Pointless argument about Wolf3D on SNES vs Wolf3D on Genesis

[Doomkid]

 

So, this video is obviously interesting, but the comments are annoying me (why am I reading the comments?)

 

People simply cannot grasp the fact that the SNES version really isn't using the hardware to it's full extent. Here's a sample of a typical interaction when trying to explain why this comparison is extremely unfair:

 

Me: Well, this comparison is pretty unfair, one was a shitty rushed licensed port done essenitally as a cash grab, the other was done 20 years later purely out of hobbyistic passion. If someone did a homebrew port from scratch for the SNES, I'm sure it would be essentially the same.

 

Random person: wrong... if it were released at same time it would run the same as the video shows. It has nothing to do if it was done 20 years later... it uses the same hardware and same limitations. Otherwise by your argument all SNES fanboys should not compare snes games vs sega genesis becauses the sega genesis was released 2 years BEFORE the snes. when doom came out sega was on the market for more than 4 years and believe me programmers at that time know really well how to code... the only thing beneficial of been done 20 years later is that coild be done by one person. I lived all thkse years I was 13 years old so i know very well what was capable of each console. Do you know red zone for sega genesis? it will blow your mind what the genesis could do. The truth is bith consoles were great and the differences between them were very small

 

Me: Are you ignorant dude? Here's what you said: "if it were released at same time it would run the same as the video shows. It has nothing to do if it was done 20 years later..." Uhhh, have you ever played an official port of an FPS game from 20 years ago? They were rushed pieces of shit that didn't utilize the hardware to it's fullest at all. Programmers did awful ports for cash back in the day. When a person has lots of time to familiarize themselves with the hardware and isn't just doing it as a 9-5 job for money, they have time to learn how to use the console to it's fullest capability, time that the makers of official ports back then never bothered to put in. The Genesis fan-made one we see here is making proper use of the Genesis hardware. The official SNES port we're seeing here was a rushed cash-grab (like all 90s console FPS ports) and isn't utilizing the SNES to it's fullest at all. If you want proof that your little "the programmers would have done a 100% perfect port 20 years ago" claim is wrong, just look at Doom for 32x. It's a pile of fucking garbage. Doom can run way better on 32x than the official port would have you believe. Hell, Doom can run faster on SNES than the official port would have you believe. You're talking out of your butt. Man, I'd love to see a fan-made SNES port of Wolf3D just to prove how much better it could be.

 

(small excerpt removing loads of absolutely irrelevant banter)

 

 

So uhh, I just wanted to hear your thoughts on this completely random and pointless yet highly entertaining (to me, anyway) discussion. Am I actually correct in what I'm saying here? Does anyone have anything to add?

 

All that shit aside, homebrews are fucking cool and people should make more of them.

[Jayextee]

"Rushed pieces of shit" theory aside, there are other factors to take into consideration; hardware is more thoroughly-documented (if you know where to look), the Wolf 3D source code is available, homebrew coders generally do not work to deadlines, etc etc.

 

I agree that homebrews are cool (hell, I had a homebrew version of Lemmings on DS that played so damn well with the stylus!), but making a thread about some moron in YouTube's comments section? Really? May as well start to describe your daily poop, bro. :P

[Doomkid]

Oh come now, you don't think any fellow Doom/Wolf nerds would find such a topic interesting on any level? I'm sure there's more to be said about homebrew ports than my layman ass knows of. Besides I've seen threads about exponentially more vapid shit than this countless times, at least there's some potential discussion to be had here!

 

EDIT: Besides, thread title was a full disclosure, I even made sure to put "pointless argument" in it. :P

Edited May 12, 2017 by Doomkid

[Jayextee]

SNES version allowed circle-strafing IIRC. So it wins over the default 3-button Genesis/Megadrive version (even if the 6-button controller supports it because SHOULDER BUTTONS) so it's all moot anyway. :P

[Doomkid]

lmao that is an excellent point. A lack of circle strafing is a sure way to instantly kill the fun of any classic FPS!

 

Side note here, but I think the SNES version of Doom was just two tiny tweaks away from being a pretty legit home console port - The addition of circle strafing and removal of the annoying input delay. I think these were design/programming flaws more than they were a result of hardware limitations, despite what so many other laymen-who-pretend-they're-experts on the net claim. It would still have a small viewport and limited colors of course, but that's not really the stuff that ever bothered me, just that god awful control!

[ShoDemo]

Guys I can say this.

