Some sort of sourceport mapping debate (split from Teleporting Monsters)

[Breezeep]

All I see here is 40oz doing his usual passive-aggressive posting. I'm not even surprised.

[40oz]

 

9 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

And you did that where in this thread here?

 

I didn't find out about this thread until just today. Hardcore gamer is the only one participating on his side of the argument and was promptly driven away (as far as i can tell) in the amount of time it took for me to see it.

 

 

[Linguica]

55 minutes ago, 40oz said:

There is a way. Its asking clarifying questions.

It's not the job of the reader to tease out what the writer is actually trying to say.

[40oz]

I dont understand the point youre making. I agree that its no ones job here to do anything at all.

[Nine Inch Heels]

47 minutes ago, 40oz said:

I dont understand the point youre making. I agree that its no ones job here to do anything at all.

The point is that I, as the supposed reader, am not in a position to respond to arguments which I cannot read, because they have not yet been written. To that you can add the fact that Hardcore_gamer did not only state his POV in a fashion that was rude and derailed another thread, but you'd do well to also take into account that Lo_Mein (Who started the thread this was split from) and I have responded to his comment (which is now this thread's OP) in a very calm and laid back manner, only to get "deconstructed" by Hardcore_gamer, as you like to call it. Don't get me started on how it was him who actually started using snide remarks such as this:

Quote

They do this for the same reason there still exists a handful of people that would rather use a typewritter than a computer. It's just a stubborn form of conservatism.

It's at this point that I would like to advise you to think twice about going against the grain for the sake of going against the grain.

[Fonze]

Hardcore_gamer's long-time tendency to make troll-ish posts, then cherrypick responses to troll-ishly respond to does not help against the "dog piling." 

 

If nobody can relate to your side of the debate, then everybody who says something will be either speaking against you or ignoring you. That's all there is to it.

[leodoom85]

8 minutes ago, Fonze said:

Hardcore_gamer's long-time tendency to make troll-ish posts, then cherrypick responses to troll-ishly respond to does not help against the "dog piling." 

 

If nobody can relate to your side of the debate, then everybody who says something will be either speaking against you or ignoring you. That's all there is to it.

That's why I said before that he did a "great job" creating this topic...just to see our reaction of this. He probably must be laughing....

[40oz]

 

1 hour ago, Fonze said:

Hardcore_gamer's long-time tendency to make troll-ish posts, then cherrypick responses to troll-ishly respond to does not help against the "dog piling." 

 

If nobody can relate to your side of the debate, then everybody who says something will be either speaking against you or ignoring you. That's all there is to it.

The conflict im addressing here is the discrepancy between two distinct issues:

 

1. The validity of hardcore_gamers side of the debate.

 

2. Being on the same side as hardcore_gamer.

 

Since the context of the thread this was split from keeps being brought up, it would seem (2) is taking precedence over (1), for a lot of people here, right? The questions he has raised are pretty strong. Outside of subjective preference, ZDoom is better when it comes to ease of access and flexibility. I really don't think there's a strong argument against that. But you can certainly join the always welcoming "not hardcore_gamer" team and firebomb the thread with long winded posts until he gets bored of carrying the massive burden of responding to too many people who post every five minutes while everyone else only has to respond to one.

[Fonze]

40, the issue people are having here isn't what he said, it's how he said it. You are a socially-smart person; how do you not see that? The fact that he bombed that off-topic in the middle of a thread where somebody was asking for help really makes its appearance much worse and is why the thread was split (to preserve the "asking for help" thread). If he made a new thread and said the same thing, but in a way that didn't come across as condescending to mappers who do not use zDoom, then mappers who do not uss zDoom would approach the thread and their possible response in a different way.

 

You're 1 and 2 scenario fails to account for how the statement was presented, and therefore the logic which follows is fundamentally flawed.

[Da Werecat]

This debate is a dead horse. No matter the outcome, everyone will use the tools they consider adequate for a given task.

You can try and put self-expression into the Procrustes bed of perfectly straightforward logic, but if you really want to do that, then you should pick your words very carefully. Otherwise people will have a good, justified reason to laugh at you.

