How do YOU use new monsters?

[Phade102]

Hey all, not really an editing related question so I figured i'd just put it in the discussion area instead.

 

I am interested in using some new added monsters in the wad i'm making. However, I wanted to get a general opinion from the community of people that have used new monsters before.

 

How do you personally use them? do you just throw them straight in a players face, or do you wait for a unique encounter that basically makes them come as a complete unexpected surprise?

[Deadwing]

I've used some new monsters in some quite old material I've released. Though in my first try it didn't work well, I think I was more successful in Nevasca, which I tried to keep specific roles for each new monsters while replacing old ones with similar roles. Also, it's quite easy to give some big hp pool to these new guys, which I recommend to avoid, because it will slowdown the pacing a lot.

 

As for introducing them, if they have very specific attacks, it's more interesting to slowly teach the player to how to deal with them. So in first reveal I would prefer an situation were the player has the territorial advantage and can take some time and resources. After a while, you can be more audacious and use them in more difficult situations.

[Zemini]

Only the hardcore vanilla nazis complain about new monsters.  This game is too old to be only killing the same monsters over and over.  At the very least, change their color for new variants.

 

For me, I enjoy killing them AND using them.  Just as long as they stay withing the Doom art style.

[Chezza]

Don't go overboard with them otherwise they can be great. It adds that bit of uncertainty and could fill non existent roles with new mechanics. I quite like the D3 Wraith and zombie scientists found on realm 667.

 

There are lots of exciting custom monsters you can add but just test them out and think hard about their usefulness.

[baja blast rd.]

I generally prefer to see them introduced in ways that make sense narratively and thematically. Memorable first-time reveals are also a plus. Skillsaw's Valiant, if you've ever played it, is a masterclass on custom monster usage. Play the first two maps of Lunatic by the same author if you want a very quick lesson: its custom monsters are revealed in a pretty cool way. Skillsaw recently released the scraps of Valiant in a collection known as Sawdust, and one of the first things that I noticed is how much more haphazardly the custom monsters are used. It's basically a R667 dump compared to Valiant, no doubt part of why these maps hit the cutting room floor. 

 

You should also think about whether a monster is intended to be a 'common/natural enemy', which can be largely dictated by the primarily theme of a map(set). A  mapset with a very clean 'futuristic' tech theme might be able to freely introduce all sorts of plasma zombies, cyber barons, chainsaw scientists (lol), and drones -- and by 'freely' I mean the mooks might be casually placed everywhere but the zanier or upper mid-tier monsters might still appear first in their own mini-boss sort of reveal. But if you were to introduce a cacolantern (lol) or a pyro knight in such a set, you might need to take greater efforts to make it fit. 

 

Edit: Also, if you want to talk about custom monsters in terms of gameplay as well, then I can share some of my thoughts in that too.

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by rdwpa

[Da Werecat]

5 hours ago, Zemini said:

Only the hardcore vanilla nazis complain about new monsters.

People typically complain when they think the new monsters are shit, or they aren't used very well. It happens, unfortunately.

 

5 hours ago, Zemini said:

This game is too old to be only killing the same monsters over and over.

Chess is older.

 

Familiarity is your friend if you want to set up some hard encounters without having to educate the player on the new monsters' strengths and weaknesses.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not advocating for banning all custom monsters or whatever, because some people will want to see it that way. Just throwing some thoughts out there.

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

On 5/1/2017 at 5:44 PM, Zemini said:

Only the hardcore vanilla nazis complain about new monsters.  This game is too old to be only killing the same monsters over and over.  At the very least, change their color for new variants.

The real reason people complain about new monsters is because... most of the time they are completely useless.
And they also fucks up compatibility with gameplay mods. If you load enhancement mods (specially Brutal Doom, Beautiful Doom, or Smooth Doom) these new monsters sticks from the rest with their lack of new gibs and particles (and smoother movement in case of BD and SD) like a sore thumb, and on top of that you get people pestering you to make it compatible with said mods (although I found a way for BD21 to detect and replace the entire Realm667 rooster with Vanilla equivalents). And for what reason? What's the point of adding 20 variants of small low-health humanoid monsters if they behave exactly like imps? More is not always better, think of how Call of Duty has 80 weapons variations (when actually only having 6 weapon categories that works different from each other) and 20 enemy "types" with the exact same AI and health points. Adding new monsters "because you can" is the same equivalent thing for Doom.

Adding new monsters are only justifiable if you are adding a monster with a completely new behavior that offers a completely new gameplay perspective from the rest of the rooster, or a new final boss, or sub-bosses. Or obviously if you are making a TC. If you are making a regular techbase level with vanilla Doom textures, just think, why should you add a rapid fire zombie if a chaingunner would do the same job just fine?