Firstly, @Doomkid, you had valid arguments to state your answer in the comments, which makes it hard for someone to state the opposite. A great example you could also use on shitty ports of FPS games is Doom1 vs Doom2 on the GBA (the first one was severely cut down and slow, while the second was excellent). Unfortunately, that discussion happened in youtube, so every 10 year old could just come in and say their opinion and demand that it is taken as a fact, when in reality it may be bullshit. Another thing that should be addressed here is experience:

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

I was 13 years old so i know very well what was capable of each console. Do you know red zone for sega genesis? it will blow your mind what the genesis could do. The truth is bith consoles were great and the differences between them were very small

What bothers me is people tend to play it experts in a topic, even if they researched it on a surface level. Having lived in the WW2 era wouldn't have necessarily made me a WW2 veteran, neither would I have the knowledge I get from reading a history book. Similarly, I wasn't even alive during the <<SNES vs Genesis (Megadrive here) Wars>>, but I know many things about it from researching and I could never say one console is better than the other.

Finally, I agree with how he closes the text, though I get the feeling he was a Sega fanboy in that time, which might be why his judgement is clouded, in my opinion. 

Edited May 12, 2017 by ShotgunDemolition

[Jayextee]

Possibly a better "back in the day" comparison would be to pit SNES Wolf 3D against Gen/MD Zero Tolerance. Similar engines (save for ZT's diagonal walls, WHAT IS THIS WITCHCRAFT), but ZT is freskishly-letterboxed and the scaling is ugly as sin. Dem features tho (honestly, I consider ZT to be the better game even if it's an ugly mofo next to SNES Wolf 3D).

[40oz]

2 hours ago, Jayextee said:

a thread about some moron in YouTube's comments section? Really? May as well start to describe your daily poop, bro. :P

 

We should be talking about both and not neither.

 

About the argument, I dont know a whole lot about the hardware of consoles. I haven't played anything on either in a while, but i recall both consoles being able to do a few things better or worse than the other. He probably could have made a more rational argument if he asked for clarification on what you meant than opening up with "wrong" based on his interpretation of your words. I'm siding with you of course because being involved with a modding community, we both know the difference between a hobby project and a licensed port. The goals are different. The hobbyist is working for results, the licensed porter needs to do enough to secure a paycheck. Also its a stretch to claim that comparing a funded port and a hobby project that are twenty years apart dismisses the comparison of the two consoles that dominated its market because they're two years apart. Saying you can't compare a dinasaur to a person is not the same as saying you can't compare a teenager to an adult.

[Nine Inch Heels]

2 hours ago, ShotgunDemolition said:

<<SNES vs Genesis (Megadrive here) Wars>>, but I know many things about it from researching and I could never say one console is better than the other.

Simple: The genesis/megadrive has the faster processor, the SNES is better in every other respect, vastly better even. That makes the SNES the objectively superior console all things considered, and you don't even need to be a coding genius to understand that.

 

The question therefore arises if there was a way wolf3d would ever have stressed the genesis' inferior hardware components to a point where you could actually discern this hardware stress. If not, both consoles should be able to run wolf3d equally well, though the SNES-version would play better, because of the superior input device. Since there is a somewhat sufferable doom-port for the SNES, that runs at a playable pace, it's safe to say that a proper fanmade wolf3d port would probably make use of the resources untapped on the SNES, meaning said port would comfortably allow for enhanced textures and better music/SFX than is the case on the genesis.

[Jaxxoon R]

Wolf3D was programmed in C, right? I recall the 68k being rather "C-friendly" unlike the 65C816, (along with the ability to do 32-bit math_, which would probably go a ways to making the porting job a bit easier. I'm not sure how many Genesis games used C at the time, other than Ecco the Dolphin.

 

One thing to note though is that despite its lower clock speed, the 65C816 had to wait fewer clock cycles between outputting instructions than the 68k.

[ShoDemo]

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Simple: The genesis/megadrive has the faster processor, the SNES is better in every other respect, vastly better even. That makes the SNES the objectively superior console all things considered, and you don't even need to be a coding genius to understand that.

Sure, but don't forget we are talking about consoles here. When choosing which console is superior, we have to worry about games and in this case different genres for each console (example: JRPGs were mostly for SNES, while darker-looking fighting games and shoot em ups were mostly for the Genesis) , difference in time of release (the SNES came afterwards, so it was bound to be better in everything, but Sega tried to keep the Genesis for two generations, so they brought it to themselves eventually -double edged dagger right here-), soundtracks (the SNES was better by leaps and bounds here), performance (the Genesis was, as you said, somewhat faster, not by much though), e.t.c. 

