Things you prefer in Doom 1/2 over Doom 2016

[Aldaraia]

The fact that whenever you bought a physical copy of Doom/Doom II, you didn't have to download the rest of the game from the internet.

[Nine Inch Heels]

Doom'16 is too easy compared to some of the megawads we have available for doom II. Granted, nightmare isn't entirely faceroll, but... ehh...

 

Also:

no slaughter = K thx bye

 

double jumping = metroid, or super ghouls'n'ghosts, or what is up with that?

 

glory kills = *yawn*

 

Cacos = I don't think we need to talk about this...

[Cruduxy Pegg]

6 minutes ago, Aldaraia said:

The fact that whenever you bought a physical copy of Doom/Doom II, you didn't have to download the rest of the game from the internet.

Installing Doom\Doom 2 was a nightmare though from all the stupid floppy disks.

[Koko Ricky]

The fact that in Doom 1/2, you could navigate a map at your own pace, with only a couple of areas in the entire two games in which you're locked into a room and have to battle a horde. Otherwise, you're free to explore as you wish, allowing you to approach any given map in many different ways. Also, DoomGuy is a more "normal" human in the old games, as opposed to some immortal badass. Oh yeah, and of course, making interesting new content is far easier.

[Woolie Wool]

35 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Doom'16 is too easy compared to some of the megawads we have available for doom II. Granted, nightmare isn't entirely faceroll, but... ehh...

 

Also:

no slaughter = K thx bye

Why would you expect anything else? It's a retail game made for normal people to play, not a hardcore slaughter megawad made for the most elite 5% of Doom fanatics. And so, come to think of it, were the classic DOS games out of the box. When was the last time you played doom.wad?

 

Missing modding and fully featured level editing is pointless because a full SDK for an engine like Id Tech 6 is useless to consumers (unless you have a render farm, a network-based subversion repository, and hundreds of servants to work on it for you in your house), so I'll pick...

 

Encounter design. Doom 4 doesn't have much in the way of either incidental or setpiece-based fixed monster encounters, instead locking you into big arenas and spawning a motley assortment of demons into the room. This severely limits what can be done with the Doom bestiary. In the old days, you could place specific monsters and build environments around the capabilities of those monsters, allowing for much more gameplay depth and variety--cacos as harassers, pop-up traps, hitscanners doing area denial, archviles released into rooms full of dead monsters (or in Doom 4's case, summoners released into empty areas and allowed to run around spawning monsters for a while), etc.

 

10 hours ago, kb1 said:

Today, I went to KMart and spent about $120 on stuff I needed. For the first time in 30 years, a guy in a KMart uniform, standing by the exit doors said to me: "Got your receipt?". I said "Yep, sure do" and kept pushing my cart. Then he said, "I'm going to have to see it." I said, "No thanks" and walked out with my stuff. He was not pleased, and continued to follow me outside: "Sir, Sir...". I didn't respond again.

 

Again, the "guilty until proven innocent" attitude. Just like the Steam thing, when people start accepting this kind of thing as normal, it sends a message that it's ok not to trust me - it's ok to force me to prove that I'm not a criminal. This means that, hey, maybe people will accept even more invasive stuff. How about being searched each time you leave a store? Being X-Rayed? TSA-like security, in department stores. I find the whole thing offensive, to the point that I am compelled to act petty to avoid it.

You know you're going to get your ass kicked by the police one day if you keep pissing security off, right? The guard might even be an off-duty cop himself, and cops seem especially eager to satisfy their violence boners these days.

[42PercentHealth]

After reading through some other replies, a few more things to add to my list:

 

14. No disappearing corpses. Not only does this add to the realism and satisfaction, but it also allows for...

15. Arch-viles. A summoner is not an arch-vile. Sorry.

16. Arachnotrons. They are such a nice addition to Doom's menagerie!

17. Slaughtermaps, as MysteriousHaruko and Nine Inch Heels pointed out.

18. Imps that don't run away from you, forcing you to snipe them from a distance. In the old days, all monsters tried to make themselves as dangerous as possible.

19. Mancubi that don't leap up ledges like ballerinas. I know why they wanted it in D'16, so I can kinda overlook it in the other monsters. But mancubi cannot possibly be that nimble.

 

This is the cost of progress: high-polygon-count enemies with "advanced" AI means more CPU/GPU cost per monster. This means we can't leave their corpses laying around -- we need those polygons for the next monsters spawning in. We can't spawn them all in at once, 'cuz polygons and CPU. This means no slaughter scenarios, and no monsters resurrecting other monsters. :-\

 

The old Doom is the real Doom.

