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KVELLER

Doom 1 or 2?

Which one is your favorite?  

92 members have voted

  1. 1. Which one is your favorite?

    • DOOM/The Ultimate DOOM
      46
    • DOOM II: Hell on Earth
      46


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9 hours ago, RUSH said:

Amazing, so I'm not the only person on planet earth who thinks Episode 4 is the best run of official maps from any of the IWADS

I've probably mentioned this several times in Doom 1 or 2 threads, but I always imagined I'd get shit for it. I guess not, haha.

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I'm honestly surprised that Doom 1 is winning. With all the "gameplay > aesthetics" talk that goes around the mapping circles, I would have thought that Doom 2 (with its wider variety of encounters and enemy types) would have totally trumped Doom 1 (with its repeated hallway shootouts and pump-action SG vs. barons and cacos tedium).

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2 hours ago, nxGangGirl said:

I've probably mentioned this several times in Doom 1 or 2 threads, but I always imagined I'd get shit for it. I guess not, haha.

I've actually never noticed you say this before. Curious why you like Episode 4 best?

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3 hours ago, 42PercentHealth said:

I'm honestly surprised that Doom 1 is winning. With all the "gameplay > aesthetics" talk that goes around the mapping circles, I would have thought that Doom 2 (with its wider variety of encounters and enemy types) would have totally trumped Doom 1 (with its repeated hallway shootouts and pump-action SG vs. barons and cacos tedium).

It's nostalgia probably! :D

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Just now, VGA said:

It's nostalgia probably! :D

I like the first game more, and nostalgia isn't the reason at all (in my case, at least). In fact, I played Doom 2 a LOT more that Doom 1 as a kid, since we only owned the shareware version, and I didn't play the full game until much later.

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I wasn't blown away by Doom 1 first time I played it in 1995, though it definitely deserves its status as an all-time classic.  But I was blown away by Doom II first time I played it...literally...by an arch vile.  I never knew what hit me, except that it was something...vile.  The much more lethal bestiary made Doom II the more fun and challenging game for me

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They deliberately created new monsters with attacks that made simple straferunning less effective, weapon changing essential and target prioritization more necessary.

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I like the levels of Romero's Episode 1 of Doom best, but both the arsenal and the bestiary is lacking without the additions from Doom II.

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This poll seems to be one hell of a fight ;)   (Yes, I made that joke for the 200th time).

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3 hours ago, RUSH said:

Curious why you like Episode 4 best?

Pretty much the reasons you mentioned. I like the Gothic abstract design that to me looks like a predecessor to Quake 1 level design, which I completely love. I also like how the designers tried to work in the difficulty, making it the hardest mapset, using the small amount of monsters Doom 1 without adding any from Doom 2.

I've been told several times my levels look like E4 levels, which is what I purposefully try to emulate.

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Doom 2. Bonus that Without it the series might've had way less fan support than it got. 

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5 hours ago, Doomkid said:

How do you quantify betterness, sales figures and overall popularity? If that's the metric you're using it's probably more accurate to say "which has the greater mass appeal" because that's not really the same as "better". Semantics I know, [...]

I'll put it this way: to call something preferred (or a favorite) requires no significant justification, whereas to call something better ought to be proven.

 

To speak in terms of most or least favorite, or preferences, or merely likes and dislikes, is to have a positive or negative reaction towards something that is not (or cannot be) explained. My favorite color is red. Why? Because when I look at various colors and I see the one we call red it evokes the greatest positive emotional response. Of course, that explanation is effectively "I like it because my body said so", and does nothing to make anyone else understand or even believe it to be true from my own perspective. If you really like pineapple on pizza, you aren't going to convince someone who doesn't to change their stance. Preference itself exists a priori, beyond that which can be deduced through intelligible meaning. And yet through those innumerable preferences you can start to piece together patterns about how you think.

 

To speak in terms of better and worse conveys a more objective weight, in which one provides comparisons revolved around basic assumptions. "For objects M and N and assumptive qualities A, B, and C; if factors AM, BM, and CM are greater than factors AN, BN, and CN; then we can say that M is better than N." Within this, there's a focus on presenting evidence that exists regardless of the viewer and using it to infer degrees of quality. What's important to realize is that there is no implied "better in all things forever": M is better than N regarding only qualities A, B, and C, and that's only if the reasoning is sound. Often there are no useful comparisons to make! Thus, better and worse are reserved for cases where there is enough similarity to make a case in the first place, and the case itself must be defined to be meaningful.


