Some sort of sourceport mapping debate (split from Teleporting Monsters)

[leodoom85]

21 minutes ago, Arctangent said:

To be fair, hardcore_gamer might've been but a wee toddler ten years ago, if he's who I think he is.

Still he did a good job bringing this "debate" which.....really, it's out of the question to this day.

[SaladBadger]

25 minutes ago, Arctangent said:

To be fair, hardcore_gamer might've been but a wee toddler ten years ago, if he's who I think he is.

he was on these forums 10 years ago (check the reg date, I also remember him posting around that time) so that would be pretty impressive, actually.

 

granted, he hasn't changed too much in those 10 years, as far as I remember.

[bonnie]

i dont map for zdoom because i honestly can't imagine unironically playing in a zdoom port

[Arctangent]

Would you care to explain why you think ZDoom is something to only be played ironically, of all things?

[esselfortium]

I only play Doom ironically, period. Gotta have your iron.

[Nine Inch Heels]

Spinach-Doom confirmed?

[Decay]

Hey didn't we see this thread a couple months ago?

 

I don't think many people use zdoom to its fullest extent but I firmly believe it is superior to fossil formats like boom :O)

[Ru5tK1ng]

Real mappers can map in any format at will and aren't afraid to try and learn new/different things.

[R1ck]

I mapping on zoom format just for acs. Which is I didn't fully understand yet haha. 

 

Currently mapping for boom. I gotta say, the limitations or restrictions and stuff made me thinking another way around which is fun. Might decide it as my main map format.

 

However, let's don't forget the fact that no matter what format the map is, if it's shit, it's shit. 

[printz]

On 08.07.2017 at 1:43 AM, hardcore_gamer said:

I honestly don't get it why people don't just map for zdoom. What exactly are the benefits of mapping in boom format for the sake of maintaining vanilla support? It's 2017. Get on with the times.

There's this ambition of making something extraordinary with only limited resources. I also feel like wanting to make a megawad for vanilla Doom without even Dehacked or any custom resources, but haven't managed to move forth with it.

[ReX]

On 7/10/2017 at 0:52 AM, printz said:

There's this ambition of making something extraordinary with only limited resources.

This is why I continue to create maps with vanilla/chocolate DooM compatibility. There is a satisfaction to be gained from doing something creative with limited resources.

 

Having said that, I continue to create works for GZDooM, as that format affords me the opportunity to create stuff I can't do in vanilla/chocolate DooM. I'd say I have the best of both worlds.

[cybdmn]

On 8.7.2017 at 0:43 AM, hardcore_gamer said:

I honestly don't get it why people don't just map for zdoom.

For the same reason a sculptor will not use a brush and paint, even if that would make his sculptures more realistic. For the same reason Ansel Adams mostly does B/W photographs. People have a vision, and use exactly the tools and materials needed to made this vision real. No more or less.

[40oz]

Since hardcore_gamer just got dogpiled by a million people for raising an interesting point, I feel like I should probably weigh in here.

Let me start by saying that I prefer Limit Removing mapping above all else, and would normally advise new mappers to start the same way. Aside from a short tone, it’s ridiculous to say that hardcore_gamer isn’t raising a good point. If everything to do with ZDoom is easier, faster, and more direct, then why not do everything the ZDoom way? From a level designers perspective, I can’t really say I know for sure why I don’t use ZDoom. For me, I feel as though it might have something to do with the feeling of completeness knowing that I’ve optimized all the limits the engine has to offer in my level designs. Especially when I get carried away with little details, a limitless port like ZDoom could have me spending many thousands of hours tinkering with things that don’t really matter for the complete experience. When I really think about it, it’s more a self-control thing than anything else. My mega-cool-and-whatnot ZDoom project might take the rest of my life to complete and may never ever touch a file sharing service.

From a playing perspective, playing ZDoom often feels weird to me. It’s mostly a combination of little details known as ZDoomisms that collectively add up to feel unlike the game I’ve always loved. So in response I prefer more natural “only-change-what-really-matters” type source ports for my playing. When mappers design their maps and only test in ZDoom that eliminates me from playing comfortably in their map, so I often bump them to the bottom of my dooming adventure playlist in favor of more Doom themed stuff.

For new mappers, I think they have a lot to gain by first attempting to design a project within the scope of the original game’s basic building blocks before getting into ZDoom, for the same reasons it might make sense to have some experience driving a car before researching how to fly a helicopter, even though a helicopter is a more direct means of travel. Too often I see overly ambitious people want to design a TC with all new guns and monsters and textures and just sloppily jam everything they find into a PK3 file and have no idea how to add textures to their own map the normal way, which makes participating in things like community projects very confusing for them. And that's an annoying thing to deal with.

