How much can you tolerate dying in the same map?

[galileo31dos01]

Say, you're playing a very hard map and your only way of learning it, is dying and trying and again, and dying and trying again, etc. You can talk about your own personal experiences. I, for example, start to get bothered and annoyed when I'm stuck in a spot where I keep dying many many times and, I also start to feel like the map itself (the author actually) really wants me to keep dying and rage. It doesn't happen the same if my deaths occur throughout the map, I can tolerate that. 

 

There are annoying deaths and laughable deaths, and these ones are the one I tolerate till the end. The other ones, after 3 or 4 times it's like ugh no bye ain't nobody get time for that... 

 

 

[torekk]

Depends: If it is my own fault - quite a lot.

 

If it is by bad level design - two or three times, then I'm done.

[Dragonfly]

Depends on how much I have enjoyed the project up until that point I suppose. I'm definitely more patient with repeated deaths in (most) commercial games than I am with doom pwads though. Some games and pwads make me rage far too easily so despite their qualities I may not enjoy them until the end.

 

On the flipside, I get bored when things are too easy, too, which can also be an alt-f4 trigger for me.

[Phade102]

Depends on the map. if my deaths are due to my own faults, such as me not knowing the map, learning the map and learning where the enemies spawn i'm happy to do it as much as needed.

 

If the map is poorly designed, and i'm dying due to RNG or just to poor monster placement, ill generally give up pretty quick.

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 hour ago, galileo31dos01 said:

Say, you're playing a very hard map and your only way of learning it, is dying and trying and again, and dying and trying again, etc. You can talk about your own personal experiences.

There's one issue with this. You can always IDDQD and look at what's ahead, so you can come up with a plan. If that's not your kind of style, you can use a map-editor to do some "reconnaisance". If you are gonna play a subjectively hard map, and you opt into doing all the parts all over again until you hit the next wall, your approach isn't efficient, and you're objectively wasting your time on doing things you can do over and over without focusing your practice on the spots that give you trouble.

 

I don't mind dying in a map, at all. In fact, I have no issues running a map dozens of times, if I want to optimize it for a fast UVmax or whatever, which often involves taking risks throughout an entire run. I don't care about that.

 

Here's a link to a DSDA entry of mine: phmlspd map 12 UV max

The demo I made beat the time of the author's UVmax by over 50 seconds, and phml is not only a mapper I like, he also is a genuinely good player. That demo took me a bunch of tries, with some deaths occuring relatively late into the run, while at times I had just some bad luck early on, or didn't play properly... You can only grind for so long at a time, heh... If you're gonna watch that demo, you'll notice that I even take the risk of charging towards a wall of cybies right at the end, putting my entire run at risk. Worth it? Absolutely... ;-)

 

1 hour ago, galileo31dos01 said:

I, for example, start to get bothered and annoyed when I'm stuck in a spot where I keep dying many many times and, I also start to feel like the map itself (the author actually) really wants me to keep dying and rage.

This is where I will have to point out that if you keep dying in the same spot over and over again, there's a chance that either you're not yet skilled enough to execute what you'd need to do, or your approach is wrong from a strategical perspective.

 

Quite a few people think that doom is a game you can play the simple way, and at your own pace. In reality, there are numerous maps that dictate the pace, and demand a specific approach to certain situations. If you don't follow suit, these maps will simply kill you for "not playing by their rules". This is frustrating for some players, which is why oftentimes sets like SunLust get some flak for being too difficult, especially on UV difficulty, when the reality of it is that some people didn't figure out how things work.

 

Everybody looses a run on occasion... Doesn't matter how good you are... But if you practice the inefficient way, it's not the map that's to blame.

 

If the map is too difficult, it's all about developing a proper practice-routine, meaning, several saves for one map, practice each part individually, then put the run together when you think you have a good chance of pulling it off. This is what works, always... Trust me, I learned the hard way. ;-)

[Lila Feuer]

Rip and tear until it is done.

[snapshot]

4-6, more if I enjoyed the map.

[NuMetalManiak]

Depends on what enemy/encounter kills me over and over.

[yakfak]

map has bad music: zero

map has good music: infinite

[Fonze]

Time is more important than deaths, and stress-factor while playing is also something to be taken into consideration, as it wears you down faster; if I die at the end of an hour-long map, even if it's only the second or third death, I'm usually out of time for the night and after that... well, tomorrow I might want to map, dm, or play another wad I have wanted to but haven't made the time for yet. On the flip side, if it's just a really tough 5-minute map, I might die upwards of 30 times before finally running out of time. Maybe when in retired I'll be able to start counting in deaths ;D

[GarrettChan]

10 minutes ago, Fonze said:

Time is more important than deaths, and stress-factor while playing is also something to be taken into consideration, as it wears you down faster.