So when I see "favorite" and "better" used interchangeably, it suggests no interest in how others think, only what that surface-level preference is. It suggests that trying to describe my own understanding has no value because the other person is more interested in aligning with like-minded others rather than learning to agree even when we don't think similarly. (The more likely probability, however, is that most people don't give a rat's ass about any of the above and believe the two words to be semantically equivalent, so I tend to go with that.)

 

5 hours ago, Doomkid said:

After all, who's to say Heretic isn't better than Doom?

I say that. And of course, in order to say that I have to pick a means of comparison, of which I choose gameplay because the most fundamental attribute video games have in common is being games. (Of course you can say that the medium of video games is much more than simply a game, but seeing as how interactivity (i.e., the play in gameplay) sets them apart from other media, I think it's an easy basis from which arguments can be derived.) Don't get me wrong, Heretic is still the game that evokes the most positive emotional response to me as opposed to Doom, but I don't let that get in the way of me judging it on concrete terms that I can relate to others. And, if I'm looking to make a better game on such merits, I have a working theory from which I can progress toward that goal.

 

---

 

Anyway, all that aside, I suppose Doom2 wins my preference, though it's not by a mile or anything. Even if Doom1 has less to offer, it's also a smaller game, and I think it uses the space it has just fine.

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Doom 1 for me! Though I also love Doom 2, so it's not that big of a thing, just overall I found Doom1 more consistently enjoyable. If I was to make a personal "best of" of each game with only 15 maps, it actually might be too close to call. If it was top 5, I might go with Doom2. Some of my favorite maps are in that one, but Doom1 is more enjoyable to play all the way through for me.

 

Also, nobody invited the Pain Elemental! It would be funny and excellent if he went to "game jail" and couldn't be in maps for five years.

 

I also see Thy Flesh Consumed as it's own thing, being released after Doom2, but I like that also so it doesn't effect the vote much.

 

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On ‎2017‎-‎06‎-‎14 at 5:01 PM, leodoom85 said:

 

I voted DOOM 2 just because it has more weapons and monsters, as well as PWADS. That being said, I think DOOM 1 had a more solid music track over 2 (2 was still great), and it was more challenging for sure! Hard decision to make haha. Both are great games!

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11 hours ago, CapnClever said:

 

I say that. And of course, in order to say that I have to pick a means of comparison, of which I choose gameplay because the most fundamental attribute video games have in common is being games.

 

So what objectively determines which game has better gameplay? I still am not sold on the idea that this is objective in any way whatsoever, that's all. One could easily prefer the gameplay elements of Heretic to those of Doom - they may find the pacing to be better, they may find the weapon balance more enjoyable, they may find the enemies are more well designed and so forth. It's all still sounding like totally subjective preferences to me personally - there's no right or wrong way to design games, there's only preferences. Someone could say "ugh this gameplay sucks" when falling into a trap, while someone else says "gee, what a thrilling surprise!"

 

There just doesn't seem to be any way to quantify this in any remotely objective way. It's still all a series of subjective preferences.

 

when I see "favorite" and "better" used interchangeably, it suggests no interest in how others think, only what that surface-level preference is.

To me, the opposite is true. Let's say big fans of id tech games are chatting, but one asserts "Doom is better". The other person, who sees Heretic as the superior product, would probably find it strange for such a subjective statement to be said in such a definitive manner. By contrast, one of them saying "Doom is my favorite" strikes me as more likely to strike up discussions about what aspects of gameplay/art style/etc leads them to their conclusion, as exemplified in this very thread. Unless you define a metric based on something void of opinion such as sales figures, number engine features, number of enemy varieties, etc it doesn't make much sense to say one is objectively better. Gameplay is a totally subjective metric to judge by, so it seems that "favorite" is the correct term to use.

 

(forgive me for prying, I genuinely find this discussion interesting)

Edited by Doomkid

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Doom 1: has the most memorable maps

Doom 2: has the most memorable game play and D_TENSE.

 

Doom 2: has Nirvana but Doom 1: has E3M5 and E4M6.

 

Doom: made very good use of its Small bestiary.

 

Doom 2: new bestiary gave new dynamics to the Doom gameplay since not every monster is an imp with more health.

 

Both are equally great IMO.

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For me it mostly comes down to Doom 2's maps not even closely looking than what their name advertises. Sorry, but that abstract cityscape doesn't work for me.

 

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4 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Doom 2: has Nirvana but Doom 1: has E3M5 and E4M6.

Even if you don't like E4M6 (for whatever warped, heretical reasons you must have for that) comparing it to Nirvana is silly.