[cacomonkey]

I played a few minutes of Doom 2016 yesterday for the first time.  The first  thing I noticed in the first few seconds was that I thought I was walking so I pressed the modifier key (Shift?) to see how the game is when I run. Um, as it turns out, that was the running speed.  So, the big thing of course is the speed of Doom classic verses Doom 2016.  I hear you can get powerups that do in fact increase the speed so I hope to discover these in good time.  The imps are MUCH nastier in new Doom vs. old, and move with an unnerving speed, like the gremlin in that Twilight Zone movie.  The way they crawl up the sides of things is creepy and effective.  All in all, I'm finding it to be a bit of a corridor shooter so far (like the early levels of Doom 3) and I'm not pleased with that.  I liked the non-linearity of Doom classic where right off the bat you could go off in totally different directions.  New Doom feels like you're being herded, like a sheep with a big gun.  Hopefully it gets better. 

[UglyStru]

This is in the format of what I didn't like in Doom 16 and what should've been changed to give it a more classic feel.

 

1. Cutscenes were interruptive and makes speedrunning more annoying.
2. COLOR. My god, everything is so desaturated and blah sometimes. Everything just blends with the environment palette which consists of a good 7 or 8 blah colors per map.
3. Can't save and reload as you please. It's all checkpoint based.
4. BFG mechanics are more simplified than they were in a 20+ year old game. I don't understand how a DOS game could be programmed better than a god damn 80GB AAA title. Either Carmack was that good or id Bethesda got lazy.
5. Damage multipliers and such make combat slower and less predictable. I guess that could be a good thing but one fun thing about the old Doom games was that you knew how many shots it would take to kill a monster so you didn't waste time trying to see if something died or not. Ex. pinkies die in 3 shotgun blasts in classic Doom; Doom 16 they take about 10-30. Idk if I just don't understand the mechanics or if there are that many parameters involved with reducing their life pool.
6. Idk if it's just because I play on HMP but retrieving resources is based off of how many monsters you kill. Ex. you can chainsaw a pinkie if you're low on ammo and they will explode like a pinata. There is no strategy about saving resources in the map or running low on ammo/HP when a monster will just spit out anything you need.
7. No Doom Builder, no Skillsaw, no Ribbiks. Why even live?
8. No MIDIs...
9. Z Axis just makes shit less Doomy. Not saying it's bad it just doesn't feel like Doom where monsters are hopping around from floor to floor. Minimap is also strange with having multiple levels in your map.
10. Monsters run away from you. What the fuck? I'm not chasing shit down. YOU COME TO ME, MOTHERFUCKER. 

[42PercentHealth]

8 minutes ago, stru said:

Damage multipliers and such make combat slower and less predictable. I guess that could be a good thing but one fun thing about the old Doom games was that you knew how many shots it would take to kill a monster so you didn't waste time trying to see if something died or not. Ex. pinkies die in 3 shotgun blasts in classic Doom; Doom 16 they take about 10-30. Idk if I just don't understand the mechanics or if there are that many parameters involved with reducing their life pool.

Pinkies are an odd lot in D'16. You may notice that they are covered in armored plates from the front, but they have pink, fleshy bee-hinds. The only strategy for taking them down is to dodge their charge, follow them until they bump into a wall, and then shoot them in the butt. I think a single SSG blast will kill them, in that case. But yeah, it's their only weak spot. I think they were trying to make them more "interesting" to fight, but it's actually really lame that there's only one tactic for bringing them down. They literally make you ignore everything else that's going on in the room in order to chase down a single pinky butt.

[UglyStru]

29 minutes ago, 42PercentHealth said:

Pinkies are an odd lot in D'16. You may notice that they are covered in armored plates from the front, but they have pink, fleshy bee-hinds. The only strategy for taking them down is to dodge their charge, follow them until they bump into a wall, and then shoot them in the butt. I think a single SSG blast will kill them, in that case. But yeah, it's their only weak spot. I think they were trying to make them more "interesting" to fight, but it's actually really lame that there's only one tactic for bringing them down. They literally make you ignore everything else that's going on in the room in order to chase down a single pinky butt.

Seriously. I can't remember what level it was (one of the later ones) where you're in some office building and you get stuck in this room with a bunch of imps and 4 pinkies that teleport in. That was an annoying battle. 

[Tracer]

Medkits that look like first aid kits, exploding barrels that look like steel drum barrels, pinkies that don't essentially need to be shot in the ass, hitscanning former humans, stat screens, music that isn't overproduced electro-vampire nightclub jams, more damaging floors that aren't instant deaths...