Don't get me wrong, I would probably have picked a SNES if I lived back then, but that would be, because its games would suit my interests more and I would enjoy its soundtracks more. Someone else, might not like the SNES for that reason and instead prefer more action heavy games with additional gore and no censorship (that was always be a minus for Nintendo). I think it is a matter of choice really. Where I want to end up is that there is no right or wrong answer here. It depends on you as the player what you pick.

[Nine Inch Heels]

7 minutes ago, ShotgunDemolition said:

Sure, but don't forget we are talking about consoles here. When choosing which console is superior, we have to worry about games and in this case different genres for each console

No, we don't have to worry about that, because the point of the argument is centered around the idea of a wolf3d port, which makes the consideration of genres a non-argument for this purpose.

 

The selection of genres, or rather the console's library of games is not indicative of said console's actual performance in regards to games. Better overall hardware is better overall, if you play mario-kart or mortal combat.

 

10 minutes ago, ShotgunDemolition said:

Someone else, might not like the SNES for that reason and instead prefer more action heavy games with additional gore and no censorship (that was always be a minus for Nintendo).

If there's anything the genesis could score with, it was the vastly superior library of sports games available, but that's pretty much all there is to it. SNES had a doom-port, which the genesis didn't get, afaik. Both consoles had mortal combat, primal rage (I believe was on genesis and SNES as well) and different street fighter versions. The SNES also had some pretty "mature" shmups, like Axelay, R-type I-III, Gradius/Parodius and quite a nice selection of beat'em ups that improved on the SOR formula, or worked at least somewhat similar. The argument that the genesis is a console aimed more at "adults" may have been true for a while, but it sure was not an argument that would last a long time, especially not when you consider for how long and often Sonic has been the Genesis's mascot of choice.

 

Both consoles had a right to their existence, but as you already said, the SNES came later, thus was probably going to be superior (and it is), hence the case in point is that the SNES has more wiggle room for a fan-made wolf3d port with better features. Why? Because the better console is better.

[MFG38]

Apologies for getting off-topic, but:

 

5 hours ago, Doomkid said:

homebrews are fucking cool and people should make more of them.

I whole-heartedly agree with this. As a huge fan of the PS1 myself, I'm quite saddened by the lack of homebrew games for that system, let alone proper ones with physical copies and all. I know there's quite a community around (S)NES homebrew development, but I for one would love to see something for the PS1.

[Blastfrog]

3 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Simple: The genesis/megadrive has the faster processor, the SNES is better in every other respect, vastly better even. That makes the SNES the objectively superior console all things considered, and you don't even need to be a coding genius to understand that.

Wrong, nothing is ever that simple.

 

The Genesis not only had a faster CPU, but also less bottlenecks. Most people assume the marketing term "blast processing" referred to the CPU's speed, but it actually referred to the DMA controller.

 

Both consoles had 256 pixel modes, Genesis had a 320 pixel mode and SNES had a 512 pixel mode. SNES might sound better on paper, but consider this: most SNES games used 256, most Genesis games used 320. Why did so few games even touch the 512 mode on SNES? Because that would require twice as many tiles, not only being a performance issue for sprites, but also requiring far more memory.

 

Wanna talk about color and blending modes? SNES for the most part has Genesis beat, but it's not all black-and-white, there were ways to compensate on the Genesis. First of all, dithering was extremely effective on the Genesis, because its higher resolution, especially when seen through blurry composite. Right off the bat that gets you easy transparency and the appearance of far more than 64 unique colors. On the SNES, you'd still see the individual pixels alternating because it's 25% lower res. The Genesis also had the ability to set any given pixel to have highlights or shadows, which is better than nothing when it comes to having actual blending modes.

 

As for sound, again, SNES might seem better on paper, but there are caveats. SNES had an excessively strong lowpass filter applied to the output in general, so it sounded really muddy. It might have been sample based, but there was very, very little memory that you could actually use for samples, meaning that devs were often forced to use low quality and short duration samples. The Genesis sounded very crisp, and FM is much more flexible than samples, despite also being more limited.

[ShoDemo]

5 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

No, we don't have to worry about that, because the point of the argument is centered around the idea of a wolf3d port, which makes the consideration of genres a non-argument for this purpose.