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9 minutes ago, Grain of Salt said:

Even if you don't like E4M6 (for whatever warped, heretical reasons you must have for that) comparing it to Nirvana is silly.

Nirvana is just "meh" for me.

But E4M6, the forced walking in lava... ahhh.. no more.

 

No warped heresy just a diabolical map. I love E4, but man that map was unenjoyable to play.

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If we ignore historical significance, pwads and all that, I think I prefer Doom 1. In my mind it's a much more atmospheric experience and it definitely had stronger influence on me and my imagination. When I think about Doom1, the music from E2M7 immediately pops up in my head and I'm like "wow".

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Doom 2 would have been very weird without Doom 1, that's for sure.

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There are some people trying to develop formal theories behind game design. The MDA Framework tends to be the most known, and it's an insightful read even if you don't believe it to be useful in a targeted manner.

 

13 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Let's say big fans of id tech games are chatting, but one asserts "Doom is better". The other person, who sees Heretic as the superior product, would probably find it strange for such a subjective statement to be said in such a definitive manner. By contrast, one of them saying "Doom is my favorite" strikes me as more likely to strike up discussions about what aspects of gameplay/art style/etc leads them to their conclusion, as exemplified in this very thread.

I can only repeat what I said earlier: a preference needs no explanation, a assertion of better/worse does. The hypothetical person saying "Doom is better" without giving an explanation is stating their preference, only in a way that's going to piss people off; and the hypothetical person saying "Doom is my favorite" while attempting to explain is only guessing at rationalizations (or wording their assertion poorly). If we can't agree on that much, there's little reason to continue.

 

If this sounds like stubbornly splitting hairs, well, yeah I am doing that. Yet I'm not going to blindly accept preferences that may not accurately reflect their perspective. Indeed, the very same person could think that some hypothetical game trap is both a thrilling experience and dumb gameplay, perhaps on different playthroughs, or quite possibly at the same time. So how might it be both? That's what I want to understand, and I don't accept that "we're all just different" is the only possibility.

 

I think you're trying too hard to get a quantitative metric out of this, when even the qualitative metrics are fuzzy. I don't have a statistical method to convince you that Gameplay X does something better than Gameplay Y. Yes, ideally we would apply mathematical formalism to get an accepted result, but should we just twiddle our thumbs and ignore everything until one is available? I wouldn't write this stuff if I didn't expect to be challenged on it. Heck, that I don't get challenged on it often tends to be disconcerting because there's no way I have anything remotely close to a useful theory. If you don't think there are answers to be found, so be it, but I'm going to keep toiling away until I find one.

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my favorite is Doom 3. Just kidding ;-P.

 

To be honest,I like both the same, but I voted for The Ultimate Doom because the music is sooooo much better than Doom II

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*Sprinkles a good dozen Arch-Viles into a map with one hand*

 

Hmmm, which one, which one...

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Clearly Final Doom.

 

In all honesty, I prefer Doom 1 for the level design as they fit well with the themes they're going for, even if some levels are sloppy (E2M9), also the music feels more of that Doom I think of. Now I love Doom 2 but some of the levels are thrown together poorly and sometimes the names speak for themselves (What is MAP23 supposed to be?). Now if only Doom 1 includes the Super Shotgun and Doom 2's enemy line-up.

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1 hour ago, GuyNamedErick said:

Now if only Doom 1 includes the Super Shotgun and Doom 2's enemy line-up.

This would have been perfect.   Episodic setup with solid mid-tier enemies and the super shotgun in 36 levels.  Hell yeah.    

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11 minutes ago, joepallai said:

This would have been perfect.   Episodic setup with solid mid-tier enemies and the super shotgun in 36 levels.  Hell yeah.    

I love Knee-Deep in the Dead as much as the next guy, but killing mainly possessed humans can only be fun for so long. What made Doom 2 stand out was the addition of new enemies and of course the Super Shotgun, and without that, as much as I love Doom 1, it feels incomplete without them.

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I like The Ultimate Doom's vanilla campaign more than Doom 2's. But I can never argue that Doom 2 has a lot better of mods, wads and weapons making it more fun to make wads for. So generally I like to play The Ultimate Doom, and to mod Doom 2.

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It's a toss up as far as I'm concerned. I really like the design and sense of progression in the first Doom but the much needed additional monsters in Doom II spice things up enough to keep me interested.

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I'll always prefer playing in episodes over playing a heap bunch of maps thrown atop eachother.

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