[CzechMate29200]

2 hours ago, stru said:

Carmack was that good or id Bethesda got lazy.

Nope...Carmack was just that freakin' good

[42PercentHealth]

3 hours ago, stru said:

Either Carmack was that good or id Bethesda got lazy.

 

49 minutes ago, CzechMate29200 said:

Nope...Carmack was just that freakin' good

 

All Carmack did was implement projectiles and hitscans in the same game. Both were used in Wolf3D and Catacomb 3D before, but only in 2D spaces (despite the names). Whoever designed the BFG used both in the same gun, which was new, brilliant, powerful, deceptively deep, even if unintuitive.

 

The Doom 4 BFG behaves more like the Doom 3 incarnation -- slow moving projectile, targets take damage while they are in LoS of the projectile, projectile deals splash damage on impact. Not certain on this, but it seems that the Doom 4 one is maybe more powerful? It seems to kill more enemies (and more powerful enemies) in one shot than the Doom 3 one did. But that could be an illusion produced by more monsters in more open arenas...

[Cynical]

4 hours ago, Woolie Wool said:

Missing modding and fully featured level editing is pointless because a full SDK for an engine like Id Tech 6 is useless to consumers (unless you have a render farm, a network-based subversion repository, and hundreds of servants to work on it for you in your house), so I'll pick...

That's not really true.  Plenty of people are making fully original Unreal Tournament 4 deathmatch, CTF, and blitz maps in their own homes.  If you have a PC that can run 3DS Max, Maya, or Lightwave, you have what you need to map for a "modern" engine.

[Fonze]

This thread is a bunch of nerds complaining about really insignificant nerdy stuff interspersed with nonfactual retellings of history. Also, I've run out of popcorn.

 

Just thought some perspective would help ;D

[42PercentHealth]

1 minute ago, Fonze said:

This thread is a bunch of nerds...

Challenge: find a thread on this site which does not consist of a bunch of nerds. ;-)

 

[Battle_Korbi]

I have a feeling this is just another Doom 2016 bashing thread.

 

Of course Doom 2016 won't be like Doom 1 or 2. But, if one thinks of it, we could have something even worser than that. Anyone met with the conceptual Doom 4? Apparently you had to take cover in that game.

 

Also it seems like you guys are starting repeat each other. I could have copy+paste-d your comments and get likes for a lovin', but I have something else to say.

 

Has anyone thought that any new Doom game is not trying to be "the same ole Doom you know and love"? Doom has always been a monument for progression, ever since it was conceptualized. The only thing these games are connected by is the lore and the setting. But apparently Doomworld does not care about that. Of course you are going to bash any newer games because you look at the gameplay prospective, which is always trying to be the new thing, and not be a generic spin-off and end up being its own clone. So yeah, things are diffrent in Doom 2016. Things are diffrent in Doom 3. Things are diffrent in Doom 64. Things are diffrent in Doom 2. Things are diffrent in Doom itself.

 

I mean, just look at other first-person games from the era first Doom was created. Slow and hard dungeon crawlers. Doom became synonimous with speed and quick action. You just gotta use that eye and look at Doom 2016, and see how up-to-date it is, how is it keeping up with other FPS games, which are most likely shoot-from-cover games. Doom 2016 does not have that much cover, and forces you to up front.

 

Kinda like the first Doom. Look! You can survive more than three shots! Look! You can heal yourself instantly without rummaging through inventory! Look! You don't have to wait several minutes to fight back! Look at you! You have cleaned that room rather quickly! Any other game would force you to spend a half of hour cleaning up after a dozen of mooks.

 

I am starting to repeat myself as well it seems.

[42PercentHealth]

1 minute ago, Battle_Kirby said:

I have a feeling this is just another Doom 2016 bashing thread.

 

Of course Doom 2016 won't be like Doom 1 or 2. But, if one thinks of it, we could have something even worser than that. Anyone met with the conceptual Doom 4? Apparently you had to take cover in that game.

 

Also it seems like you guys are starting repeat each other. I could have copy+paste-d your comments and get likes for a lovin', but I have something else to say.

 

Has anyone thought that any new Doom game is not trying to be "the same ole Doom you know and love"? Doom has always been a monument for progression, ever since it was conceptualized. The only thing these games are connected by is the lore and the setting. But apparently Doomworld does not care about that. Of course you are going to bash any newer games because you look at the gameplay prospective, which is always trying to be the new thing, and not be a generic spin-off and end up being its own clone. So yeah, things are diffrent in Doom 2016. Things are diffrent in Doom 3. Things are diffrent in Doom 64. Things are diffrent in Doom 2. Things are diffrent in Doom itself.

