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Erick194

[Update V2] PSXDOOM / PSXFINALDOOM / DOOM64 on Gzdoom [GEC] Master Edition. DEC 17 2018.

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12 hours ago, Erick194 said:

Well, I think there is no need to take the black bar out, consider the following images please

No, I won't consider the images that follow, because most of them make objectively incorrect assumptions, and I know better than to make said assumptions and instead research how the game worked on the real hardware in the region it primarily targeted (meaning NTSC, not PAL). Just because some popular emulators get it completely wrong doesn't mean you should too.

 

Not only do I have a good amount of knowledge of these kinds of technical trivia, I can also say from experience how it actually looks; I used to play PSX Doom on an almost-daily basis on the real hardware, on an NTSC CRT TV. The black bar was clearly not meant to be seen, why would it be there for any reason other than to compensate for overscan?

 

The game was clearly not designed to be seen in 256x240, that just happened to be the video mode used. With the 8:7 ratio pixels* (on NTSC, which the game targeted and not PAL), 256x240 is somewhat taller than 4:3. With amounts of TV overscan typical of the time period, this meant that you that could see about the entire width of the image (not much more or less), but that the top and bottom 8 lines were, without any doubt, unused waste.

 

*which is an inarguable fact, these things are well documented.

 

You mention that no$psx shows 224 lines out of 240**, you thought that had something to do with PAL, that was actually the visible area of NTSC. In PAL, you could see about 264 lines out of 288. Overscan meant that you did not see the full image vertically, because this was simply how CRTs worked. It was not like nowadays where the entire image was visible. No offense, but you literally have no idea what you're talking about, you don't have enough experience in this area like I do, therefore you should defer to me on this matter, as I have the necessary knowledge.

 

**which is actually the correct view area, you should use no$psx as a reference and not ePSXe.

 

If you leave it like it currently is, you are objectively damaging the accuracy of the project. Please don't do this.

 

Edited by Blastfrog

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Who fucking cares about the stupid aspect ratio?  It's their project; if they want to use the emulator screen resolution as a base then that's fine.  This project doesn't need to be THAT precise.

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20 minutes ago, Impboy4 said:

Who fucking cares about the stupid aspect ratio?  It's their project; if they want to use the emulator screen resolution as a base then that's fine.  This project doesn't need to be THAT precise.

What's with everyone getting so defensive when someone brings up the accuracy of these type of projects? It's like you get annoyed the more accurate it is to the original lol makes no sense.

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Here we go again with the eternal "accuracy is better" topic. These types of games recreated on a sourceport can't be an exact 1:1 copy because of internal codes on the branch, different behavior or something like that. If I want to play the original game, I'd do it. In the meantime, if you can't play the original game in the original hardware, then the only option is to play it on a sourceport. Not all recreations has to be perfect if you're having fun with the game. Just deal with it...

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Look at Calico Doom, it does the right thing. Jaguar Doom was 320x240, but Calico shows 320x224. So here, obviously, you should show 256x224.

 

1 hour ago, jdagenet said:

What's with everyone getting so defensive when someone brings up the accuracy of these type of projects? It's like you get annoyed the more accurate it is to the original lol makes no sense.

This, so very much this. It's a very easy change, and a very sensible one at that. It's foolish to ignore such a simple thing in a project that advertises maximum possible accuracy.

 

1 hour ago, Impboy4 said:

Who fucking cares about the stupid aspect ratio?  It's their project; if they want to use the emulator screen resolution as a base then that's fine.  This project doesn't need to be THAT precise.

Because it's still a significant (and easy to fix) inaccuracy in their project. The black bar beneath the status bar is ugly and useless (let alone not actually present on-screen in the real game on real hardware). Even Jaguar Doom and 32X Doom had such a bar, but you weren't supposed to see it there, either. Not to mention that the world in PSX Doom already looks very squished vertically compared to PC Doom, showing all 240 lines is even more squished than actual PSX Doom was.

 

I care, because they advertise accuracy. I don't care if other people don't care, I want what's advertised. If the project does not take reasonable and trivial steps to ensure accuracy, they should not advertise it as an accurate project.

 

This is so plain, I don't understand why you people can't see where I'm coming from here.

 

54 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

Here we go again with the eternal "accuracy is better" topic.

It's not even remotely "eternal" in this case. The incorrect aspect ratio and lack of overscan is literally the only inaccuracy in this entire project that I can see in the videos. There is every reason to do it and no reason not to.