Yeah, I always consider length is also a difficulty factor for a map. Of course, if you're not going for a single segment, this is nothing. Another thing is casual playing and speed running are somewhat different, because slow run = death.

 

Not talking about hour(s) long map, 30 minutes map could wear you down rather quickly. For 30+ min map, 2~3 times may be my limit of a day. 5 min map probably 20~30+ times per day or so. I am stubborn and want to beat whatever I consider in my skill level, so no matter how many deaths, I'll definitely try to beat it until it's done unless I can't play any more.

 

Well, I suck at the game. BtSX Map01~05, each one of these took me like 3~4 hrs to finish a run with decent time, about 50~100 deaths...

[galileo31dos01]

@Nine Inch Heels 

 

I generally blame myself when I die constantly in a same spot, not like I feel bad but I try to see it as something I'm still not prepared or not skilled for. But there are other times that I just don't understand what is the strategy, regardless of my skills, because I know I improved a lot, I mean I recently learned to dodge cyber-rockets in zig zag. Going on god mode for me is like violence is the last resort, and I'm a pacifist (in real life). When a certain encounter feels like too much, even trying different approaches, iddqd and see what's the big deal, search for possible safe spots, analyze the situation and think of different strategies, take deep breathes and think I can do it... if still doesn't work, after a lot of tries, I keep iddqd and deal with the enemies and move on.

This is not usual, and it's the first time with NGM2, it happened with FreeDoom but at the very last map. I'm not the kind of person that bashes something for being too hard and stupid just because I can't deal with it at first. 

 

About your demo, does "cl-1" stand for complevel 1?

[GarrettChan]

2 minutes ago, galileo31dos01 said:

About your demo, does "cl-1" stand for complevel 1?

Probably -1 means default.

[Nine Inch Heels]

2 minutes ago, galileo31dos01 said:

About your demo, does "cl-1" stand for complevel 1?

Not sure why the "-1" is there...

 

Play it back with this cmd line:

 

"directory of your source-port\GLboom-plus.exe" -file doom2.wad -file phmlspd.wad -complevel 9 -playdemo ph12-854

[nxGangrel]

I typically just resurrect like an ass hat and continue with the level. Despite that, if I die around at least five times in one level, especially in quick succession, I either just quit or idclev to the next level.

[Bauul]

I don't mind dying, it's the re-tracing my steps if I forgot to quicksave that sucks.

 

I recently discovered the Autosave line in ACS, so you can essentially set up save checkpoints.  I might start adding it to all my maps just to mitigate the frustration of dying.  

[Dragonfly]

^ Glad I could introduce you to it! It's a feature I recommend being careful with. Most maps never use it, and then there's those that over use it. Bare in mind that on slower machines it can produce a very noticeable reduction in framerate, too. And obviously don't allow autosaving at any time the player could die, but I'm sure you knew that already. :P

[Nine Inch Heels]

34 minutes ago, galileo31dos01 said:

I generally blame myself when I die constantly in a same spot, not like I feel bad but I try to see it as something I'm still not prepared or not skilled for. But there are other times that I just don't understand what is the strategy, regardless of my skills, because I know I improved a lot, I mean I recently learned to dodge cyber-rockets in zig zag. Going on god mode for me is like violence is the last resort, and I'm a pacifist (in real life). When a certain encounter feels like too much, even trying different approaches, iddqd and see what's the big deal, search for possible safe spots, analyze the situation and think of different strategies, take deep breathes and think I can do it... if still doesn't work, after a lot of tries, I keep iddqd and deal with the enemies and move on.

This is not usual, and it's the first time with NGM2, it happened with FreeDoom but at the very last map. I'm not the kind of person that bashes something for being too hard and stupid just because I can't deal with it at first.

A couple things about this.

 

Rather than blaming yourself, which in and off itself doesn't "sound" too positive, try seeing it as an opportunity to become a better player.

