DOOM 2016 turns a year old in two days!

[DMPhobos]

14 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

I would really like to see a Horde Mode.

To be fair, if there's something that snapmap it's really good at, it's at creating horde mode maps

[TAPETRVE]

All I want is a standalone add-on, like The Old Blood, that brings back a more surreal, horror-like atmosphere to contrast the tech-and-wasteland scenario in the main game.

[DooM_RO]

7 hours ago, DMPhobos said:

To be fair, if there's something that snapmap it's really good at, it's at creating horde mode maps

 

Not really, most Snapmaps feel really off.

[massivefanofdoom]

On 5/13/2017 at 3:41 PM, Jaxxoon R said:

Don't hold your breath.

You make a hold your breath post further up and felt the need to tell me not to do that, what is it with you and my posts? Are you this obnoxious irl too?

[Jaxxoon R]

I'll get back to you on that in another 14 days.

[massivefanofdoom]

On 2017-5-27 at 9:01 AM, Jaxxoon R said:

I'll get back to you on that in another 14 days.

Make fun of my late replies all you want, I only speak the truth. You are very weird guy, being a hypocrite here, which I pointed out. And just salty with me for some reason.

[Guest MIND]

It's been a year since this game that I anticipated so much was released. I truly thought this would be a groundbreaking game with it's SnapMap being wildly popular and everybody using it and commenting on it with insane Multiplayer. I thought it would be as big as Doom and Doom 2 were in the 90's but for the 2010's. I thought I'd be having a blast making my own custom maps with my own custom textures like in ZDOOM or DoomBuilder.

 

Well, none of that happened. 

 

The campaign was solid but there is NO community for this game. It's dead. Nowhere close to being a new generation Doom 1 or 2. SnapMap is a lame thing with certain presets you can use. The logic system is confusing as shit. I've seen a few impressive maps but those guys REALLY had to think outside of the box and trick the in game system with glitches and whatnot to make it fun. Using player blocking volumes to make new environments. 

 

Cross-Platform compatibility ruined it for PC gamers. They had to dumb it down for console gamers to make it more accessible. Good business move but shit for people who want to make new things.

 

If anybody at ID is reading this, I say STOP releasing lame DLC and GIVE US MODDING TOOLS so that we can really do some interesting stuff. I want to put my own textures and music in. Draw out my own rooms. Not use some lame presets. I feel like everytime I play a new SnapMap I say to myself "Hey, I've been here before" or "Hey this looks really familiar.

 

The campaign was fucking excellent. The music? Excellent. The campaign gets a 5/5. SnapMap get's a 2/5 for how lame it is. Multiplayer get's a 2/5 for how dead it is now.

 

We can only hope that this sequel they make is much better and lets us do more.  

[Bauul]

1 hour ago, MINDustry said:

It's been a year since this game that I anticipated so much was released. I truly thought this would be a groundbreaking game with it's SnapMap being wildly popular and everybody using it and commenting on it with insane Multiplayer. I thought it would be as big as Doom and Doom 2 were in the 90's but for the 2010's. I thought I'd be having a blast making my own custom maps with my own custom textures like in ZDOOM or DoomBuilder.

I suspect you had your expectations set somewhat too high!  You really thought it could possibly compare to just how big Doom was in the 1990s?  A game that was installed on more PCs than Microsoft Office was?

 

I think most of us here expected it to be pretty crap to be honest: a second rate facsimile of Doom with more in-common with Call of Duty.  The fact the single player turned out pretty great was good enough for us.

 

Yes, I also wish they'd bundled a proper map editor in like they did with Doom 3, and SnapMap doesn't even come close to comparing, but I'm not going to look gift horse in the mouth too much when we got as good a single player as we did.

[Guest MIND]

30 minutes ago, Bauul said:

I suspect you had your expectations set somewhat too high!  You really thought it could possibly compare to just how big Doom was in the 1990s?  A game that was installed on more PCs than Microsoft Office was?

 

I think most of us here expected it to be pretty crap to be honest: a second rate facsimile of Doom with more in-common with Call of Duty.  The fact the single player turned out pretty great was good enough for us.

 

Yes, I also wish they'd bundled a proper map editor in like they did with Doom 3, and SnapMap doesn't even come close to comparing, but I'm not going to look gift horse in the mouth too much when we got as good a single player as we did.