 

54 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

These types of games recreated on a sourceport can't be an exact 1:1 copy because of internal codes on the branch, different behavior or something like that.

You literally don't know what you're talking about, you shouldn't make false statements so boldly like that, actually do some research first. Support for customizing the aspect ratio of both 2D screen elements like the status bar and the proportions of the 3D world has been in GZDoom for years. I keep saying it's a trivial change, I'm not kidding when I say that.

 

54 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

If I want to play the original game, I'd do it. Just deal with it...

If I want to play a port that is advertised to be as reasonably accurate as possible in the existing feature set of the engine it was based on, then I want it to be just that and not something lesser.

 

1 hour ago, cyan0s1s said:

Because most people don't suffer from Sodaholic's type 2 autism.

You can fuck right off, you're not contributing to the discussion in any valid way. Don't start shit with me.

Edited by Blastfrog

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It's not your decision to apply these changes; the project creators have full right to use their own methods.  If you really want it changed; you can do it yourself when it's done or just make your own mod.  Nobody nagged Kaiser about the aspect ratio when he did Doom 64 EX so you shouldn't nag about the aspect ratio for this project either.  So sit down, shut up, and move on.

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22 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

You literally don't know what you're talking about, you shouldn't make false statements so boldly like that, actually do some research first. Support for customizing the aspect ratio of both 2D screen elements like the status bar and the proportions of the 3D world has been in GZDoom for years. I keep saying it's a trivial change, I'm not kidding when I say that.

 

Really? Then I'll ask this. Did you make a mod or a TC or have you tried to make one? Because I'm assuming that you have the necessary skills to do one and thus proving your point on that comment....just saying. 

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2 hours ago, Impboy4 said:

It's not your decision to apply these changes; the project creators have full right to use their own methods.

Oh I see where this is going: "don't question the author, just like it. Don't even think about suggesting something or you'll get flamed on hard."

 

Rofl I'm not sure if I'm getting memed or what but that is definitely, 100% not how you run a project lol.

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Suggestions are always appreciated but it's up to the creators to actually take those suggestions or not. Maybe for future versions of the game can be applied but that's something for later, I believe.

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It's a shame that you people are making some kind of argument about it and dog-piling on me. Your counterpoints all suck and you should all go away unless you have actually have something valid to add (so far not, and I fear that may not change). I was only really intending to talk to the authors about this, i.e. people that actually (otherwise) do know what they're talking about (and also happen to be making the project, so there's that too).

 

Boiling it down: there is an easy tweak to ensure accuracy, Calico Doom (a port of Jaguar, which PSX was based on and was too designed to run on NTSC TVs) makes this exact same easy tweak. I have notified the creators, so at this point there is nothing left for anyone to do but for them to implement the correction. None of you are helping anything by arguing with me about it, if I wanted to argue with anyone about it, it would be the project creators.

 

It's simple, people. I may be a slight jerk, but you're all being ignorant. At least I have a valid concern and the technical knowledge to correct it, all you people have are poorly thought out rebuttals for an issue that isn't actually your concern anyhow.

 

31 minutes ago, jdagenet said:

Oh I see where this is going: "don't question the author, just like it. Don't even think about suggesting something or you'll get flamed on hard."

 

Rofl I'm not sure if I'm getting memed or what but that is definitely, 100% not how you run a project lol.

Ah, nice to see some refreshing sanity from the only other sensible person active in this thread at the moment.

 

42 minutes ago, Impboy4 said:

It's not your decision to apply these changes; the project creators have full right to use their own methods.

That goes without being said, captain obvious. I'm not demanding that they make these changes, I'm merely saying that they'd be fools not to take this one suggestion to show 224 lines instead of 240, for a number of reasons. Need I spell them out in a list, now, so you'll understand?

 

1. It's objectively more accurate.

2. It's a trivial change that would take like 2 minutes of editing some text variables.

3. They advertise accuracy, and it is wrong to advertise what your project is not.

 

I'll bet you if anyone else was saying the same things I am (and perhaps less arrogantly), people would listen quite closely. Forget about the messenger, the message is important. Heed me in this one particular case for the rational reasons listed above, if for nothing else.

 

42 minutes ago, Impboy4 said:

Nobody nagged Kaiser about the aspect ratio when he did Doom 64 EX so you shouldn't nag about the aspect ratio for this project either.

