The DWmegawad Club plays: Newgothic Movement 2 & Deus Vult II

[Nine Inch Heels]

44 minutes ago, mouldy said:

LOL @ all the "map02 start is easy peasy actually"

do you want me to demo this for you so you can see how consistantly that can be done?

[NuMetalManiak]

No mouldy is right. Also, any map that requires luck (and guess what, MAP02 is totally this in spades, I don't care what you say) sucks ass.

 

MAP03

 

Ah finally, a slaughtermap that I can actually enjoy, one that doesn't have too much unfairness apart from a few arch-vile placements and no gimmicky shit. You know, this is why I press on in certain wads, because I just know there's at least one good map in whatever set I play on, and such a map exists now. Sure enough, watching the big walls open up into the hellscape is gonna get me running around in circles, but I got through MAP18 of Sunlust loving the hell out of that, and this isn't entirely different. After all that, the interior sections can be blown through fairly quickly and without too much hassle, even with the interesting BFG trap. Red key area could've used more ammo. That final outdoor area seems nasty but only if you don't notice the snipers on the far sides first. You can run past the hell knights, all the way to the last switch, then take out the arch-viles, cacos, and cyber as quickly as possible before reverting attention back to the knights. I do hate the fact that the fences block hitscan shots though.

[rehelekretep]

nah if you take out the first 2 chaingunners its quite consistent.

of all the things to call luck-based in this mapset, picking on map02's start is quite a weird one! :D

(wait till you get to 07...)

[mouldy]

17 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

do you want me to demo this for you so you can see how consistantly that can be done?

No, but you can play it for me if you like, and I'll go do something else

[Nine Inch Heels]

43 minutes ago, NuMetalManiak said:

No mouldy is right. Also, any map that requires luck (and guess what, MAP02 is totally this in spades, I don't care what you say) sucks ass.

 

NG202-5outof6.zip

(PrBoom-plus2.5.1.4.-k)

 

Like... Of course it is luck based if you can't be bothered to practice... These maps expect players to practice, they're not intended to be played totally blind. If you say that these maps suck ass because of that, while you can't even afford these maps the courtesy of putting in the minimum required effort, I suggest you don't pass judgements like that.

 

39 minutes ago, rehelekretep said:

of all the things to call luck-based in this mapset, picking on map02's start is quite a weird one! :D

 

Haven't you heard? This is all luck based. I was obviously lucky 5 times in a row, the 6th attempt that failed is certainly the representative one... [\sarcasm]

[mouldy]

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Like... Of course it is luck based if you can't be bothered to practice... These maps expect players to practice, they're not intended to be played totally blind. If you say that these maps suck ass because of that, while you can't even afford these maps the courtesy of putting in the minimum required effort, I suggest you don't pass judgements like that.

"These maps expect", "afford these maps the courtesy", "minimum required effort". See, the thing about git-gud, is it implies an element of progression. You get better, and then you get better still, and transfering those skills is the reward for your efforts. There is no progression in "do it right or not at all", and thats where the start of this map falls down. Courtesy and effort goes both ways between player and mapper, thats why difficulty settings exist. Or not, in this case.

[Ribbiks]

31 minutes ago, mouldy said:

There is no progression in "do it right or not at all"

 

so put simply then, "git-gut" here means "acquire the skills to beat this consistently."

 

I don't care if anyone hates something for being hard (or whatever other reasons they can muster), but there's certainly an ego problem when someone keeps dying on something and their mind immediately jumps to "this is bullshit and luck based." Sure you have to "do it right," but come on, it's a hallway of imps with a RL, it's not like you have to rack your brain for a winning strategy...

 

there's virtually no luck in that start. here's a demo that beats it 10 times in a row: https://www.mediafire.com/?g41hyxxxmli3l3h

 

 

 

3) idk about this one, a bit easy and too much horizontal bar spam. I like the HK/caco horde at the end, but now that I know how to escape the cages I feel like it could be cheesed rather easily.

[NuclearPotato]

The mindset I approached MAP02 in was to treat it like an arcade game.  It might start off looking bullshit, but any game worth its salt has a method of 1cc'ing (1 credit clear; aka 1 quarter or what have you) it successfully.  It's the same principle with these maps; you just need the right strat to make it through (which is why I ultimately went to YouTube; to see how other people approached it).