If we are comparing the consoles based on the wolf3d port only, then I have to agree that performance is what matters most.

 

5 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

The argument that the genesis is a console aimed more at "adults" may have been true for a while, but it sure was not an argument that would last a long time, especially not when you consider for how long and often Sonic has been the Genesis's mascot of choice.

Well, I think that people turn this argument mostly against Nintendo, because Nintendo always had some more light in colours games as their main ones, coupled with happy characters (Link and Samus are from the more serious ones I can remember right now). Of course they also had some <<heavier>>, but I can surely say not as many. On the other hand, the Genesis didn't have so many mascots in its lifetime and when it started out it might have had all these titles that were new to everybody at the time. These may seemed like <<The man's games>>, but only a select few had characters memorable enough to become mascots of the company in the long run. And from these mascots, all are practically <<dead>> today, except Sonic and his crew, that ended up being a joke (I am talking about Sanic), while Nintendo manages to have over 100 games on Mario alone and they never get boring. And I have to say: Nintendo is seen, even today, as a company for kids (at least in my country, where everyone is a Playstation fanboy), but its characters are put to good use every time a game is released with them in mind. In the end that is what matters.

5 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Both consoles had a right to their existence, but as you already said, the SNES came later, thus was probably going to be superior (and it is), hence the case in point is that the SNES has more wiggle room for a fan-made wolf3d port with better features. Why? Because the better console is better.

Ok, if we are talking only about specifications, then, sure, the SNES was ahead most of the time, if we leave aside the CPU and I agree it was naturally so. But your ending sentence is, I think, somewhat absolute (if that's the right word) and I can't agree fully on a console being better in this comparison, even though we had this discussion already. It is too general as a sentence and while it is valid for the most part, it is sometimes false. I mean, if the SNES was the better console in every way, nobody in their right minds would buy a Genesis, right? Ok, you can say about the commercials here to counter me, like <<Blast processing>> or <<Sega does what Nintendon't>>, but still the market wouldn't have been split half, from the encounter of a 2 year old console with the <<new kid to the block>> just with the marketing of the console.

I guess we all have our opinions. :) 

[Nine Inch Heels]

3 minutes ago, ShotgunDemolition said:

But your ending sentence is, I think, somewhat absolute

 

6 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Because the better console is better.

I think the term is unfalsifyable.

 

I get where you're coming from though. If we take a step back from the numbers and look at it from the perspective that each console has its own "strength" and "weakness", it's safe to say that there will always be differences when a game is taylored to use the hardware to it's limits. Hence these differences will be in favour of certain, individual preferences.

 

Me personally, I feel like the games that came out on genesis and SNES usually played better on the SNES though. Maybe I'm a fangirl without knowing it... ;-)

[ShoDemo]

No, you are not a fangirl. If you were a fangirl we wouldn't be discussing peacefully right now, same if I am or was a fanboy (I guess we are all Doom fanboys here anyways). It would just be a spam war. But now, I learned things by reading what you posted or I remembered (for an example, I didn't know the SNES had good shmups or additional fighting games like Mortal Kombat and I forgot the Genesis sports games even existed, because I generally hate it as a genre). I remember being a fanboy 8 to 10 years ago and then the revelation happened to me. I returned to my roots once again (had a PC at the age of 5, later consoles and since that time a PC).

Also, now that I started thinking clearly again, I totally agree on what you said about multi-platform games. Yeah, games like Street fighter 2 and many others, looked better on the SNES, because of its power when compared directly to the Genesis. But when you put them alone, every system is king on playing the same game. So maybe exclusive titles (I despise this term) were what pushed the Genesis in the eyes of the consumer (just now I thought of that possibility).

I honestly don't know anymore. I should leave these two consoles do their own thing and probably do something else instead. :D

17 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

I think the term is unfalsifyable.

Thanks for the correction.