Guess why? Because the N64 already uses almost exactly square pixels in 320x240. There was nothing to tweak; what little technical difference the N64's pixel ratio had compared to true 1:1 square is less than 0.01%, so Doom 64 EX was done right from the start, no issue there.

 

It doesn't take overscan into account, but there's less reason to support it there since the whole screen is a proper 4:3 ratio, unlike PSX that used the entire width, but had a taller ratio where anything past the 4:3 area was objectively considered unused waste.

 

In fact, Doom 64 EX was based on a PC source port, so if anything, he already did correct the aspect ratio to be like the original game to use square pixels. IIRC, even the Absolution TC still used tall 5:6 pixels, so do GZDoom 64 and Brutal Doom 64.

 

42 minutes ago, Impboy4 said:

So sit down, shut up, and move on.

How about not? If anything, you're the one who has spewed irrational crap this entire time, I'm merely pointing out how you're wrong.

 

38 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

Really? Then I'll ask this. Did you make a mod or a TC or have you tried to make one? Because I'm assuming that you have the necessary skills to do one and thus proving your point on that comment....just saying. 

Yes, I have, actually. I don't release most of my stuff, but I am a reasonably skilled modder, even if a lazy one that never properly finishes much. I have worked on TCs and I have even started some of my own. I'm a power user in my areas of interest, I don't dabble.

 

I mess around with this kind of stuff all the time. I even built an extra computer with a unique video card (ArcadeVGA) for the express purpose of playing PC games and emulators output at proper 240p 15khz RGB, run through an RGB arcade to TV converter on a CRT TV. I even play around with custom video modes (I have one of the older ArcadeVGA cards from back when they let you do that, sucks that they cut it in later iterations).

 

I absolutely know what I'm talking about when it comes to aspect ratios and overscan, so unless you can prove anything I'm saying wrong with independent research, please assume that I'm correct (because I am).

 

27 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

Suggestions are always appreciated but it's up to the creators to actually take those suggestions or not.

Okay, but this is less of a subjective "suggestion" more than it is an objectively correct statement about how they can easily get closer to achieving what is advertised. I have no delusions of authority, but I can say in full confidence that they'd be wrong not to make the change.

 

27 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

Maybe for future versions of the game can be applied but that's something for later, I believe.

This change literally takes no effort, all you have to do is edit several lines of text. This is not a change for later, it should be done before release, preferably now.

Edited by Blastfrog

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15 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

I have no delusions of authority, but I can say in full confidence that they'd be wrong not to make the change.

Well...the creators have the last word ;)

So, when the mod is released, you'll realize if your suggestion was implemented or not. 

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18 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

Yes, I have, actually. I don't release most of my stuff, but I am a reasonably skilled modder, even if a lazy one that never properly finishes much. I have worked on TCs and I have even started some of my own. I'm a power user in my areas of interest, I don't dabble.

I remember this project back on the ZDoom forums in the day, and as far as authenticity was concerned it started strong then promptly went all over the place before ending up like the other alpha/beta projects (harder to pull off than initially thought, lack of outside help, author went turbo etc.). Shame, some things just aren't meant to be I guess.

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Aspect Ratio can be the 1% out of 100% we can ignore and leave out.  Everything else is fair game.

 

Now to pull this topic back out of the Pit of Derail; Erick194 and/or Gerudo194 for the Doom 64 part of the project; will Doom 64 EX custom maps be compatible? If not, will there a way to convert them?

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I'm a little weary of the same dudes starting the same tonedeaf shit flinging contest in every Doom64 thread. Cut it out, you guys. No one finds this helpful.

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1 hour ago, Gifty said:

I'm a little weary of the same dudes starting the same tonedeaf shit flinging contest in every Doom64 thread. Cut it out, you guys. No one finds this helpful.

I'll admit that I'm not being helpful either by responding (and arrogantly too, but to be fair I'm dealing with some legit bullshit from these people so of course I'll be at least a little irritated). Worth noting that it's impboy who turned the discussion south to start with.

 

1 hour ago, cyan0s1s said:

I remember this project back on the ZDoom forums in the day, and as far as authenticity was concerned it started strong then promptly went all over the place before ending up like the other alpha/beta projects (harder to pull off than initially thought, lack of outside help, author went turbo etc.). Shame, some things just aren't meant to be I guess.

Sincerely thank you for contributing to the thread constructively instead of tossing out insults again.