 

I mean, just look at other first-person games from the era first Doom was created. Slow and hard dungeon crawlers. Doom became synonimous with speed and quick action. You just gotta use that eye and look at Doom 2016, and see how up-to-date it is, how is it keeping up with other FPS games, which are most likely shoot-from-cover games. Doom 2016 does not have that much cover, and forces you to up front.

 

Kinda like the first Doom. Look! You can survive more than three shots! Look! You can heal yourself instantly without rummaging through inventory! Look! You don't have to wait several minutes to fight back! Look at you! You have cleaned that room rather quickly! Any other game would force you to spend a half of hour cleaning up after a dozen of mooks.

 

I am starting to repeat myself as well it seems.

There are some things in Doom 2016 which are better than classic Doom -- I'll grant you that. But look at the thread title.

[Battle_Korbi]

6 minutes ago, 42PercentHealth said:

There are some things in Doom 2016 which are better than classic Doom -- I'll grant you that. But look at the thread title.

And all did I find was complaints that it is not as same game they expected.

 

That, and "Doom 2016 sux cuz...". The thread doesn't ask why Doom 2016 sucks, just what you prefer in Doom 1/2 and not in Doom 2016.

[CzechMate29200]

@Battle_Kirby uhhh, no, this is just a thread asking for peoples personal opinions. Like I said D16 is a great game, every game has its ups and downs. UD/D2 included

 

One thing that's better in D16 is well...ITS FUCKING 3D!!!!!!  :D

[Fonze]

21 minutes ago, 42PercentHealth said:

Challenge: find a thread on this site which does not consist of a bunch of nerds. ;-)

 

Well good thing you removed the main points of what I said; it might have made sense in context!

[42PercentHealth]

Just now, Fonze said:

Well good thing you removed the main points of what I said; it might have made sense in context!

Yeah, couldn't really disagree with what you said, so I just pointed out what irony I could. :-P Sorry, couldn't help it...

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Gameplay criticism is mostly on point, Especially immersion breaking ones like loot pinatas and irritating ones like cutscenes and QTE weapons. Others such as essentially "My machine can't run it" are ridiculous when comparing games with over 2 decades between them and I don't think of "opinion" as a veil to defend them is justified. 

[Reisal]

Infighting is easier to achieve, plus all of @42PercentHealth's reasons.

No OBLIGE to make random maps for.

[Woolie Wool]

1 hour ago, Cynical said:

That's not really true.  Plenty of people are making fully original Unreal Tournament 4 deathmatch, CTF, and blitz maps in their own homes.  If you have a PC that can run 3DS Max, Maya, or Lightwave, you have what you need to map for a "modern" engine.

MP maps are a completely different ball game from SP. Have you noticed that almost all successful mods for FPS games from around 2004 onwards are MP? MP maps are much smaller and have far less scripting, cutscenes, audio assets, etc. Plus, last time I played it, the visuals and presentation of UT4 gave no indication that they would ever be even close to AAA quality.

[Xaser]

6 hours ago, Woolie Wool said:

Missing modding and fully featured level editing is pointless because a full SDK for an engine like Id Tech 6 is useless to consumers (unless you have a render farm, a network-based subversion repository, and hundreds of servants to work on it for you in your house), so I'll pick...

A bit random, but I keep seeing variants of "even if you had the SDK, you couldn't use it to build levels" as a response to "why isn't there modding?", which has always struck me as a non-sequitur since mapping isn't the only kind of modding. In our hypothetical alternate universe where Doom '16 was fully moddable, I'd love to pick apart the multiplayer mode and rebalance things to be more oldschool, and none of that involves actually editing maps aside from adjusting thing placement (which, since we're in fantasy land already, we can magically assume doesn't require a workstation-class PC).

 

Now, back to the real world, it's quite likely that the engine's build pipeline is completely consumer-PC-unfriendly, leading to the exact scenario as described, but we ought not confuse the concepts and strike down a strawman when the actual statue is standing on a shaky foundation to begin with. Clearly this is already true to some extent, as the build pipeline is mod-unfriendly anyway. :P

 

Back on topic, though, I love the fark out of Doom '16 and don't really care to nitpick the differences. It captures the spirit.

[ShoDemo]

Ok, so we talked about all the stuff that are wrong in the singleplayer aspect of the game, we talked about the limitations of Snapmap, but did anybody mention the multiplayer? Don't get me wrong, I haven't played Doom 2016 yet and I may not be the right person for an opinion on this matter, but only by seeing some gameplay of it on multiplayer, I think it was irrelevant to the whole package.

