Depending on your ear, modern metal isn't very "heavy"

[everennui]

I think his opinions don't go without merit. Music is a product, and it is marketed at certain demographics. Look at ICP for example. There's something in the music that's a bit more than just the music. I can't tell you how many times I've looked at a guy in a trench coat in 100 degree weather and thought, "let me guess, 'Slipknot fan'". There's tons of people who listen to punk rock music and feel like a green mohawk validates their choice in music and lifestyle.

Why can't @kb1talk about these things without being viewed as an elitist?

Too many people let the superficial define who they are.

[Maes]

On 6/30/2017 at 4:35 AM, Neurosis said:

I just don't think loudness wars and beefy compression is a bad thing. Sure, it can be a bad thing. But for some artists, this is the desired and intended effect. Like with a Boris song, they WANT to sound powerful and overwhelming, and they do. Because they're able to execute their sound in a fresh and exciting way instead of just Cookie Monster banging on a trash can like Cannibal Corpse over there. 

It's one thing just recording a constantly loud sound or noise (e.g. an engine running at constant RPM), and another having lots of dynamic range AND rapid changes without clipping/distortion which is what actually makes Metal sound "powerful". On the converse, classical music recordings may often have even greater dynamic range, but variation is nearly non-existent: 90% of the time may be ultra-low-volume and then only a few crescendos will actually make use of the full range. That's also where having better-than-16-bit depth or some technology like HDCD comes in handy.

 

"Loudness wars" mastering tends to make everything just like the engine I mentioned above. Yes, it's LOUD...and nothing more.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Defining yourself by a certain music genre sounds extremely silly to me, hell I might laugh if someone told me they identify as a rock fan with a straight face.

[DeathevokatioN]

On 8/22/2017 at 1:29 AM, Mr. Freeze said:

Metal elitism is pathetic. Metalsucks put it best

 

 

 

Oh, the same site with whom Napalm Death was so disgusted at, that Barney Greenway hid their banner with Napalm Death's at a gig? The same site who did some hard hitting journalism and went after Children of Bodom over racist lyrics in their shock band in the 90's when they were kids but in a twist of fate it turns out the interviewer in her 30's feigning moral outrage was bragging about owning Swastika shirts in 2010. The same site who caused Destroyer 666 to be on the receiving end of death threats because of some poorly informed "becuz they hate antifa so does that mean they're actual racist assholes?".

 

Metalsucks is the buzzfeed of metal, the gossip and clickbait site that no one really asked for, and Jesus fucking Christ does that article come across every bit as condescending, scathing and wait for it.. elitist..  as the people they're talking about, not to mention the ad populim fallacy and the [current year] argument, using "normal people" as some arbituary standard for what defines metal or not.. looking at your posting, there's really no ground you can stand on and skawk about elitism, atleast have the decency to double down on your first few posts.

Edited August 25, 2017 by DeathevokatioN

[[McD] James]

 

25 minutes ago, DeathevokatioN said:

Oh, the same site whom Napalm Death was so disgusted with that Barney Greenway hid their banner with Napalm Death's at a gig? The same site who did some hard hitting journalism and went after Children of Bodom over racist lyrics in their shock band in the 90's when they were kids but in a twist of fate it turns out the interviewer in her 30's feigning moral outrage was bragging about owning Swastika shirts in 2010. The same site who caused Destroyer 666 to be on the receiving end of death threats because of some poorly informed "becuz they hate antifa so does that mean they're actual racist assholes?".

 

Metalsucks is the buzzfeed of metal, the gossip and clickbait site that no one really asked for, and Jesus fucking Christ does that article comes across every bit as condescending, scathing and wait for it.. elitist..  as the people they're talking about, not to mention the ad populim fallacy and the [current year] argument, using "normal people" as some arbituary standard for what defines metal or not.. looking at your posting, there's really no ground you can stand on and skawk about elitism, atleast have the decency to double down on your first few posts.

 

Metalsucks is the very definition of journalistic claptrap. It belongs in the same dumpster fire that Polygon, Kotaku, and The Mary Sue should be relegated to. 