 

I abandoned the project because I didn't understand the Doom Bible as well as I think I do now, and I knew it at the time. I started taking a lot of liberties with the art/texturing style, the level layouts, things in the levels, etc, and in ways that I regretted. I thought that I had taken the project too far in the wrong direction (feeling like some random ZDoom mod instead of a proper adaptation), so I abandoned it.

 

It's not something that I take seriously, but I have thought about starting a new one up again, someday.

 

The following may contain bits of drama, but it's relevant. I want to put my position out there, but please refrain from discussing it in this thread.

Spoiler

It's probably not a good idea to dredge this up again (the dude did fuck up, though, and it shouldn't be forgotten), but speaking of regrets with that project, it's a shame I gave it to someone who put everyone at risk with an ethically questionable fundraiser. Not to mention that he's quite unapologetic about it.

 

First of all, how does anyone know he'd have used all of the funds for the project and not pocketed some extra? Second, imagine the implications to the whole community if Zenimax caught wind of it. It'd put us all under the microscope and open up a larger chance of them C&Ding mods. And people still work with him. Oh well, I couldn't have known at the time.

Edited by Blastfrog

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The PSX TC Administrators at it again it seems.

Suggestions are fine. BUT you gotta accept that fact the the Author can say NO.

 

I Guess now I understand why they wanted to keep this project under wraps for so long.

Edited by jazzmaster9

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12 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

I'll admit that I'm not being helpful either by responding (and arrogantly too, but to be fair I'm dealing with some legit bullshit from these people so of course I'll be at least a little irritated).

Don't look at me man :)

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19 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

Worth noting that it's impboy who turned the discussion south to start with.

I did nothing of the sort. You were the one who made it go south. I was just giving my opinion on the matter.

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1 hour ago, jdagenet said:

Oh I see where this is going: "don't question the author, just like it. Don't even think about suggesting something or you'll get flamed on hard."

Nope this is "I can't accept the fact that the author said NO to my suggestion"

Maybe you can pass this drama on another PSX thread that will make them listen.

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21 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

BUT you gotta accept that fact the the Author can say NO.

And I do accept that. That doesn't stop me from harping on about it until it becomes clear that I cannot convince them. And I hope that this simple change for the simple reasons I've elaborated on are all that it takes for them to do what is right here.

 

I say this to the authors: consider that Calico Doom takes this same problem into account and fixes it by reducing the line count to 224. Please consider imitating its sensible and correct design in that one regard.

 

To everyone else: you tend to have nothing valid to add, so don't waste my time.

 

11 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

Don't look at me man :)

While you were a little bit clueless when it came to how easily it could be done in the engine, you honestly weren't all that bad. :)

 

impboy was the one who barged in with "lol who cares about accuracy in a project that is meant to be accurate lol NEERRRDDDDS". Then cyan0s1s was being a straight-up asshole for one post. Then jdagenet showed that he was the only one who actually got it; why I was saying what I was saying, where I was coming from and how I was intending to approach the issue.

 

And then there's me who is full of piss, vinegar and snark, and is still babbling about it. :P

 

3 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Nope this is "I can't accept the fact that the author said NO to my suggestion"

Maybe you can pass this drama on another PSX thread that will make them listen.

It would've just been a civil discussion among knowledgeable techies until your type showed up. Maybe you can pass your ignorance onto another thread, you are being completely useless, right now.

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7 minutes ago, Blastfrog said:

It would've just been a civil discussion among knowledgeable techies until your type showed up. Maybe you can pass your ignorance onto another thread, you are being completely useless, right now.

Well I didn't blatantly pass drama on another thread did I ?

You know what else is useless?

Being told NO but trying to force a YES.

You made your point, they said no. Move on.

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1 minute ago, Blastfrog said:

While you were a little bit clueless when it came to how easily it could be done in the engine, you honestly weren't all that bad.

Thanks for that. After all, this is a sort of debate which all of us can contribute with something. It's not my style to talk in a bad way to others, definitely not, just giving constructive criticism and of course, ALL points and ideas are accepted or else, what's the point of this forum?. Don't you think so?

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Also, this drama has to stop, right now. I trust that the creators will do the right thing. We just have to be patient, that's all. After releasing the mod, then that will be the time when we must feedback them. 

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Looks great, guys! Can't believe you managed to pull all of this off! Hope it goes well and this thread settles down before things get a little too insane. I believe in you guys, can't wait to play it!