When I saw any reviews out there bashing Doom, instead of praising it (like most did), they all talked about the multiplayer being like Halo. And I have to agree. I saw it having loadouts and universal ammo if I am not wrong, plus the demon rune, because SCREW BALANCE AND SKILL! Also, add some DLC as well, because that is truly old-school, ISN'T IT???  (screw you horse armor)

Sure, somebody may say: <<But Doom was always about the singleplayer.>>, to which I can easily reply <<Then don't make a useless multiplayer, damn it! It would be fine without it, as a game and maybe even better than now.>>

 

Seriously though, besides some multiplayer source ports, the only time I remember seeing multiplayer on the original games, is with the Gameboy Advance ports and I prefer that lack of multiplayer.

 

And ok, we today have Zandronum, which is truly great, but was it made by id? I think not. Does today's id have the original masterminds from the classic Dooms? No! Then why in the world would you take a chance to make something up, just for the sake of money and to please the stereotype of <<All newer games must have multiplayer.>>, when you don't even have the slightest idea of what you are creating? Yes, they could look up to the history of Quake, Unreal Tournament and those kinds of arena shooters and bring the experience to the players, according to those games, but they are modern developers, so why not just make the same things over and over again?

 

I don't know, but if I buy that new computer that I keep talking about, then I will surely buy Doom 2016. But only for the singleplayer. (correct me if I am wrong in any of the points I made).

[Cynical]

40 minutes ago, Woolie Wool said:

Plus, last time I played it, the visuals and presentation of UT4 gave no indication that they would ever be even close to AAA quality.

Things have changed a lot in the last year or so.  Community-built maps like Salt, Lea, Backspace, Unsaved, Pistola, etc. all have AAA quality visuals.

[Big Ol Billy]

I really enjoyed Doom 2016, probably just short of being able to say I "loved" it. I think the best thing you could say about it is that it felt to me like a really really advanced HD graphics Doom mod, i.e. it took some things from the original game, doubled down on them, and added some new wrinkles. Like a lot of mods, it's a more limited experience than the impossibly rich OG Dooms, but partially because of that fact it has its own unique pleasures. That said, the big advantages of Dooms 1/2 were clearly:

 

• Permanent corpses. It really can't be overstated that THIS IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT GAMEPLAY MECHANIC. Of course it makes classic Arch-vile behavior possible, as many have noted. More importantly, though, it gives a sense of progression to maps (the satisfaction of looking around a room at all the enemies you've just finished killing, which to me is one of the key emotional components of the original games) and also helps navigation *immensely*, especially when things are a little same-y looking. You know for sure that you've been through certain areas and the trail of dead left behind helps you remember what went down, which is one of those little things that helps cement a memory of the gameplay narrative that *you* the player created.
• Gameplay, in pretty much every aspect. The arena fights of Doom 2016 were fun but repetitive, especially since you were so often locked in a location until you killed all the monsters. The original games offer much richer possibilities for how players, monsters, and the environment interact together, and part of this is because Doom 1/2 makes it pretty awkward to use killing a monster or set of monsters to directly trigger something. Especially in Romeroesque levels, the fact that monsters can wander around, that you can run out of traps rather than fighting, etc. makes the gameplay organic—things can play out *really* differently based on the choices you the player make. Any way you slice it, IMHO, there's orders of magnitude more "meaningful choice" in OG Dooms than in Doom 2016.   

 

There are numerous "nostalgic" aesthetic things one can prefer about Dooms 1/2, and I'm sympathetic to a lot of those, too. I really like some of the new mechanics, though—especially double-jumping, ledge grappling, glory kills, and the advanced monster traversal capabilities, which can make combat a really exciting and engaging experience and to some extent give the player a superior ability to develop a relationship to the environment through movement. But I think there are some significant (I'm tempted to say "objectively undeniable") areas where the new Doom, for all its advanced features and highly detailed graphics, is ultimately a more limited game in what it gives players to actually *do* and the "relationships" (with enemies and spaces) it fosters. But like I said, the same is true for a lot of mods and map packs, and that's often the point. Which is why I like to look at Doom 2016 as less of a "new Doom" and more of an especially shiny map pack that tries to milk as much fun as possible out of a certain style of arena combat by adding some cool new mechanics.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Big Ol Billy

[SaladBadger]

you can actually save the game whenever you want

 

that's the big thing I prefer in doom 1/2 over doom 2016. I don't even like save scumming. I just like being able to save when I feel like it.