 

P.S.: If there are two things I regret, the second is missing a Mega Drive on sale with Sonic for 30 euros and the first is missing a SNES on sale for 20 euros (Christ Almighty, what a low price that was) and now I can find one for 90 euros on EBay (damn it).   :-(

[Albertoni]

Psst, protip: Reference them to the Duke Nukem 3d Genesis port. Yes, that exists. Yes, I believe it was licensed. But damn, is it choppy. Also, I believe this is the most graphically advanced Genesis game: Star Cruiser. It has polygons and raycasting going on at the same time, without additional hardware. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yND5V85iPHc

 

Anyway, I'll just leave a pair of graphical demos for the consoles so you guys can feast your eyes on them:

 

[Gerardo194]

What???? I didn't know that a Wolf 3d genesis version existed :O

[geo]

Now have Duke Nukem Genesis take on Duke Nukem GameCom

[Wild Dog]

There is nothing to compare.  One is a homebrew port made by somes fans 20 years later, with better more time, more tech and more information about how the hardware works...  The other is a commercial  port made to get some easy money and let's not forget they making it for what was NEW Hardware at the time....

[Negostrike]

Genesis Wolf3D plays just like the original for MS-DOS in a 386 or something. Very well made. Of course, it's a homebrew made some 20 years later.

[Jayextee]

Will concur that it's a well-made homebrew. This topic inspired me to go download the thing and I'm impressed.

 

Just wish I had an Everdrive or similar device to play it on actual hardware, because damn. <3

 

I'm also wondering what the chances of porting something like Klooni to the console are...

[Koko Ricky]

Here's something relevant: Specs of both systems. The Genesis has fewer onscreen colors (64 as opposed to 256) and fewer possible colors to choose from (512 as opposed to 32k+), but its clock speed is quite a bit higher and it has a bit of ROM (later models) whereas the SNES has none. In terms of raw processing power, the Genesis seems a touch more capable. I don't think it's particularly surprising that you can get smooth FPS action from it. 

[Blastfrog]

17 hours ago, GoatLord said:

The Genesis has fewer onscreen colors (64 as opposed to 256) and fewer possible colors to choose from (512 as opposed to 32k+)

As I noted earlier, don't take the raw specs too literally, as in practice there are many more factors at play. A Genesis game will never manage to look as colorful as a SNES game, but it can manage to come pretty damn close.

 

The higher resolution combined with the blur of composite video output made dithering extremely effective to the point where you could barely notice the alternating colors. SNES only had 80% of the horizontal detail, thus you could see the individual pixels more clearly, making dithering far less effective.

 

SNES is superior on paper, but in practice (especially considering the caveats of contemporary hardware and video standards), the difference between the systems became more of a tradeoff than one clearly being better than the other.

 

Here's a good example of effective and prevalent use of dithering on the Genesis. Note that this video doesn't have an NTSC filter on it, I picked it for the "raw" image to demonstrate how the artists used dithering.

 

 

[Albertoni]

2 hours ago, Blastfrog said:

A Genesis game will never manage to look as colorful as a SNES game, but it can manage to come pretty damn close.

Pretty sure there were some hacks in the later life of the console to push more colors than 64. Don't know if it reaches the full 256 colors of the SNES, but...

 

Still, I wonder if some enterprising hacker couldn't pull out a variant of this trick, which made a 16-color display output 1024 colors: http://8088mph.blogspot.com/2015/04/cga-in-1024-colors-new-mode-illustrated.html

[Quasar]

On 5/12/2017 at 4:26 AM, Doomkid said:

Me: Well, this comparison is pretty unfair, one was a shitty rushed licensed port done essenitally as a cash grab

This whole thread and nobody seems to have called out this mistake? The SNES port of Wolf3D was developed at id Software and programmed by John Carmack...

[Linguica]

9 minutes ago, Quasar said:

This whole thread and nobody seems to have called out this mistake? The SNES port of Wolf3D was developed at id Software and programmed by John Carmack...

I don't see how that contradicts anything he said.

 

edit: except the "licensed" part obviously

[fraggle]

I forget where I read this (it doesn't appear to be in "Masters of Doom") but didn't the id team take time off from developing Doom to finish off SNES Wolf3D? I distinctly recall reading that they essentially finished Spear of Destiny, started moving on to Doom, then had to go back for a month or so because the SNES port wasn't finished, so it makes sense that they would have rushed it. Plus it's pretty well-documented that their artistic vision for the game was compromised because Nintendo demanded they strip out all the controversial aspects of the game (blood, shooting dogs, nazis, etc.) so I doubt they were particularly motivated to hold it to their normal quality.

 

EDIT: Turns out it's in the Doom postmortem, here.

[Doomkid]

I have no idea why I used the term licensed, official would have been more accurate. Fraggle has already clarified but I remembered reading that Carmack/Romero/ID overall was like "ugh" at the thought of taking time away from Doom to make a censored version of Wolf3D so they slammed it out quickly as possible