 

I can't help but find it ironic how the people bellyaching about metal elitists are the ones coming across as the most haughty. The people I like to drink and party with might rib me from time to time over listening to Dimmu Borgir, In Flames, Arch Enemy, or even Behemoth, but they're a lot more open minded and down to earth than some of the people here are.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Ajora

[Maes]

But is Metallica Metal?

[[McD] James]

12 minutes ago, Maes said:

But is Metallica Metal?

 

Load/Reload are more similar to hard rock than metal. Everything else they've done is metal. 

[Swine & Roses]

Manowar are the authority when it comes to the question wether something is Metal or not.

And they judged that Metallica is indeed not Metal. So be it. /s

[kb1]

10 hours ago, stru said:

@kb1 elitists like you are what makes certain communities so toxic

 

can you just like your own shit in peace? 

I'm part of the elite? Thanks, man!

 

What's toxic is speaking for the community, or as the community. There's no authoritative answer, there's just individual opinions.

It's dangerous to stand against the mob and use your own head. Speaking for "everyone" and following the crowd is a safe stance to take. That's what's toxic: An environment where individual thought is shunned and discouraged. That's an environment where everyone loses their identity. This is why I stand my ground.

 

 

9 hours ago, everennui said:

I think his opinions don't go without merit. Music is a product, and it is marketed at certain demographics. Look at ICP for example. There's something in the music that's a bit more than just the music. I can't tell you how many times I've looked at a guy in a trench coat in 100 degree weather and thought, "let me guess, 'Slipknot fan'". There's tons of people who listen to punk rock music and feel like a green mohawk validates their choice in music and lifestyle.

Why can't @kb1talk about these things without being viewed as an elitist?

Too many people let the superficial define who they are.

Thanks, everennui. If I see a guy in 100 degree weather with a trench coat, I think: "He's naked under there...", or "he has a shotgun." "Slipknot fan" would be the best of that scenario :)
 

9 hours ago, Pegg said:

Defining yourself by a certain music genre sounds extremely silly to me, hell I might laugh if someone told me they identify as a rock fan with a straight face.

 

8 hours ago, Ajora said:

Metalsucks is the very definition of journalistic claptrap. It belongs in the same dumpster fire that Polygon, Kotaku, and The Mary Sue should be relegated to. 

 

I can't help but find it ironic how the people bellyaching about metal elitists are the ones coming across as the most haughty. The people I like to drink and party with might rib me from time to time over listening to Dimmu Borgir, In Flames, Arch Enemy, or even Behemoth, but they're a lot more open minded and down to earth than some of the people here are.

I think the cliques are a puberty thing. The kids, with newly-raging hormones and growing bodies, realize that, to get laid, they need to be cool. Kids also want to figure out who they are. The industry presents this sought after image as something to believe in, as a substitute for an actual identity. The kids feel belonging and purpose, and the industry sells copies. Messing with that image is messing with that kid's identity. That's where the loyalty comes from.

 

Someone actually just liking the music presents a situation that doesn't fit the above scenario. In this way, the music fan is constantly disappointed, with brief spurts of good music in a sea of garbage. If I sound annoyed at today's music, it is solely based on my frustration at the lack of support for what I consider to be enjoyable music that makes me feel good to listen to. I know the talent is out there. But, the damn industry doesn't want talent - they are looking for the next freak show, and I'm not interested.

 

6 hours ago, Swine & Roses said:

Manowar are the authority when it comes to the question wether something is Metal or not.

And they judged that Metallica is indeed not Metal. So be it. /s

Nice avatar! Hmmm: "Manowaralica"

 

10 hours ago, Maes said:

It's one thing just recording a constantly loud sound or noise (e.g. an engine running at constant RPM), and another having lots of dynamic range AND rapid changes without clipping/distortion which is what actually makes Metal sound "powerful". On the converse, classical music recordings may often have even greater dynamic range, but variation is nearly non-existent: 90% of the time may be ultra-low-volume and then only a few crescendos will actually make use of the full range. That's also where having better-than-16-bit depth or some technology like HDCD comes in handy.