 

New Gothic Movement: MAP03

Kills: 90%, Secrets 0/2

 

After the insanity that was MAP02, we cool things off here with a level that's much more blatantly Hell-inspired than the previous two maps.  The castle motif is still in force here, but it's broken up by hellish canyons that gives things a much more open feel than the tight corridors of the last two maps.  More than a few of the traps seem to have reduced spawns compared to the past two maps as well; compared to even the Spectre closet in the last map, the final battle seems downright tame in comparison (though that's probably because I decided to give the whole second half a miss after seeing just how many Archies had spawned in).  The most devilish traps in this map involve using space against you; see the BFG trap, which traps you in a confined space while Arch-viles spawn in, trying to temp you to waste your cells on them before the hoard of Revs warps in; and the march to the final switch, which has you dueling Hell Knights and Cacos in the most confined space the WAD has thrown at you so far (imp corridor notwithstanding).  Otherwise, the closest this map gets to the hoards seen in other maps comes right after you dispatch the initial enemies and open up the doors, with the mass of Revs and Imps separating you from the wide open canyon.  It's a very nice change of pace from the last two maps; I hope there's more like them as we go on.

[Pirx]

On 6/1/2017 at 7:35 AM, Demtor said:

 

Spoiler

                            No idea what this wad is all about. Never played the first one. Never even heard of it! Let’s go!

 

 

 

Map 01

gzDoom - UV – pistol start/saves

 

Hahahahaha, this was great. I loved it. Slaughter style stuff with GREAT looking textures and architecture. Just look at this beautiful thing! Gorgeous.

 

It’s hard to notice when you meet a wall of revs or start running your ass off everywhere dodging rockets and flames left and right, but I encourage you all to take two seconds to appreciate all the well crafted stuff on display here. The open sky lighting, colored pillars, curved brick halls, multi-colored steps. There is some really lovely looking symmetry as well. Even small things like the connecting steps up to walkway over the lava with really interesting windows and detailing. It’s all extremely pleasing to the eye and felt great moving through massive groups with slightly tighter hallway sections. Don’t forget about that exit. Awesome.

 

I didn’t see the SSG hiding behind the first locked in area, found it on accident when I circled back for some health, but boy did it come in handy for all of those imps, lol. I think they were supposed to pressure me from behind to move further into danger but I made really quick work of the revs in front with my RL so I was able to take my time lining up my shots. Coming off of beautiful Doom I didn't realize how much I missed the standard Doom 2 shotguns. I wish BDoom didn't change them. They feel perfect the way they are meant to be.

 

LOTS of RL use in this one. I think I could have beaten the whole map with it. There was so much ammo! I liked that there was the optional PG though and apparently a BFG, though I couldn’t figure out the secret. Not sure what that switch does and I shot a bunch of holes in the wall but all of the bricks just looked the same to me. * head scratch*

 

 

 

thanks for your screenies. the architecture is a sight to behold, but one doesn't get much time to marvel at it.

 

[mouldy]

2 hours ago, Ribbiks said:

I don't care if anyone hates something for being hard, but there's certainly an ego problem when someone keeps dying on something and their mind immediately jumps to "this is bullshit and luck based."

You need to see this from the perspective of us lowly average doomers. For us "luck" and "skill" are not entirely separate entities, we rely on a wider margin of error. Not that I was talking about luck anyway, I was talking about progression.

 

But anyway, since we are agreed that I'm allowed to complain about it being too hard, i guess there isn't anything else to say

[Ancalagon]

6 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

 

NG202-5outof6.zip

(PrBoom-plus2.5.1.4.-k)

 

These maps expect players to practice, they're not intended to be played totally blind.

Actually I think these maps are pretty fda friendly

[Nine Inch Heels]

5 minutes ago, Ancalagon said:

Actually I think these maps are pretty fda friendly

Some maps allow for an early foothold, others maybe not so much. Map 07 or map 11 don't seem well suited for FDAs compared to others in the set, I think. I'm generally more in favour of going in with some preparation though, so that's my personal bias, I suppose.