Yeah dude, I really thought they would make a next gen version that was THAT good. I don't know why they failed. With all the new technology we have now.

 

Doom 3's editor is kind of complex. I was thinking more of the Doom 1 and 2 editors.

 

I don't even feel like using the SnapMap anymore. In fact it's pretty depressing how much I was thinking about it being amazing. The logic chains are too confusing and I feel like it's an insult to my intelligence. I should've waited until the game lowered in price if I knew it was going to be this bad. I was really looking forward to this thing and thought since Bethesda was such a good company, they would do the game justice.

[Bauul]

7 minutes ago, MINDustry said:

Doom 3's editor is kind of complex. I was thinking more of the Doom 1 and 2 editors.

I think you greatly underestimate how complex it is to make modern 3D shooters.  You have two options: a prefab based editor like Snapmap (which is actually more feature-rich than almost any similar example) or a full-blown map editor.  Doom3Ed was actually pretty simple as far as they went - one for Doom 2016 would necessarily be more complex.

 

There's just no way you could create something as simple as DoomBuilder for Doom 2016.  

[Guest MIND]

6 minutes ago, Bauul said:

I think you greatly underestimate how complex it is to make modern 3D shooters.  You have two options: a prefab based editor like Snapmap (which is actually more feature-rich than almost any similar example) or a full-blown map editor.  Doom3Ed was actually pretty simple as far as they went - one for Doom 2016 would necessarily be more complex.

 

There's just no way you could create something as simple as DoomBuilder for Doom 2016.  

It might be feature rich sure, but it feels like pre-selected plastic.

 

How do I make levels for Doom 1 and 2? I have the games on Steam but do I have to download anything to start?

[Bauul]

5 minutes ago, MINDustry said:

How do I make levels for Doom 1 and 2? I have the games on Steam but do I have to download anything to start?

Well you've come to the right place for advice!  There a load of tutorials out there, including on YouTube, just search.

 

In a nutshell though, you need the following things:

• A map editor:  DoomBuilder 2 is a simple one to start with, but a little basic.  GZDoomBuilder is much more feature rich (it's like DoomBuilder on steroids) but is a little more intimidating to start on.
• A modern source port if you want to utilize all the features of a modern PC.  If you're not precious about a perfectly retro experience, GZDoom is the most widely used, but there are plenty of others.
• The "Doom2.wad" or "Doom.wad" file from your Steam directory.

The most challenging part about mapping for Doom is learning the nuances of the Doom engine and map format.  It's not complex per se, but it is idiosyncratic.

[Guest MIND]

2 hours ago, Bauul said:

Well you've come to the right place for advice!  There a load of tutorials out there, including on YouTube, just search.

 

In a nutshell though, you need the following things:

• A map editor:  DoomBuilder 2 is a simple one to start with, but a little basic.  GZDoomBuilder is much more feature rich (it's like DoomBuilder on steroids) but is a little more intimidating to start on.
• A modern source port if you want to utilize all the features of a modern PC.  If you're not precious about a perfectly retro experience, GZDoom is the most widely used, but there are plenty of others.
• The "Doom2.wad" or "Doom.wad" file from your Steam directory.

The most challenging part about mapping for Doom is learning the nuances of the Doom engine and map format.  It's not complex per se, but it is idiosyncratic.

Well, it ain't like Doom 2 is going anywhere anytime soon. "The graphics are bad" isn't a good enough excuse. The graphics are fine. I guess it's great that we have archives so that we can go back.

 

Thanks.

[Guest MIND]

7 hours ago, Bauul said:

I think you greatly underestimate how complex it is to make modern 3D shooters.  You have two options: a prefab based editor like Snapmap (which is actually more feature-rich than almost any similar example) or a full-blown map editor.  Doom3Ed was actually pretty simple as far as they went - one for Doom 2016 would necessarily be more complex.

 

There's just no way you could create something as simple as DoomBuilder for Doom 2016.  

It's feature rich but at what cost? All the freedom is taken AWAY from the player. That's not what makes for a good game. The reason DOOM has lasted as long as it has is because of it's mod community.

[Trycon]

There's a thing to be said about having less freedom. People get creative and try to work around the restrictions. Trying to make the editor do something that it wasn't designed for. Using the logic system in ways that id didn't think of.