 

"Loudness wars" mastering tends to make everything just like the engine I mentioned above. Yes, it's LOUD...and nothing more.

HDCD - is that like a non-linear, floating-point encoding? It seems like floating-point would be able to capture all the subtlety in quiet passages, yet be able to handle huge volume spikes as well.

 

Before digital technology became popular, analog recording had become very very good. With today's digital technology, an uncompressed recording should be absolutely flawless, with a massive signal-to-noise ratio. Then they turn and start doing this. It's shameful. Then again, it's all noise anyway, the kids can't tell, right? This level of saturation is a first-class ticket to hearing loss, like no other. What? Exactly.

 

[RUSH]

On 8/21/2017 at 6:29 PM, Mr. Freeze said:

Metal elitism is pathetic. Metalsucks put it best

How can anyone take this article seriously? It is literally proposing the destruction of a musical form of art (every genre is an art form). Hence artistic creations are interpreted and appreciated differently by each of us. That's one of the most beautiful mysteries of the mind, in my opinion. Admiring the vast arc of taste everyone can have, and encountering what makes other people happy. "Why does this sound good to person A, but not me?" It is interesting, I think.

 

To suggest that metal should be destroyed just because *you* don't like or understand it is incredibly naive. There is a lot of passion, thought and time invested into the genre from tens of thousands of artists. And if people like it, good for them! Who are you to want to take it away? Or berate people needlessly for it? I don't enjoy country music. Does that mean I think the genre should be destroyed? Does that mean I think all country music lovers are stupid? No, of course not! That's an absurd generalization to make.

 

In fact, I'm having a hard time reading this. Because any journalist who writes with "ur" and "2" as a substitute for normal grammar essentially loses all credibility in my opinion. Unless the point of the article is to be purposely immature and inflammatory in a troll-ish manner.

 

In which case, it would match a lot of your posts.

[DesecratorJ]

Tbh, I never looked or visited this website... But just by its name and reputation I heard of, I knew it was a whole bunch of bs on it.

[Maes]

15 hours ago, kb1 said:

HDCD - is that like a non-linear, floating-point encoding? It seems like floating-point would be able to capture all the subtlety in quiet passages, yet be able to handle huge volume spikes as well.

More like a non-linear PCM. It still uses 16 bits, but only a portion of them is treated like regular linear PCM -14, effectively. The 2 remaining ones are  to be interpreted as companding cues. Supposedly backwards compatible with regular CDs and "transparent" to users of non-HDCD enabled players.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Definition_Compatible_Digital

 

[Koko Ricky]

On 8/25/2017 at 11:05 AM, Maes said:

But is Metallica Metal?

Despite the sarcasm, it's funny how Metallica has dipped in and out of what most would call metal, as they are, first and foremost, an accessible hard rock act. Perhaps they didn't start out that way, but after they got tired of recycling the same half-a-dozen-or-so thrash motifs over and over (let's face it, there's not much you can do with the genre), they inched toward a "safer" sound, culminating in Load and ReLoad which were essentially modern hard blues albums. Since they've shown a surprising amount of diversity in their crumminess, going from botched nu metal (St. Anger) to botched "alternative" something or other (Lulu), to uninspired neo-thrash filled to the brim with forgettable noodling (Death Magnetic) to whatever throwback disaster they shat out recently. They're one of those bands that has been an unaware self-parody for decades now, the epitome of generic heavy metal. 

[[McD] James]

On 8/27/2017 at 11:00 AM, GoatLord said:

They're one of those bands that has been an unaware self-parody for decades now, the epitome of generic heavy metal. 

 

To me, this sounds more like Anthrax. 

[Woolie Wool]

On 8/25/2017 at 0:12 AM, kb1 said:

I think the music industry's methods might indirectly promote or enable the formation, or duration of these cliques. They take simple songs and try to elevate them into social/political statements with deep messages that impressionable minds can latch onto. They're not selling songs, they're selling some sort of experience, a way of life, with a powerful message. Strange. They seem to be able to sell just about anything this way.

