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rehelekretep

UV-Max on IoS/spawner maps?

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what's the UV-max policy for maps with enemy-spawners? if you dont use smart totals how do you work out if you have killed all the enemies on the map once?

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Two good examples are Shaitan's Luck map30 (which is further complicated by lots of viles and some monsters being extremely unreliable to kill) and PL2 map32. Basically, using smart totals and killing preplaced monsters at least once is generally understood to be the minimum. But it's really viles that make it a mess. From the rare Ancalagon essay in the sl30 text file:

 

Quote

The main problem about maxing this map is that there is no way to track all the kill, there are 4 viles that teleport in the map and, if they resurrect a monster that was placed in the map since the start too and you miss it, the max is supposed to be invalid. But then spawners summon more viles into the map and, as I understand from speed of doom map30 maxes being valid, their resurrections don't count.

lol

 

So basically we should nail down what to do with preplaced viles and their potential resurrections. Can't hurt to have this set in stone, even though I doubt anyone is going to go full CSI and use a lot of prBoom+ chasecam angles to prove that a preplaced vile wandered across an arena to resurrect a preplaced monster and get anyone's demo marked invalid. One possibility is that obvious preplaced vile-monster rez scenarios should be dealt with, but anything else doesn't matter. The counter to that is 'obvious' might be too subjective, and that might make it unnecessarily complicated.

 

Edited by rdwpa

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Well imagine a map with no preplaced viles. It's quite simple. If the HUD with smart totals the start shows 0/30000, you can just consider it a max when you are at 30000/30000, because IoS-spawned monsters aren't added to the count. 

 

If there are preplaced viles it gets more dicey, because the HUD will still show 30000/30000 if you have killed everything once but some of the preplaced monsters have been resurrected. (Which is why in normal maxes you'd have smart totals off.)

 

But it becomes simple again if it's decided that resurrections don't matter. 

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Nah, I think I took it for granted at first that you'd be familiar with how smart totals work in IoS maps, even though I myself didn't know until recently. :D

 

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Quote

But then spawners summon more viles into the map and, as I understand from speed of doom map30 maxes being valid, their resurrections don't count.

I can't agree with this. Their resurrections should count in my opinion. I don't think you can use Speed of Doom Map30 as a precedent. To me it sounds more like nobody ever really bothered to argue about what's going on with that particular map and it actually has a bunch of invalid maxes.

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This seems like a nitpick compared to ignoring monsters cause they are annoying to kill like in pl27. Now, on the topic, monsters spawned by ios don't need to be killed since always, about viles there are very few maps where this is a problem so a max rule can be defined for each one of them.

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2 hours ago, Memfis said:

I can't agree with this. Their resurrections should count in my opinion. I don't think you can use Speed of Doom Map30 as a precedent. To me it sounds more like nobody ever really bothered to argue about what's going on with that particular map and it actually has a bunch of invalid maxes.

If those ios spawns don't count, why should spawned vile be treated differently? It's counter-intuitive to make ressurections by spawned viles count, you probably wouldn't ever be able to proove validity of any sod30 max that way anyway.

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4 hours ago, rdwpa said:

But it becomes simple again if it's decided that resurrections don't matter.

Not that my opinion in this regard matters much, but any rule in regards to IOS maps past the above quote sounds convoluted for the sake of being convoluted.

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I don't see anything counter-intuitive.

 

There are real monsters and then there are fake spawned monsters. All real monsters have to be dead when you exit. Very simple.

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I was always under the impression that for UV-max it only mattered that each preplaced enemy is killed once, regardless of vile respawns. 

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Oh, nice to know "smart total" only shows original monster counts. I always had a feeling that messy IOS maps, you may forget something you don't notice.

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Yeah, as far as I know, there is no tool that exists that will prove that all real monsters are dead at the end of a level if both preplaced and spawned AVs can be on a map. I think it makes sense to use the smart counter in such cases.

 

That said, you could introduce a whole world of extra complexity through Dehacked patches, which can be used to spawn monsters after existing monsters die (possibly randomly if it's MBF, as in Valiant's case), presumably infinitely if a monster spawns itself upon death (I'm not sure if this is possible), and you could create even weirder cases if you had non-counted enemies spawn counted enemies. As such, you could potentially create a map that is too complicated for any reasonable rules to exist for max. :D

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31 minutes ago, Fonze said:

I was always under the impression that for UV-max it only mattered that each preplaced enemy is killed once, regardless of vile respawns. 

That is not true at all. At least in non-IoS maps all monsters except lost souls normally have to be dead when you exit.

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Lost souls arent monsters; they don't count.

 

They're waves and particles!

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Just declare that UV Max rules are UV -respawn rules on maps with monster spawners! Then mappers will be encouraged not to use the wretched things on their maps if they want proper maxes.

 

Not entirely a serious suggestion but no sillier than increasingly complex and hard to verify counting rules :)

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28 minutes ago, Fonze said:

They're waves and particles!

That means Pain Elemental spits light! Laser weapon or something like that?

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Respawns of preplaced monsters by newly spawned viles invalidating maxes? That's some nasty lawyer bullshit that would just kill the category on such a map, if you ask me.

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1 hour ago, 4shockblast said:

presumably infinitely if a monster spawns itself upon death (I'm not sure if this is possible), 

Yeah this is possible in MBF. Quick wad/bex I whipped up:

 

 

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Talking about IOS, I remember Map18 in Aaliens, so I decided to give it a run because I wasn't trying to get things done before. However... after some many 236/237 and I don't even know what did I miss, just say respawning maps are just somewhat annoying... I may knock off some dudes in the lava, so I decided to try one more time.

 

This video is out dated.

Edited by GarrettChan

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2 hours ago, RjY said:

Just declare that UV Max rules are UV -respawn rules on maps with monster spawners! Then mappers will be encouraged not to use the wretched things on their maps if they want proper maxes.

 

Not entirely a serious suggestion but no sillier than increasingly complex and hard to verify counting rules :)

this was exactly what i was thinking after rdwpa's replies; it would make things a lot easier to follow.

all the other suggestions seem a bit fudge-y

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Finally I did it... but I took a lot of wrong routes, and I'm paranoid that I would miss something. The last part, I didn't have any hope get all the kills, so I actually just desperately fire at random Cacodemons... felt like winning a lottery or something. Probably can make it to around 6 or something, but I'm satisfied. BTW, I suck at BFG...

 

@rehelekretep Thanks for putting up this topic, so I have an excuse to run this map the legit way :)

 

 

Edited by GarrettChan

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39 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

That beats the current max record. If you get a time you like (or are satisfied with that), you should post a demo for DSDA

Yeah, I knew that, but I bet Cyberdemon didn't really take his time to get the best time. Maybe one day I have the mood, I'll upload to DSDA. I do runs usually just for fun. Comparisons cause damage, at least to me, so I am mostly satisfied by beat the level.

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2 hours ago, Cyberdemon531 said:

There's no reason not to upload the demo lol

This is a confession: I don't even think I could beat this map before until I watched your run, so basically this is your work, and I questioned (mentally) about how do you know you killed everything once until I realized the smart total of PrBoom+. Forgive my ignorance, lol

 

Seriously, there are bumping into walls, going to where I don't need to and using wrong weapons kind of things, so probably I should improve, but the last one enemy is kind of like a lottery or something...

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9 hours ago, GarrettChan said:

I don't even think I could beat this map before until I watched your run, so basically this is your work,

Yeah, I'm quite epic.  hehe

 

should upload the demo though, regardless. It's always best to have all the runs out there.

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