[Ribbiks]

well I guess if dotw is any indication, nearly anything is fda-able with proper foresight and quick reflexes :D

 

I don't remember 07/11 being particularly rough, unless the final versions ended up being much rougher than the ones I playtested. shall see...

[Nine Inch Heels]

22 minutes ago, Ribbiks said:

I don't remember 07/11 being particularly rough

In regards to map 11 I think it can be easy to loose track of things on occasion. The arachnotrons in particular can deliver some surprising pain at times. It doesn't have any nasty ambushes that require a deep strategy or pre-pumping anything. So, like other maps, it doesn't have any "FDA-stoppers", which I guess is what Ancalagon was about.

[baja blast rd.]

Anc likes going in dry.

 

NG2 map03

 

The second easiest map in the set, the first of two light warm-up maps. It's fun to blitz through, and monsters can path around in ways that are surprisingly fun for such a door-based layout. The cyber from the outside can find its way inside easily. I hadn't noticed these things on the ceiling until now, they look cool. Favorite fight is the dual-cyb reveal at the RK, because it's fun two-shotting cybers. A good max target would be 5:xx. It'd require lots of luck, but maybe that could even be 4:xx if the cyber outside clears out lots of ledge snipers and picks up the red key for you and opens that door and washes your dishes and does your taxes. This is a semi-conservative run with some bits of the max route. 

 

 

 

 

[Crusader No Regret]

Map 2:

 

Gently caress this map.  With a rake.

 

So I previewed this with god mode, and it's the sort of thing I just don't enjoy.  I felt i was being forced to do the start one way or else, which left me with a sour impression.  The whole rocketing a path through a pack of imps doesn't seem as hard as I'm imagining it but the chaingunners on the sides felt like added insult.  Even after pushing through, then it's almost vital to keep moving because "oh god, the hordes are closing in, help..."  Then there's the teleport puzzle.  In a slower paced map, this wouldn't bother me.  It would also fit into a map or setting that advertises tricky puzzles.  Here, it feels like a pace killer totally different from "gobs of monsters but resources enough to handle them, no really" feel of NewGothic 1.  So I'm not going to bother with completing this honestly.

    There's some positives.  The switch to crush those alcove chaingunners is welcome.  The key are optional but allow for some fun things.  Still, i feel I'd get more frustration than enjoyment from this so skipping past.

[rehelekretep]

1 hour ago, Ribbiks said:

well I guess if dotw is any indication, nearly anything is fda-able with proper foresight and quick reflexes :D

 

I don't remember 07/11 being particularly rough, unless the final versions ended up being much rougher than the ones I playtested. shall see...

the lift is an absolute shit-show. i dont like that juddering effect either which can throw me off and i imagine others also.

[baja blast rd.]

I think that part isn't so bad. Once you two-shot one of the cybs, it's over. Let's talk about it when we get there, though. I want my strats to be a surprise to some. :) 

 

[rehelekretep]

yes im looking forward (evilly) to that date :p

[ArmouredBlood]

Man that teleport puzzle was more jarring to people than I thought. Almost as bad as the platforming in swim with the whales eh ribbiks?

[Ribbiks]

12 minutes ago, ArmouredBlood said:

Man that teleport puzzle was more jarring to people than I thought. Almost as bad as the platforming in swim with the whales eh ribbiks?

 

heh, I have zero problems with both. the solution to the teleport puzzle is plainly conveyed, and that obnoxious swtw platforming is skippable, so I'd have a hard sympathizing with complaints about either of them

[rehelekretep]

36 minutes ago, ArmouredBlood said:

Man that teleport puzzle was more jarring to people than I thought. Almost as bad as the platforming in swim with the whales eh ribbiks?

my issue with it was it isnt a puzzle. anyone can see the solution spelled out on the wall in front of them :D

therefore the main fun of a puzzle (figuring out the solution as it relates to to the gameworld) is already done, all that's left is avoiding the cyber rockets/remembering the sequence. more like a memory minigame - and we all know minigames suck :p :p :p

 

dont let the bad reaction discourage you, i like to see puzzles in doom, but this fell a bit flat. sorry!