You do realize this is why "normal" people listen to music, right? Listening to music entirely for its own sake is actually a rather eccentric thing, and most people use music as a conduit for some sort of social experience, right? This is why club music is so popular--it's catchy, danceable music to jump around and have a good time and bond with other people to. The fact that the music doesn't stand up to scrutiny if you sit in your chair analyzing it misses its point. And I'm not going to be an awful try-hard Something Awful troll who's going to bash you for liking something "nerdy", but do realize that your point of view is not and will never be shared by the majority of people. Do you think people in the 18th century sat around listening to Haydn and Mozart symphonies all day? No, they mostly listened to "simple songs" made for dancing, drinking, and social entertainment, whether it's a minuet (Haydn and Mozart wrote hundreds and hundreds of minuets as formulaic and disposable as any Taylor Swift song) at a country estate or some drinking song in a village tavern that was never written down and is now lost to the sands of time.

 

And yes, this goes to "social/political statements" too. You can easily create a shared political experience around a pop song or a punk fight song or something else simple, clear, and catchy that everyone can join into and share the vibe. You cannot rally a protest around Achilles: Agony and Ecstasy in Eight Parts or whatever that ridiculous Manowar "epic" was called.

 

 

On 8/25/2017 at 9:32 PM, RUSH said:

How can anyone take this article seriously? It is literally proposing the destruction of a musical form of art (every genre is an art form). Hence artistic creations are interpreted and appreciated differently by each of us. That's one of the most beautiful mysteries of the mind, in my opinion. Admiring the vast arc of taste everyone can have, and encountering what makes other people happy. "Why does this sound good to person A, but not me?" It is interesting, I think.

 

To suggest that metal should be destroyed just because *you* don't like or understand it is incredibly naive. There is a lot of passion, thought and time invested into the genre from tens of thousands of artists. And if people like it, good for them! Who are you to want to take it away? Or berate people needlessly for it? I don't enjoy country music. Does that mean I think the genre should be destroyed? Does that mean I think all country music lovers are stupid? No, of course not! That's an absurd generalization to make.

 

In fact, I'm having a hard time reading this. Because any journalist who writes with "ur" and "2" as a substitute for normal grammar essentially loses all credibility in my opinion. Unless the point of the article is to be purposely immature and inflammatory in a troll-ish manner.

 

In which case, it would match a lot of your posts.

If that's Sergeant D (and I'm not about to read the article to find out), his whole schtick was posing as an over-the-top hipster stereotype and saying things that outrage metalheads. And comparing him to something like Kotaku is absurd. Kotaku actually does real journalism and real opinions--you might not personally like their opinions since they take a stand on identity politics that makes a lot of white male gamers uncomfortable, but Sergeant D was just an asshole who pissed people off for attention.

 

BTW you guys clutching your pearls at his article accomplished exactly what he wanted it to and made MetalSucks money. Congratulations, you have all just been clickbaited!

Edited August 28, 2017 by Woolie Wool

[lazygecko]

For the average listener/consumer, music is merely a vector for either celebrity worship or lifestyle/identity that make up the more overarching pop culture. And yeah, this is mainly what's being pushed by the record labels, and also the surrounding music press. Music journalism in general is pretty much a joke and seem to go out of their way to talk about anything but the actual music. Even in a magazine like The Rolling Stone you might at most see some lip service paid to production or lyrical themes. It's an odd situation especially if you juxtapose it against cinema where the average film critic seems far more likely to respect the intelligence of their audience and isn't afraid to discuss the actual filmmaking merits.

[Woolie Wool]

Congratulations on completely failing to miss my point, which is for the vast majority of people who have ever existed in human history, the social function of music--celebration, community, dancing, and yes, "lifestyle and identity" has always been more important than the content of the music itself. There were and still are cultures where music is never created just for its own sake, but only as a backdrop to a ceremonial or social occasion--even in Europe "absolute music" didn't exist until around 1500.