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Alright, alright, one last post from me in this thread (for now), I swear. I apologize, but I feel the urge to say the following.

 

22 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

Also, this drama has to stop, right now. I trust that the creators will do the right thing. We just have to be patient, that's all. After releasing the mod, then that will be the time when we must feedback them. 

I agree that all this bickering sucks. Just know that I'm not the instigator, and my tone in response to the crap is immaterial to that fact.

 

I'm just defending myself and my ideas after impboy decided to derail everything, though, and jazzmaster is the one who's still stinking the thread up with irrational garbage.

 

28 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

After all, this is a sort of debate which all of us can contribute with something...ALL points and ideas are accepted or else, what's the point of this forum?. Don't you think so?

Absolutely. It's a shame that this obvious fact isn't so clear to some.

 

30 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

You made your point, they said no. Move on.

Wow, not only are you a bad debater, you also lack a competent level of reading comprehension - they didn't give a definite "no". Why are you even bothering to waste my time? You're not even good at it.

 

I didn't interpret their answer as a definite no. Their response was more of an explanation of why they thought their version was correct. In response I have elaborated on why they are basing their decision on incorrect assumptions. All of what I said here is independently verifiable through some quick research. Beyond that first post of page 2, I've merely been trying to keep you twits at bay so you don't pollute the discussion with gross misinformation.

 

If anyone needs to "move on", it's you, you have no place in this discussion, I and the developers do, on the other hand.

 

They haven't responded to me yet since page one, and I intend to await their response to my highly rational, factual and clear reasoning. No matter which way it goes after that, I'll not bother pressing the issue. Until then, how about you all shut up instead of telling me to, because really, if you guys don't care, why derail the thread by antagonizing me about it?

 

41 minutes ago, Impboy4 said:

I did nothing of the sort.

Yeah, actually, you did.

 

41 minutes ago, Impboy4 said:

You were the one who made it go south. I was just giving my opinion on the matter.

Perhaps I dragged it down among everyone else, but you were the instigator of bullshit. I only cared about Erick's response, your little "opinion on the matter" was actually ignorant and useless; "lol who cares about accuracy in a project that is meant to be not just slightly, but actually balls-on accurate". So you really are the cause of the problem here, I was merely awaiting Erick's response, it wasn't a problem until you made it one.

 

I might be an asshole, but stupidity and ignorance should not be tolerated either.

 

9 minutes ago, cyan0s1s said:

YOUR HEAD ASPLODE

I must admit, frustrating as it is, I'm also having fun in a sick, twisted way. I also like to write walls of text. I dunno. Heh.

 

I also really, really can't stand it when people question obvious and simple facts and make an issue out of it when they say they don't even think it's a big deal. If it's really not a big deal, then what's the big deal in just applying the correction?

 

14 minutes ago, Nevander said:

lmao

Yes, indeed. :)

 

Snarky as I am, I want to note that I don't actually hate anyone in here, I view this as just silly and playful. I've been involved in actual drama, and this isn't it.

Edited by Blastfrog

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Well, thank you very much for filling page two with fights and arguments. @Blastfrog thank you for the information about with the aspect ratio but i actually don't consider making what you want me to do with the status bar becuase i have very strong reason to not to do so but if you show me with your PSX Doom TC how it should look well about NTSC TVs I might consuder it and I might do it. thank you very much for not considering the images I put here because i tool my time to read everything on the link you gave me to read.

 

54 minutes ago, Impboy4 said:

Now to pull this topic back out of the Pit of Derail; Erick194 and/or Gerudo194 for the Doom 64 part of the project; will Doom 64 EX custom maps be compatible? If not, will there a way to convert them?

As everybody knows the maps from Doom, Final Doom and Doom 64 are converted to UDMF format which there is a convertor i made to turn them into UDMF and Kaiser's Blam modified program tha convers from MACRO to ACS script. 

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1 hour ago, Impboy4 said:

will Doom 64 EX custom maps be compatible? If not, will there a way to convert them?

That same thought, there are some good maps for Doom64 EX (Some new ones that I did), but it is a lot of work to convert them and little time that I have.

The project has potential.

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Now Doom 64's way of scripting was more limited; ACS allows multiple scripts while MACRO only allows one at a time.  Since you converted all the MACRO to ACS that 'unique' feature in Doom 64 is gone unless you found a way to emulate that.

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