Quake Champions has made me appreciate Doom's MP more...

When Doom's MP beta was released people bashed it for not being classic enough and for having loadouts. Now that Quake Champions is around the corner many are celebrating what they consider to be the return of a more classic style of arena shooter with weapon pickups (granted you still choose between 3 basic weapons at the start) instead of loadouts. So this weekend I decided to give the beta a try and expected to have fun since I haven't played an arena shooter in MP since Unreal Tournament 2004. I thought I would have a good time. I did not. In fact, I utterly hated it and it made me appreciate Doom's more modern system even more. I think people are suffering from a massive case of nostalgia goggles when they glorify the old times and classic gameplay systems such as pick ups.

 

There is a reason this game mechanic has mostly died in modern shooters: It fucking sucks.

 

The first thing that struck me while playing (and this is coming from someone who had already spent considerable amount of time on the Doom MP so I really did feel the stark contrast) Quake champions is that everybody always uses the same guns when possible. Once you get the rocket launcher or railgun, there is literally zero reason to use anything else. Those weapons are just objectively better. Every match becomes a contest in who can get the rocket launcher or railgun before everybody else. When I look back at older arena shooters like Unreal this has always been a problem for the genre. I remember also only using the rocket launcher 90% of the time while playing UT04.

 

The second problem is that pickup systems lead to poor get poorer and rick get richer scenarios where after a while the players who have been able to pick up lots of health/armor and the best weapons have an unfair advantage over players who respawn fresh. While looking at the scoreboard I would often notice that the top 30% or so of players had far greater number of kills compared to the rest, where as in Doom MP the difference wasn't this big since everybody had decent weapons at all times. The typical response from Quake fanboys is to just go and look for new weapons/armor, but the fact of the matter is that regardless of what you do sometimes you will just spawn next to other players who are better armed than you and will quickly die as a result.

 

The third problem is that pickups make the game too dependent on map memorization so you can know where all the best pickups are. Quake fanboys will claim this is a skill. It isn't. Literally anybody can simply memorize where pickups are. This isn't a skill, it is merely a byproduct of having played the map before. Making things even worse is that in order to maximize their "skill", the hardcore players will only want to play on the same maps over and over because they haven't "learned" other maps and as a result you end up playing on the same maps over and over. This is actually not only a problem with arena shooters though (just look at Dust from CS).

 

So yea. Fuck weapon pickups and classic gameplay. It died for a reason and the people who glorify it are looking at the old times through nostalgia goggles and aren't able to see it.

 

Edited by hardcore_gamer

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I'm surprised there are rocket spammers and railgunners in MP.

Oh wait

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I thought I was the only one that preferred Doom's multiplayer to Quake Champions. Just something about it wasn't as fun.

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As someone who spent years playing Q3A/QuakeLive, I have to say I don't miss it. Doom's MP is the single best MP experience I've had in regards to FPS. It's disappointing to hear that Quake Champions isn't very well balanced. I wouldn't have thought I'd like loadouts, but it makes things easier and being able to change them out every time you respawn more than makes up for only having two weapons at a time (plus the power weapon option changes things up nicely).

Edited by GoatLord

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3 hours ago, GoatLord said:

As someone who spent years playing Q3A/QuakeLive, I have to say I don't miss it. Doom's MP is the single best MP experience I've had in regards to FPS.

Yes I thought the blend of old and new worked perfectly. It's a shame that bots only work on some maps and only in death match. Does anyone even play the MP anymore?

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Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. My personal experience with DOOM's MP was more negative than positive - the hack modules I didn't mind too much, but everything else about it made me want to tear my hair out. For some reason, the SSG felt ridiculously underpowered, and with the exception of the power weapons (Gauss Cannon and BFG, for instance), the other weapons weren't too satisfying either. That and the gameplay felt oddly slow overall, and don't even get me started on the loadout system.

 

One thing I love about AFPS gameplay is that it emphasizes memorization and timing. You've got to remember where that Mega Health or Railgun spawns and when if you want to up your survival rate and have the upper hand. Granted, that same element remains in DOOM's MP to an extent, but with how underwhelming the rest of it felt, that doesn't salvage it IMO.

Edited by MFG38

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I haven't tried Quake Champions yet but I played around in DOOM's MP for a few hours and found it to be pretty decently fun. The loadouts are kind of... eh, would much prefer the classic method of having weapons on the level that players have to hunt. Otherwise it didn't really offend me like it did others. I may spend a few more hours in it but I doubt I'll take it anymore serious than that.

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I strongly disagree.

It's easy to kill someone holding a RL if you have even the basic Machine gun.  You just shoot from a distance, or make sure you're quicker on the aim than them.  The delay between rails shots pretty much fucks the user if they didn't kill you in that shot unless you suck at aiming.

Map control may not be a skill, but the movement and aim to take control of a map is a skill.  Yes, it's true .... you can kill someone with armor and a mega. I've slaughtered heavies with the light champions in duels, it's not that bad. 