 

Also "a vector for lifestyle and identity" defines a large proportion of the currently extant heavy metal bands, which mostly write metal based on other metal for metalheads with suitably "metal" lyrics and band costumes and stage sets and the like. Metal is pretty much a closed circle of the same ideas recycling endlessly now.

[everennui]

"Congratulations on completely failing to miss my point..."

I'm sorry. Do you feel like he missed your point or didn't miss your point? :p

[kb1]

5 hours ago, Woolie Wool said:

You do realize this is why "normal" people listen to music, right? Listening to music entirely for its own sake is actually a rather eccentric thing, and most people use music as a conduit for some sort of social experience, right?

Wrong. I listen to music because I like how it sounds, I like its emotional content, I like to hear melody and harmony. I don't buy that that makes me eccentric - I find that notion ridiculous.

 

5 hours ago, Woolie Wool said:

 

This is why club music is so popular--it's catchy, danceable music to jump around and have a good time and bond with other people to. The fact that the music doesn't stand up to scrutiny if you sit in your chair analyzing it misses its point. And I'm not going to be an awful try-hard Something Awful troll who's going to bash you for liking something "nerdy", but do realize that your point of view is not and will never be shared by the majority of people.

Club music is popular because the beat mimics the human heart, and dancing lets you check out your girl's moves, and gives you a pathetically simple excuse to get physical with her. Duh.

 

I didn't know I was speaking to the ambassador of the people's views on music's purpose. How are "normal" people bonding with others as they drive down the freeway with their radios on? Do realize that my point is spot on, and try to not get hurt by that realization.

 

5 hours ago, Woolie Wool said:

Do you think people in the 18th century sat around listening to Haydn and Mozart symphonies all day? No, they mostly listened to "simple songs" made for dancing, drinking, and social entertainment, whether it's a minuet (Haydn and Mozart wrote hundreds and hundreds of minuets as formulaic and disposable as any Taylor Swift song) at a country estate or some drinking song in a village tavern that was never written down and is now lost to the sands of time.

Do you think people in the 18^th century had DVD/tape/record players/radios to allow them to listen to Haydn and Mozart all day? Heh. They listened to anything they could, which meant either being rich, where they could pay for a string quartet to play live and some celebratory function, or they listened to someone playing an instrument, or singing, or they played an instrument or sung themselves. Or, they went to hear people play. Typically, these were social events, because they did not own personal sound systems.

 

5 hours ago, Woolie Wool said:

And yes, this goes to "social/political statements" too. You can easily create a shared political experience around a pop song or a punk fight song or something else simple, clear, and catchy that everyone can join into and share the vibe. You cannot rally a protest around Achilles: Agony and Ecstasy in Eight Parts or whatever that ridiculous Manowar "epic" was called.

This is what I was proclaiming to be kind of shameful, in most contexts. It's taking advantage of the emotional effect that music can have on people, to further some random agenda. It's a common Jedi mind trick that people fall for every day.

 

5 hours ago, Woolie Wool said:

If that's Sergeant D (and I'm not about to read the article to find out), his whole schtick was posing as an over-the-top hipster stereotype and saying things that outrage metalheads. And comparing him to something like Kotaku is absurd. Kotaku actually does real journalism and real opinions--you might not personally like their opinions since they take a stand on identity politics that makes a lot of white male gamers uncomfortable, but Sergeant D was just an asshole who pissed people off for attention.

 

BTW you guys clutching your pearls at his article accomplished exactly what he wanted it to and made MetalSucks money. Congratulations, you have all just been clickbaited!

You had me here, all the way up to the "white male gamers" bit. We're all supposed to be created equal, yet people keep fanning the flames...

I followed the link, which let me verify that those words were not written by Mr. Freeze, thank goodness, just some punk spewing shit.