[galileo31dos01]

MAP03

Time: 46:43

Death Count: 0

Secrets legally found: 1/1

 

I believe that watching a video previously help a lot, but still feels like it "kills" the curiosity of what is going on there, so I'm going to not do that for map 05. Anyway, this map was definitely easier than the previous two. There were a few near-dead moments but also enough health to recover and the best part, as I was progressing I had the previous areas free of enemies to backtrack for more health/armor/ammo and escape from those near-dead moments momentarily. So no claustrophobic feelings in this map, a total plus. I liked how in the first hellish area I could just run in circles and let the cyberdemon kill the majority of the snipers. Then a few encounters with chaingunners and others, and then the RK, neither of the two cybers shot me but they could have just killed me while grabbing the key, that was pure luck. Wow! Pain Elementals! Long time no see you! it's like with SMM, apparently they are not very welcomed in this kind of wads are they?. Oh yeah, before that I went to the BFG trap, using one of the walls to cover from the two guys until the trap frees me. A little hard to kill them with all those skeletons in the way. Moving on... the cacoswarm, almost kill me, I don't why I just stayed there when I could just get out of the maze to deal with them easier, but oh well. The last tiny ambush was funny, the cyber instantly start to shoot at me but the rockets went to the archviles lol. And goodbye map 03. 

Ok, again, good map, very nice visuals and details especially the window with the word "DEATH" on it. Great tune.  

[Nine Inch Heels]

3 minutes ago, galileo31dos01 said:

Wow! Pain Elementals! Long time no see you! it's like with SMM, apparently they are not very welcomed in this kind of wads are they?.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge ;-)

[riderr3]

Just to put in my two penny about "slaughter" style wads and why some other people dislike this.

-This kind of pressure on player beat the nerves.
-There are some points where player get blocked by hordes of monsters without any chance.
-Almost no places for hide.
-Design of most maps kinda dull. Because most is concentrated on slaughter-gameplay. No strategy overall.

[baja blast rd.]

45 minutes ago, riderr3 said:

... No strategy overall.

In DWMC playthroughs, it's useful to play maps/wads before commenting on them.

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by rdwpa

[Grain of Salt]

47 minutes ago, riderr3 said:

-This kind of pressure on player beat the nerves.
-There are some points where player get blocked by hordes of monsters without any chance.
-Almost no places for hide.
-Design of most maps kinda dull. Because most is concentrated on slaughter-gameplay. No strategy overall.

Okay, well. I don't mean this as an insult, but from my point of view, these points all apply pretty emphatically to Urania. Urania seems to constantly stress one playing style, and has very plain designs. Maybe we should just both reflect on how our tastes in doom can be lost on people with different viewpoints? It takes all sorts to make a world, etc.

[Cynical]

Jesus christ, I've gotten bad at this game; I tried New Gothic 2, couldn't beat map 1.

 

Is it just me, or is ammo crazily tightly judged here?  Basically all of my attempts ended by running completely out of ammo with a huge group of monsters in front of me.

 

EDIT: Figured out a way through (protip: do west wing before east wing to have the additional ammo to spam with the BFG at the Vile pincer fight on the east!), but still didn't have enough stuff to kill the two Cybs on the final bridge.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Cynical

[baja blast rd.]

NG2 map04

Probably the easiest NG2 map. The red key room with the setup of 45-degree platforms, each with their own species of monster, is a mini version of a similar room in 05. That was cute. The two cyber room is suitably scary on first playthrough, and it's intended to be just that, scary, and nothing more, because the bars let you out very quickly. In fact most of the would-be dangerous fights let you run away at will, so it feels very much like a 'training grounds' style map. Aesthetically, this has a true CC4 era vibe. A lot of mapsets use the assets but don't retain the same feel, but this design wouldn't feel out of place in JPCP, which was doing something similar with some quaint stylings. 

 

Here is a NM100 for fun, with the most vile jumps I've ever done in a single map. 

 

 

[Spectre01]

1 hour ago, Cynical said:

Is it just me, or is ammo crazily tightly judged here?  Basically all of my attempts ended by running completely out of ammo with a huge group of monsters in front of me.

I found ammo to be alright, but then again I spent half the time watching dudes infight for maximum value. If you go in pumping rockets it could definitely become an issue.