[Jaxxoon R]

On 7/8/2017 at 0:47 PM, Jayextee said:

Guys like hardcore_moaner here make me sorta want to just make vanilla maps forever.

Ah, good! less competition for me, then!

[esselfortium]

2 hours ago, 40oz said:

The questions he has raised are pretty strong. Outside of subjective preference, ZDoom is better when it comes to ease of access and flexibility. I really don't think there's a strong argument against that.

Boom and vanilla wads typically also work in ZDoom, so I don't understand your argument for ZDoom mapping having more ease of access. If you mean ZDoom mapping itself being more accessible, I think that's pretty subjective and doesn't have a right or wrong answer, because different mappers both new and old have different preferences that have been pretty well laid out here already.

[R1ck]

1 hour ago, Da Werecat said:

This debate is a dead horse. No matter the outcome, everyone will use the tools they consider adequate for a given task.

You can try and put self-expression into the Procrustes bed of perfectly straightforward logic, but if you really want to do that, then you should pick your words very carefully. Otherwise people will have a good, justified reason to laugh at you.

Someone gets it.

[Fletcher`]

In the end, what does all this fighting even matter? Use whatever port you want to use and stop shitting on others' personal preferences. I thought we were adults here.

 

On 7/9/2017 at 7:01 PM, bonnie said:

i dont map for zdoom because i honestly can't imagine unironically playing in a zdoom port

That is the most hipster reason I've ever heard to do anything.

 

7 hours ago, Da Werecat said:

The "auto-suck" attitude is exactly what we shouldn't do here, even if we pick a side.

Your first map will always suck. There's just no way around it. The trick to not sucking is to do it more and learn.

 

[bonnie]

2 minutes ago, rf` said:

That is the most hipster reason I've ever heard to do anything.

I wasn't trying to be a hipster. I was just trying to say it in somewhat more polite terms. Sorry :/

[kb1]

Ever listen to '70s music? Ever ride in a restored '57 Thunderbird, or '73 Gran Torino? Ever taste an aged wine or whiskey?

Without Doom, there'd be no Boom. Without Boom, there'd be no ZDoom, at least not as it is. I personally don't believe that "getting with the times" means discarding the giants who's shoulders you're standing on. I like all the ports, and can enjoy all of them. How boring would Doom be if there was only one way to play/map? I'm sorry hardcore gamer: maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like you're fishing for a fight here.

[MrGlide]

It's not even really a debate, It sure as hell wasn't proposed as one. It was just one member being a douche, as is typical for for said member, and that's why there was the reaction that there was. As for Mapping for Zdoom, I don't see myself doing it unless I want to make a full blown mod, like survival or something. Acs is what is appealing to me in regards of Zdoom. I see little reason to map for Zdoom otherwise. other than that, why don't I just make quake maps?

[Voros]

IMO, I consider ZDoom more interesting for making mods rather than maps. Sure, the ZDoom/UDM format have plenty of features that can help create beautiful (in terms of graphics and gameplay) maps, but honestly? You rarely see people making ZDoom maps. Most people are interested in the other aspects of ZDoom, like DECORATE, ZScript and ACS.

But the format is more complex than Boom, and takes time to properly learn it. Talented people, that I know, like Xaser and Sergeant_Mark_IV seemed to have mastered the format and created beautiful (in terms of graphics and gameplay) maps, but they don't release maps these days, rather mods. Who wouldn't? Would you rather make a ZDoom map or a ZDoom mod?

A map is always map, but a mod can be more. You don't find that in other ports (maybe Eternity and 3DGE though).

[Doomkid]

On 7/10/2017 at 11:03 AM, Ru5tK1ng said:

Real mappers can map in any format at will and aren't afraid to try and learn new/different things.

Never afraid to learn new things, but I've tried making good use of ZDoom's advanced features but (so far) have usually ended up with something I'm not satisfied with. Am I a "fake mapper" because I can't competently map in any given format at will? Sounds pretty lulzy to me personally

 

 

Quote

You rarely see people making ZDoom maps.