 

The most recent example of this is the Trials editor in the Trials series. People have made a first person shooter mode, Chess, Pong and much more in an editor made for 2.5D platform racing.

 

While I would agree that having modding tools would be amazing and do wonderful things for the game. I can also understand why id didn't release them, the learning curve would be too steep for most people and only the experienced and determined would get anything out of it.

 

Don't be too harsh on Snapmap. Not too many AAA games nowadays ship with an in-game editor, let alone mod tools. Be grateful that you got at least something to work with.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Trycon

[Bauul]

5 hours ago, MINDustry said:

It's feature rich but at what cost? All the freedom is taken AWAY from the player. That's not what makes for a good game. The reason DOOM has lasted as long as it has is because of it's mod community.

You were the one that was complaining Doom 3's editor was too complex. I was just saying you can't really have it both ways: you can't complain Snapmap is too limited but also don't want something as complex Doom 3's editor. It's basically one or the other.

[Maes]

How about finally making the IWADs of the original games free as an anniversary surprise? I don't believe any other videogame franchise has been milked the way Doom has for over 20 years. Titles that were much more expensive to make back in the day, like C&C and Starcraft, and even much newer titles, eventually saw a full free release. Of course, to be fair, ID always opened up its engines, rather than the assets of its games (and I think even later titles like Quake, Quake II, Quake III etc. remained just as closed).

 

Of course now that id no longer owns the full copyright to their own creations, it's not really their call anymore, but one can always hope.

[Guest MIND]

11 hours ago, Bauul said:

You were the one that was complaining Doom 3's editor was too complex. I was just saying you can't really have it both ways: you can't complain Snapmap is too limited but also don't want something as complex Doom 3's editor. It's basically one or the other.

Doom 1 and 2's editors are just right. There can be a happy medium you know. 

[Bauul]

1 hour ago, MINDustry said:

Doom 1 and 2's editors are just right. There can be a happy medium you know. 

The editors reflect the engine.  If Doom 2016 was created on a 25 year old engine that only had a partially functioning Z-axis, then the editor would be as simple as DoomBuilder.

 

It is simply completely unrealistic to expect a modern 3D shooter to have a level editor as simple as DoomBuilder.  It just isn't feasible.  If you thought Doom 3's editor was complex then Doom 2016's editor is going to be five times more complicated by simple virtue of that fact it's for Doom 2016.

 

I'm all for wishing id would release the full toolset for Doom 2016 (I agree Snapmap is a pale imitation), but hoping it'd be as simple as DoomBuilder is just lunacy.  I wish it wasn't true, but this is just the facts of modern game development.  Advanced engines need advanced editors.

[Maes]

2 hours ago, MINDustry said:

Doom 1 and 2's editors are just right. There can be a happy medium you know. 

And none of them ever were official or shipped with the engine, for that matter. Or always as easy to use as Doombuilder. Try making even a simple room with two sectors in DEU and see what I'm talking about.

[Chezza]

I'm impressed with Snapmap albeit a bit disappointed in the extreme load time, separation from main menu, size limitations, weak community engagement and memory limit. However I understand why it's the way it is. I made a map I'm proud of utilizing a good portion of its functionality without attempting to break its rules.

 

I'm hoping the next installment of Doom will improve a little in all fields. Snapmap is fine but I cbf testing random maps due to the inconvenience, poor quality or repetition.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Chezza

[Caffeine Freak]

In the Reddit AMA that Marty Stratton, Hugo Martin and Robert Duffy did, one of them explained that part of the reason it wasn't feasible to ship the full editor with the game was that the way the levels are prepared (vast amounts of collision data, a certain level of prebaked lighting, among other things) means that not only would someone need a vastly powerful system to make levels like they do in the game, but they would also need to be able to upload gigabytes of data, and people wanting to play custom levels would need to download all of that as well.

 

And really, for what? Most modders and mappers wouldn't be able to effectively utilize all of that in a way that made it worthwhile, so you'd end up doing multiple GB downloads for custom maps that mostly have amateurish gameplay, from mappers who wouldn't know how to effectively use many of the advanced tools anyway.

 

Honestly, I can see why id went the route they did with Snap Map. It's simple, easy to learn, lean and effective. And even if it is limited in some ways, that won't stop a truly creative and resourceful designer from making something awesome.