For myself, and other experienced mappers, there’s no good answer for hardcore_gamer’s points outside of a subjective preference.  I like demo recording, I like standard Doom, and I like to make my maps for hardcore_doomers, instead of hardcore_gamers. In the end, I do think RustKing said it best, though. A truly fashioned mapper could work in a variety of mapping formats.

[Nine Inch Heels]

3 minutes ago, 40oz said:

it’s ridiculous to say that hardcore_gamer isn’t raising a good point

Nobody said he wasn't raising a good point. His argument is that ZDoom maps are superior to boom or vanilla because they have ZDoom features, which is a claim he was not only unable to back by way of facts, his claim can easily be proven wrong just by taking a look at which megwads earned their creators a MOTY.

 

Speaking of raising good points, it is more than obvious by now that ZDoom formats along with their respective flagship sourceport GZDoom crap all over vanilla doom behaviour, as is evidenced not only by constantly breaking demo compatibility, but also by way adjusting hitboxes for fist/chainsaw based combat, to give another example.

 

If there ever was one good point about not playing/mapping in ZDoom and sticking to vanilla/boom instead, it's that boom does a much better job of retaining the Doom's original behaviour. For better or for worse certainly is subject to the eye of the beholder, but for me personally, that has become an important aspect of the "older" formats.

[Cynical]

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 3:47 PM, Nine Inch Heels said:

I wouldn't go as far as saying he's 100% wrong in regards to ZDoom offering more options than, say, boom for example. My take on it is that more often than not these advanced features aren't meaningful, because they're used in non-meaningful ways.

 

If you look at things like actual 3D floors as you can see them a lot in sotnr, that is actually a meaningful feature, if it is put to good use. Hiding a shoot switch behind stairs like in quake for example is something boom can't do just like that, since it doesn't work with actual 3D floors. Boom needs to resort to faux-3D trickery, for example. The real question is though, how much of an improvement would such a shoot-switch actually be, when there's a myriad of other ways to hide a secret? Is it different? Absolutely. Is it objectively better? Hard to tell...

 

Sticking with sotnr, in map02 you have a hitscanner ledge in an outside area which has two floors. That's where a feature has been used in a meaningful way, because it adds something to the experience, especially since sotnr requires mouselook. Does that make sotnr02 overall better than a good boom format map in terms of gameplay just because of how this feature has been used? I'd argue it doesn't. By no means do I mean say anything good or bad about the quality of YukiRaven's set by poiting this out, but I actually do not see where the appeal of this is so huge that it would elevate any boom-format set to the most amazing heights of gameplay, when you can accomplish similar experiences with clever use of map geometry even in vanilla format maps.

 

If you want another example of ZDoom based trickery, have a look at Tarakannik3. Some of the maps in this kind of niche set use features in interesting ways, which sets it apart from chillax (which actually also is a ZDoom based set that is "forced" into boom) for example. Is Tarakanik3 overall better because of this? Not necessarily.

 

What I mean to say is that, if you're competent at using a specific mapping format so you can take advantage of its features, you can create something unique if you employ these features well, but that doesn't make any (G)ZDoom based map better than any other boom map or vice versa.

 

From my point of view, Hardcore_gamer is lowballing the advantages that come with the boom format, while overestimating the advantages of (G)ZDoom based mapping. Especially the aspect of accessibility is huge, because there will always be more new mappers than experienced ones. And if new mappers feel forced to make maps in (G)ZDoom format from the get go by way of "community induced pressure", there's a good chance most of them will stop trying before even finishing their second or third map, let alone megawads, and that is a huge drawback in and off itself already.

3D floors add less than you're giving them credit for, though.  You can recreate a lot of that kind of functionality with pillar runs.  That's what I do whenever I want a "Unreal Tournament style catwalk thing" in a map.

[40oz]

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Nobody said he wasn't raising a good point. His argument is that ZDoom maps are superior to boom or vanilla because they have ZDoom features, which is a claim he was not only unable to back by way of facts, his claim can easily be proven wrong just by taking a look at which megwads earned their creators a MOTY.

Well no one acknowledged that he was making a good point either. There's much more snide and sarcastic remarks and deconstruction of his arguments than an attempt to understand his position. Your interpretation of his argument clarifies that.

[Da Werecat]

What's there to understand beyond "MOAR FEATURES = BETTUR"?

 

This could be interpreted two ways: mapping for ZDoom is better, and ZDoom maps are better. The former is up to debate, but the latter was voiced too.