@Voros I actually kinda think this is a shame despite the fact that I work best in vanilla. I've seen some absolutely stunning maps, visually speaking, stuff that simply is not possible in Vanilla or even Boom.

 

Seriously folks, go have a wander around the maps in Aeon Deathmatch - Use GZDoom or Zandronum and check out maps aeon04, aeon06, aeon08, aeon25.. Preferably in OpenGL mode. A lot of maps in this wad are totally gorgeous yet impossible in vanilla/boom and I think it's a crying shame that we haven't got a single SP mapset matching this in terms of face-melting prettiness. I consider myself a pretty good vanilla mapper and "my jam" is always going to be wads that feel close to the source material, but the quality is just so high and the visuals just so uniquely beautiful for a Doom mod that I honestly see loads of potential for ZDoom SP/Coop wads that simply hasn't been filled yet. I may be the wadist oldschoolexual, but even I am always willing to admit Vanilla/Boom's limitations.

 

A really awesome sp/coop ZDoom megawad could honestly be a fantastic thing if done right.

 

To get back to the topic - at the end of the day, no one format is superior, they're all just different in a variety of ways. With all the stuff I've just said praising quality ZDoom work, I'd still never be loony enough to claim that the format itself is just flat out better, it's far more accurate to say it's tailored to make a different variety of Doom map altogether. It's like saying Swing is inferior to Metal just because the average Metal song hits more notes per second or something - It's moronically trying to quantify something that aught not be quantified. The two are simply different, no more, no less. There's a wonderful vibe given off by a quality oldschool-style map that simply cannot be achieved while using ZDoom fanciness.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Doomkid

[Voros]

Isn't the Starter Pack Hell On Earth a singleplayer/coop ZDoom megawad?

But I agree that ZDoom maps can be damn beautiful both visually and gameplay, such as Sergeant_Mark_IV's maps. Although, guys like him tend to be already good on any format. Example:

Old: https://github.com/freedoom/freedoom/blob/93a64a8b6ce325ce9cf2e309e8a755a00b44ba77/levels/map17.wad
New: http://www.mediafire.com/download/f7099udwg72dy1p/sgtmarkivfreedoommAP17.WAD

[Maes]

Let alone that prBoom+ vs ZDoom is becoming a kind of false dichotomy: prBoom+ has diverged so much from the original Boom that, as it has been observed, it should really be considered a platform of its own or, at least, as a proper subset of ZDoom (ZDoom - ZDoom specific stuff like scripting = prBoom+). If anything, it's proper "vanilla Boom" mapping that seems to have been all but abandoned.

[40oz]

8 hours ago, esselfortium said:

I don't understand your argument for ZDoom mapping having more ease of access.

The argument is hardcore_gamer’s, not mine. I’m not taking credit for it. He says the capabilities of ZDoom are not limited to cosmetic stuff like slopes and 3D floors or whatever else. Vanilla and Boom have things like hardcoded map-specific specials that mapper’s have learned to work around. For example, the lowering walls in E1M8 or MAP07 on boss deaths, or the exit map on boss death in E2M8, E3M8, and E4M8, or the story text interludes. These are all conducive to the player’s experience are all fixed in vanilla and boom.  And that’s only the beginning. In ZDoom, every trap can include a sequence of theatrical events, ambushes controlled by much more actions than switch presses, gunfire switches, or walkover specials. Teleport ambushes especially, don’t have to exist under certain conditions like having a dummy sector outside of the map, the monsters needing space to move, the teleport linedefs facing the right way, or the monsters ‘hearing’ your gunfire. Under a specific coding language you can tell the game to do exactly what you want it to do. And it’s much more precise than tinkering with the level design until you get the results you desire. Ask Dragonfly about Skulldash, Tormentor667 about Blade of Agony, or Soundblock about Echelon. ZDoom is better at letting the level designer do what the designer wants the game to do. This isn’t a question about compatibility with other source ports, demo recording, the complexity of the source ports design, or that an excessive set of features is daunting for new level designers. The question is “If something is better, why advise against using the thing that’s better?”

 

[Da Werecat]

7 hours ago, rf` said:

Your first map will always suck. There's just no way around it. The trick to not sucking is to do it more and learn.