 

4 hours ago, Woolie Wool said:

Congratulations on completely failing to miss my point, which is for the vast majority of people who have ever existed in human history, the social function of music--celebration, community, dancing, and yes, "lifestyle and identity" has always been more important than the content of the music itself. There were and still are cultures where music is never created just for its own sake, but only as a backdrop to a ceremonial or social occasion--even in Europe "absolute music" didn't exist until around 1500.

 

Also "a vector for lifestyle and identity" defines a large proportion of the currently extant heavy metal bands, which mostly write metal based on other metal for metalheads with suitably "metal" lyrics and band costumes and stage sets and the like. Metal is pretty much a closed circle of the same ideas recycling endlessly now.

Your point wasn't missed, it just sucked. There you go again, with that "vast majority of people who have ever existed in human history" stuff. Does the vast majority of people wipe back to front, or front to back? Or does your "vast knowledge" only extend to people's music habits?

 

How about leave the fake stats out of your argument? Of the music habits of all the people in the world that I can report on with authority, me, your theory falls flat. I listen to music cause I like to hear music. So, so far, you're 0 and 1.

 

You may have your cause and effect backwards: Musicians may play at certain social events, 'cause that's where they will be heard. Musicians perfect their craft over many years. They want to be heard. Where better than at celebrations, events, social settings?

 

That was true all the way until the 20^th century, when people had access to technology that would allow for the recording and playback of music, where the musicians did not have to be present. For the first time in known history, music could be generated without the musicians being present. This allowed the music to be separated from the function, which allows for free listening, without all the social distractions.

 

You claim that current metal bands recycle ideas and maintain a "metal identity." For the last few posts, I've been proclaiming: "Those bands are NOT metal." There are no "metal ideas". Being "Metal" describes the music, and the attitude. Today's bands may have the attitude, but they can't produce the music. And, if they are trying to copy ideas, they don't have the attitude either. So, I guess on that we agree.

[RUSH]

On 8/28/2017 at 2:25 PM, Woolie Wool said:

If that's Sergeant D (and I'm not about to read the article to find out), his whole schtick was posing as an over-the-top hipster stereotype and saying things that outrage metalheads. And comparing him to something like Kotaku is absurd. Kotaku actually does real journalism and real opinions--you might not personally like their opinions since they take a stand on identity politics that makes a lot of white male gamers uncomfortable, but Sergeant D was just an asshole who pissed people off for attention.

 

BTW you guys clutching your pearls at his article accomplished exactly what he wanted it to and made MetalSucks money. Congratulations, you have all just been clickbaited!

I did not compare him to Kotaku.

 

I am well aware that the article is clickbait. I acknowledged this in my post that you quoted. I clicked and read it, because I wanted to critique it. This form of trolling is juvenile and annoying. And it needs to be labeled as such. Along with the person who posted it.

 

But I guess being mildly annoyed enough to comment means that "they won"?

[kb1]

And the prize was...a click? That's hard-up.

[Koko Ricky]

@Woolie Wool, I thought your riff on deeply analyzing music being an eccentric activity interesting. I myself am basically unable to experience music any other way. Whether it's country, jazz, dubstep, metal, ambient, funk or whatever, there is a constant dissection of notation, melody, harmony, rhythm, key, scale, timbre, technique, complexity, etc. This is especially apparent when I drum to my favorite tracks, since it requires a keen awareness of every part of the song, and few activities are more enjoyable than completely nailing it. Even when I listen to noise music like Merzbow, an artist who completely disavows rhythm and melody in favor of pure texture, it does not escape my scrutiny. I analyze everything I listen to rather obsessively, and perhaps because of that I can appreciate virtually every genre that exists. 

[kb1]

Being a musician encourages the brain to pick it apart, into its components, which is good at times, and maybe detrimental at others. The individual components don't tell the whole story. For me, a good song has a value that is greater than the sum of its parts. A good song speaks to you emotionally, even spiritually.

 

I concede that there may be some uses for the listening of music in social settings. But, for me, the real enjoyment is in the way music moves me, mind, body, and soul, you know? That's what we should focus most of our energy on - that's the good stuff.