[Zemini]

1 hour ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

The real reason people complain about new monsters is because... most of the time they are completely useless.
And they also fucks up compatibility with gameplay mods. If you load enhancement mods (specially Brutal Doom, Beautiful Doom, or Smooth Doom) these new monsters sticks from the rest with their lack of new gibs and particles (and smoother movement in case of BD and SD) like a sore thumb, and on top of that you get people pestering you to make it compatible with said mods (although I found a way for BD21 to detect and replace the entire Realm667 rooster with Vanilla equivalents). And for what reason? What's the point of adding 20 variants of small low-health humanoid monsters if they behave exactly like imps? More is not always better, think of how Call of Duty has 80 weapons variations (when actually only having 6 weapon categories that works different from each other) and 20 enemy "types" with the exact same AI and health points. Adding new monsters "because you can" is the same equivalent thing for Doom.

Adding new monsters are only justifiable if you are adding a monster with a completely new behavior that offers a completely new gameplay perspective from the rest of the rooster, or a new final boss, or sub-bosses. Or obviously if you are making a TC. If you are making a regular techbase level with vanilla Doom textures, just think, why should you add a rapid fire zombie if a chaingunner would do the same job just fine?

 

I try not to make useless monsters honestly.  Yes I do make variants (which are usually modified from realm667) that play a part in the story.  For instance I use Green Slime Imps in places where there is toxic waste and I made a Ice Imp in one level that has a underground Ice Cavern.  Each one of the 5 imp variants have a specific set of skills over the other.  I have made several variants almost every monster but here are the imps for example.

 

1.  Imp - Vanilla

2.  Slime - faster projectiles and speed.  Mainly shown in toxic area's.

3.  Dark - homing missiles, used as "commanders" within a horde of regular imps and used more on harder difficulties.

4.  Ice - unfinished, but I hope to make ice projectiles slow the player down.  Found in ice levels.

5.  Hellish/Red - Hard hitting projectiles, found in lava/hellish areas.

 

My ultimate goal is to randomize encounters and locations.  The harder the difficulty; the more monsters and a higher chance for stronger variants.

 

As far as gameplay mods, I would make it compatible if I was capable;  I might consider dissecting BD lite in order to make things run smoother.   But for the most part, my current mega wad is made just for GZDoom and if a user is upset that it doesn't work with BD then that is their problem.  I don't think most map makers should expect their wads to run with every mod on the planet.  Otherwise it just hurts peoples aspirations and creativity.

 

[Phade102]

13 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

The real reason people complain about new monsters is because... most of the time they are completely useless.
And they also fucks up compatibility with gameplay mods. If you load enhancement mods (specially Brutal Doom, Beautiful Doom, or Smooth Doom) these new monsters sticks from the rest with their lack of new gibs and particles (and smoother movement in case of BD and SD) like a sore thumb, and on top of that you get people pestering you to make it compatible with said mods (although I found a way for BD21 to detect and replace the entire Realm667 rooster with Vanilla equivalents). And for what reason? What's the point of adding 20 variants of small low-health humanoid monsters if they behave exactly like imps? More is not always better, think of how Call of Duty has 80 weapons variations (when actually only having 6 weapon categories that works different from each other) and 20 enemy "types" with the exact same AI and health points. Adding new monsters "because you can" is the same equivalent thing for Doom.

Adding new monsters are only justifiable if you are adding a monster with a completely new behavior that offers a completely new gameplay perspective from the rest of the rooster, or a new final boss, or sub-bosses. Or obviously if you are making a TC. If you are making a regular techbase level with vanilla Doom textures, just think, why should you add a rapid fire zombie if a chaingunner would do the same job just fine?

Well, I'm thinking of using a whole bunch of different Baron variants. such as the Cybrusier, and the BrusierDemon. These barons add something very different to the gmaeplay, as they require to to rework your stratergies to handle their various new attacks. But I agree, I dont add new monsters that fill the role of one of the vanillia monsters, that just seems pointless to me.

[Chezza]

On 5/4/2017 at 5:00 AM, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

And they also fucks up compatibility with gameplay mods. If you load enhancement mods (specially Brutal Doom, Beautiful Doom, or Smooth Doom) these new monsters sticks from the rest with their lack of new gibs and particles (and smoother movement in case of BD and SD) like a sore thumb

 

Speaking of which, I'm happy to see you are including the Zombie scientist variants in your new BD build. I did put them in my wad and they looked out of place with their single death animation.