You mean the first thing you ever save in the editor? Or the first map ever finished and released?

 

8 minutes ago, 40oz said:

This isn’t a question about compatibility with other source ports, demo recording, the complexity of the source ports design, or that an excessive set of features is daunting for new level designers. The question is “If something is better, why advise against using the thing that’s better?”

Maybe you should beg some more, and it will be like that.

[40oz]

Its in the thread title. If you want to talk about something else, then make your own thread.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by 40oz

[Da Werecat]

Of course it is.

[dew]

44 minutes ago, 40oz said:

Its in the thread title. If you want to talk about something else then make your own thread.

Some sort of sourceport mapping debate (split from Teleporting Monsters). Riiiiiight.

 

Do you think everyone's blind to your "subtle" attempts to backseat mod this debate? You decided that you're going to fight the majority opinion here and box the debate into some borders you arbitrarily chose. Most of your posts are pathetic dismissals of other people's arguments, because they don't fit your narrow narrative. Thick paragraphs of validating your point of view, not actually arguing the case.

 

11 hours ago, 40oz said:

Since the context of the thread this was split from keeps being brought up, it would seem (2) is taking precedence over (1), for a lot of people here, right? The questions he has raised are pretty strong.

I nearly choked on my drink. You don't bulletproof your arguments by trying to sound like a philosophy PhD high on their own farts.

[jazzmaster9]

18 hours ago, Jayextee said:

If 'moving with the times' means not knowing how to tag sectors properly to linedef actions, have little regard for things stuck in ceilings, and whatever other horrible mapping practices that come with starting with ZDoom instead of building good fundamentals (I'm saying nothing of bland boxy maps with Realm 667 critters up the wazoo), then I'm real happy to be a dinosaur. Fuck it, I'm calling dibs on being a Stegosaur. They're awesome, yo.

Yep. because we should totaly blame The tool for a shitty mapper.

 

I started with ZDoom but still tag my maps properly when making Boom and Vanilla maps so I call BS on blaming modern ports for that 

[Jayextee]

So those aren't commonly-known bad habits of ZDoom mappers? My bad, clearly.

[jazzmaster9]

1 minute ago, Jayextee said:

So those aren't commonly-known bad habits of ZDoom mappers? My bad, clearly.

Nope. they are habbits of bad mappers who don't research/learn their map formats.

Don't blame a tool because of a shit user.

[CapnClever]

On 7/7/2017 at 6:43 PM, hardcore_gamer said:

I honestly don't get it why people don't just map for zdoom.

Here's an obvious one: if you don't play using a ZDoom port, you're not going to map with ZDoom in mind. It doesn't take much to learn that less than 100% of the playerbase uses ZDoom, and even less to make the inferential leap that some of these players are mappers. And mappers certainly aren't going to map in a format that makes it impossible to play their own maps correctly.

 

Now you could make the assertion that everyone should use a ZDoom-based port, but that's a much harder sell. Whereas UDMF and ACS and whatnot are simply a means to do more than vanilla or Boom can do, ZDoom carries a lot more weight in terms of fundamental changes to the original Doom experience. This includes a number of patches people consider important to said experience. It's not completely unreasonable say that ZDoom is among the least Doom-like ports, whereas other source ports sacrifice extensible mechanics to better emulate that game from 1993. Ultimately, moreso than a mapper being used to the tools they map with, a player is used to the engine they play with, and trying to convince them to pick up all their experience and move to another engine is difficult indeed.

 

I mean, I use all sorts of source ports. If it's supposed to be in Vanilla I'll head over to Chocolate Doom; if it's limit-removing I'll choose Crispy Doom; if it's Boom I'll pick up PrBoom+ or Eternity Engine; and for ZDoom-only stuff, I'll move toward GZDoom. To say that ZDoom-based ports are my last choice isn't to say that I specifically dislike the engine, rather than I prefer things that play closer to the original executable and that ZDoom ports are the furthest from this. If everyone were to suddenly map in UDMF from now until forever, I'd be disappointed but move on: it's not that much of a deal-breaker. But unless that happens, I'd rather play the closest I can to the mapper's intent.