 

One of the many key differences between Doom MP and QC MP is aiming.  Shooting someone in Doom is like setting off a tactical nuke in a barn. It's easy as shit and requires very little precision.

Edited by Flesh420

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lmao looks like they will be throwing balance out of the window for the sake of selling more champions if this video is anything to go by:

 

 

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Is there a possibility there gonna add Doom Slayer/Doom guy? Wait a minute.... His gonna be way too op if he is.

Edited by Chickensoup101

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I'm having increasingly mixed feelings with each teaser they release...

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There is a reason this game mechanic has mostly died in modern shooters: It fucking sucks.

Found the n00b who's tired of losing and wants to blame it on the game!  And you call yourself "hardcore_gamer", LOL.

 

The first thing that struck me while playing (and this is coming from someone who had already spent considerable amount of time on the Doom MP so I really did feel the stark contrast) Quake champions is that everybody always uses the same guns when possible. Once you get the rocket launcher or railgun, there is literally zero reason to use anything else. Those weapons are just objectively better. Every match becomes a contest in who can get the rocket launcher or railgun before everybody else. When I look back at older arena shooters like Unreal this has always been a problem for the genre. I remember also only using the rocket launcher 90% of the time while playing UT04.



 

The second problem is that pickup systems lead to poor get poorer and rick get richer scenarios where after a while the players who have been able to pick up lots of health/armor and the best weapons have an unfair advantage over players who respawn fresh. While looking at the scoreboard I would often notice that the top 30% or so of players had far greater number of kills compared to the rest, where as in Doom MP the difference wasn't this big since everybody had decent weapons at all times. The typical response from Quake fanboys is to just go and look for new weapons/armor, but the fact of the matter is that regardless of what you do sometimes you will just spawn next to other players who are better armed than you and will quickly die as a result.

This is a feature, not a bug.  Map control, bro.  Learn it and love it.  I mean, shit, Quake has armor tickdown, armor shards, and usually 4 or 5 armors per map (the most that a single player can reliably time being 2; top players can sort of time 3, but they're inevitably a bit sloppy with it); if you're getting out-gunned, you need to stop taking bad fights.

 

(Also, at least in Q3A/Quake Live, grenades and lightning are just as important as rockets and railgun, and from what I've seen of QC, I don't think this has changed).

 

(Oh, and if you used rocket launcher 90% of the time in UT2k4, you were garbage at that game.  Double jump made rockets nearly worthless.  UT2k4 was Lightning/Shock/Flak oriented, with Link also having a role in team-based modes [especially Onslaught].)

 

The third problem is that pickups make the game too dependent on map memorization so you can know where all the best pickups are. Quake fanboys will claim this is a skill. It isn't. Literally anybody can simply memorize where pickups are. This isn't a skill, it is merely a byproduct of having played the map before. Making things even worse is that in order to maximize their "skill", the hardcore players will only want to play on the same maps over and over because they haven't "learned" other maps and as a result you end up playing on the same maps over and over. This is actually not only a problem with arena shooters though (just look at Dust from CS).

Memorization isn't a skill, but choosing routes through a map is a skill.  Doing trick jumps to get from one side of a map to the other quickly is a skill.  Deciding whether to pressure a fresh spawn or to go for that RA that just spawned is a skill.  Setting up an ambush at an item that's about to spawn is a skill. 

 

The reason "hardcore" players only tend to play on a few maps is because most other maps have something that makes them garbage for 1v1.  To use UT 2k4 as an example, GrendelKeep had the imbalanced Super Shield spawn (which is unfortunate, since it was great otherwise; if 2K4 had UT4-style spawn mechanics, that map would have been a classic), Squader had too much stuff sticking out of the walls, Idoma was dependent on Adrenaline pickups (which are always turned off in 1v1) for sound cues, Desolation was too cramped, Mixer was too cramped, Ironic had too short of a distance from 50 shield to 100 shield, Spirit and Crash had lame layouts, Irondust's sight lines were too long, etc; as a result, everyone played Antalus, Roughinery, Rankin, Deck 17, and, later, Lea for all eternity not because they were too lazy to learn other maps but because they had learned the other maps and realized that they weren't suitable.

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5 hours ago, Cynical said:

Found the n00b who's tired of losing and wants to blame it on the game!  And you call yourself "hardcore_gamer", LOL.

I seem to have seen this comment numerous times now. To recap on Cynical's points though, the whole argument given ultimately comes down to "I played the game a couple of hours, why am I not #1 every game now?" - It just isn't like that.

 

One of the biggest skills in Quake MP is timing. Watch Quake Live duels from Quakecon! Not only is it thrilling content watch, it's also very impressive & addictive, but more importantly it's also very, very educational.

 

You don't get even remotely close to that kind of skill without putting in hundreds of thousands of hours into these types of games. If you give the game a good, honest try over 10-20 hours you would see your skills rise rapidly, as well as your timing and your map awareness, even on lesser-player / not played maps.

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