinced that leaving it off is bound to draw complaints like "Please show the number/name of the current map, please!"

 

Well I don't agree with such a spec. And I'm not a frequent ZDoom player, instead I choose the minimum engine. And most of the time I see Dehacked level name mods which often lack the label. And as a player I find it looks much cleaner this way. I don't want to see future wads with the label tacked on unless it's decided explicitly. 

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As a mod maker, I don't want to be forced to explicitly include the label just to have it appear. This feels like it's passing the buck onto me for no apparent good reason.

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@Printz:

 

The solution for that would be an engine option where you can explicitly select if you want to show the label or not. I have added such an option to ZDoom a long time ago because I did not like the defaults of the time (map label on for single maps, map label off for hub maps) and chose to add more end-user-friendliness, even though all *I* wanted was to force the map label on.

 

What I absolutely do not like are "solutions" that defer the entire mess to the mod makers with no sane default that makes most people - players and modders - happy. But that's precisely what you seem to prefer here.

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I will say one thing for this discussion: I genuinely had never noticed Doom 2's default labels were "LEVEL 1" etc. and not "MAP01" etc. until this fact became a sticking point. So, that's one positive thing that came of it, I guess? TIL.

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Posted (edited)

I expect this would also be the case for a few other values.. like for example the nocrouch/nojump options would likely behave different in different engines when not specified. Engines might even want to override it in some cases, to let users explicitly enable jump, while other ports might want to not allow users to jump at all if the map doesn't want them to... and others might not want to have any way to enable jump at all (because it wouldn't even be supported). The fields would be more of a guideline of what the mapper wants, but ultimately it's up to the engine.

 

The option to hide the label adds another level of indetermination since now engines will not only behave different from one port to the next but also will behave different depending on what their settings are and what does each engine choose as a default for its own settings.

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3 minutes ago, Shadow Hog said:

I will say one thing for this discussion: I genuinely had never noticed Doom 2's default labels were "LEVEL 1" etc. and not "MAP01" etc. until this fact became a sticking point. So, that's one positive thing that came of it, I guess? TIL.

I noticed that immediately, because first thing I did was look in the automap because I was curious how the levels are coded (and instead saw level x). 

 

Then I saw Quake which totally forwent labels and I liked that much more. 

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I mean that's nice, but I would really rather something being there be the default, with the option to disable it on the user's end should they prefer that look, as you do.

 

I'm with you insofar as this additional field could be used to change it to something non-standard. I'm really not with you on the standard then being "nothing at all".

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I'm pretty much settled how I'll implement it. I'll also talk to @Altazimuth on it. No more reason to argue before we see it occur in practice. Even later updates may fix it if it looks broken after all. It's not game breaking at all, and no real information gets lost, so we can afford to break specs on this detail. 

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24 minutes ago, printz said:

so we can afford to break specs on this detail. 

 

No, you can't. If you do not want to adhere to the spec (even though not written yet because I was hoping on some consensus), better drop the feature in its entirety. It's no fun trying to tweak something to an intentionally broken implementation, even if it is something as seemingly inconsequential as the map name display on the automap. Congratulations then, because to me this sounds like all the talk and attempt to compromise was for nothing.

 

So, with that I think we can just forget about the "label" field because its purpose was to provide a defined standard everybody could adhere to without compromising their vision. Since that didn't work out, consider the feature dropped, I see no point supporting something that isn't uniformly handled in all ports and ultimately not really needed. All things considered, map name display on the automap works fine in both my PrBoom fork and in GZDoom, so the ball is in your field now. If you don't want to pick it up, please deal with the mess yourself.

 

Well done! :(

 

 

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My two cents on the topic of map label: the wiki.

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Posted (edited)

 

18 minutes ago, Gez said:

the wiki. 

 

I assume "Hub 1: Badlands" in GZDoom has the "Hub 1:" as part of the actual level name instead being the label, and GZDoom defaults to not show the label in Hexen in an attempt to workaround its own assumption that it's the lumpname what should be prepended and not a custom string that coincidentally could match the lumpname.

 

I expect you'd get "MAP45: Hub 1: Badlands" when the option is forced to show the lumpname (which is inconsistent with the name used in the wiki). Just like how you get "E1M1: C1M1: Outer Prison" in Freedoom. Since there's no Label option, I guess there's no way in GZDoom to avoid this unless the WAD tries to set it as default to not show the lumpname, similar as it's automatically done in Hexen's workaround.

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