 

I regards to strategies, you will find out at some point, that doom is a bit "deeper" than you may have thought at first. When you look at good demos, or YouTube videos, you might not necessarily see what the big idea behind the player's approach is, because there's always a chance that you're oblivious to some of the variables, let alone that what you get to see in (relatively) optimized demos oftentimes involves taking risks which are similar to a coin-flip. On top of that, you only see what the player has in his/her field of view. A player who has optimized a map to a relatively high degree doesn't need to see certain things, the player just knows they're there. Also, some strategies work because of speed and timing. There are many fine points by which players optimize their play, and there is always something to learn.

 

Going on god-mode to trivialize a situation is not the same as going on god-mode for the purpose of "battleground reconnaisance". The problem is that I would actually like to take a bit of my time and give you some feedback on what I think you may want/need to change about your game, but unless you record a demo, there's no way for me to provide any feedback. I mean, if you want, send me a PM with a demo, tell me a few things about where you have trouble, and I'm sure I can help you find a solution, while also explaining a few things you may not yet be aware of. I'm far from being the be-all end-all in regards to dooming, but I may have some tips that could help you improve a bit.

 

Assuming you have a really tough situation, make a save prior to it, and pratice it until you can do it at least 4/5 times. When you know you're likely to get it right, you'll be a lot less nervous, and play a lot more consistently as a result. It really helps.

 

As for NG2, if this is your first approach to slaughter, it sure is going to give you hard time here and there. That's not because you're a bad player, but it's rather because you're not used to things like that, so you may feel a bit overwhelmed. This isn't saying anything about how good you are, it just means maps like these are a subset of doom you need to familiarize yourself with a little bit better.

 

Don't worry about it too much. It'll all come together eventually.

[4shockblast]

Thousands if it's a speedrun, but I rarely have patience for casual play and will usually use saves or rerecords after 10-20 deaths on average (rarely will I go into particularly large numbers).

[leodoom85]

When I record the maps to upload it to YT, I usually don't like dying much because it's frustrating somewhat. For a casual gameplay, I can tolerate many deaths because I'm very patient. And don't try to do a casual gameplay when you're in a bad mood...you'll end up raging a LOT :D

[Memfis]

2-3 times unless it's very close to the start (failing in Plutonia 2 starts can be fun). And these deaths shouldn't be in traps. When I die in a trap it usually feels like the author used a really cheap way to finally get me, and also I have very little motivation to try again if I don't fully understand how the trap works ("what, where did that arch-vile come from? i couldn't even hear him") and there is no guarantee that I won't die again in 5 seconds.

[scifista42]

As long as I feel that I could have survived without preknowledge if only I had slightly better reflexes or movement coordination / paid more attention / was less reckless, and that it's realistically possible for me to improve this on the next try enough to possibly succeed, I can tolerate dying over and over and over again.

[Octavarium]

It confuses me that I see nothing about taking the difficulty down in this thread. Why do people refuse to change that if they keep dying on a map?

[scifista42]

^ When I play, I do mistakes all the time. And yet, at least sometimes, my preferred level of challenge is one that defeats me for doing only a couple of mistakes. Because it makes me feel that, in order to win, I must improve (at least by becoming less prone to do mistakes that I could have easily avoided). Then it feels good when I win, as opposed to winning effortlessly on the first try. As I said, this is how I feel sometimes - other times, it may feel good to win with minimum effort, and yet other times, I may have yet different preferences. It depends on my mood and whatnot.

[leodoom85]

3 hours ago, Octavarium said:

It confuses me that I see nothing about taking the difficulty down in this thread. Why do people refuse to change that if they keep dying on a map?

It's because of personal challenges. It's a method of keeping or improving your skill that can be useful on speedruns, Nightmare skill gameplay and so on...

[42PercentHealth]

3 hours ago, Octavarium said:

It confuses me that I see nothing about taking the difficulty down in this thread. Why do people refuse to change that if they keep dying on a map?

I agree with @leodoom85. We will never learn calculus if we decide to go back to addition and subtraction every time a math course gets "hard." ;-)

[BigDickBzzrak]

I die a lot, but I resurrect myself (when in a badass port ofc) and then intentionally take damage until I have about as much health as I had the moment before dying. When I can't resurrect for some reason, I can take 1-4 deaths before ragequitting.

[Cupboard]

I resurrect so hard it's not funny when I start dying. Then I stand next to a baron or something and let myself take a healthy rip and tear to mimic the health state I was at before death.

[cacomonkey]

If I really like the map, I typically can tolerate around 10 deaths before my ADD kicks in and I abandon it.

[Pencil of Doom]

If the map or megawad is full of cheap traps and such that make me die a lot, then i'll Russian Overkill it.