[Nine Inch Heels]

On 8.7.2017 at 10:47 PM, Nine Inch Heels said:

I wouldn't go as far as saying he's 100% wrong in regards to ZDoom offering more options than, say, boom for example. My take on it is that more often than not these advanced features aren't meaningful, because they're used in non-meaningful ways.

 

8 minutes ago, 40oz said:

Well no one acknowledged that he was making a good point either. There's much more snide and sarcastic remarks and deconstruction of his arguments than an attempt to understand his position. Your interpretation of his argument clarifies that.

Perhaps you should read my comments more carefully before telling me what I said and what I didn't say.

[40oz]

I would advise you do the same. That's really patting yourself on the back to quote a single sentence you made in what was otherwise a verbal assault to say hes somewhere between 0-99% wrong. You're kidding yourself to say that really counts for anything.

[esselfortium]

For context, the first half of this thread was a massive derail where hardcore_gamer showed up to denounce non-ZDoom mapping in a completely unrelated thread where someone else was asking for advice on setting up monster teleports. There was pushback not just because of his argument itself but because it was off-topic and rude to begin with.

[Da Werecat]

Poor misunderstood underdog. All he did was command people to get on with the times - trying to raise valid concerns in his usual sincere manner, no doubt - and the Doomworld meanies predictably reacted with unpleasantness. This is but one of the numerous tragedies caused by the spiteful mob that controls the thoughts of the community, holding them hostage to propagate their stagnant views.

 

Or something. Maybe just don't barge in accusing people of being dinosaurs next time. It rarely leads to anything productive. Although even now you can't really say that an exchange of opinions didn't happen - it simply happened in the manner set by the OP.

[Jayextee]

If 'moving with the times' means not knowing how to tag sectors properly to linedef actions, have little regard for things stuck in ceilings, and whatever other horrible mapping practices that come with starting with ZDoom instead of building good fundamentals (I'm saying nothing of bland boxy maps with Realm 667 critters up the wazoo), then I'm real happy to be a dinosaur. Fuck it, I'm calling dibs on being a Stegosaur. They're awesome, yo.

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 minute ago, 40oz said:

I would advise you do the same. That's really patting yourself on the back to quote a single sentence you made in what was otherwise a verbal assault to say hes somewhere between 0-99% wrong. Your kidding yourself to say that really counts for anything.

Cynical quoted the entire comment, take your time and read it, and then we can discuss if I was cherrypicking or not.

 

The fact of the matter is that if ZDoom maps were so much better than boom, it would have been easy to point out several examples to support that claim. As it stands, no efforts have been made thus far on Hardcore_gamer's end, while I could comfortably point to several wads which were well received throughout this community and beyond. To that you can add the fact that no other user here had something to show that would prove me or others entirely wrong. Essel also made a good point about how wads like SunLust are fantastic in spite of not employing the ZDoom format, and she knows both mapping formats better than most people, I'd assume.

 

The reality is that Hardcore_gamer did nothing, and I mean literally nothing, to underline his claim/opinion. So where are the award-winning ZDoom megawads, which blow every boom compatible set out the water, by being better in literally every respect? Do they even exist? If not, why did nobody make them yet? Can you, or Hardcore_gamer answer any of these questions thouroughly, or are you going to stick to arguing against how I argue, rather than discussing the topic in question?

 

Why did I not acknowledge he was making a good point and simply agreed with him? Simple: He didn't make a good point by saying boom-maps are inferior to ZDoom, because of ZDoom features being better than boom features. Features do not matter, what matters for players is the end result above all things, and boom compatible megawads have delivered time after time, year after year. Would Valiant be better if it had 3D floors and slopes and ACS? I don't know, but what I do know is that skillsaw is a damn fine mapper, and Valiant is better than any (G)ZDoom set I have played recently, especially from a gameplay perspective.

[Battle_Korbi]

Seems like yall really experienced in all of this, you know your shit, that is cool. But here is a perspective from a noobface, maybe this would make you think.

 

When I had first got into Doom again 2 years ago, I wanted to play a simplified but in the same time diverse shooter. Having flown in here through a quadracopter with a Lambda sign on it, I expected a plotless, simple shooter. I did not play Doom because of nostalgy, I did not want to "drop it like its 1993" and play it like vets used to. I wanted to experience bread and cheese, so to say, see and observe the true element of FPS shooters. True, I could have started with Wolfenstein 3D, but lets face it, wo3d is more of a arcade shooter than a "fight for survival" shooter Doom was. So, as to not bother with any ancient bugs or stigmas, I had set ZDoom to be my main squeeze, then moved on to GZDoom, and I am loving this so much, I keep multiple versions of it for different gameplay mods.

 

But Korbi prboom+ fixed the bugs plus gzdoom is not demo compactible etc etc etc

 

Yes yes, but the thing is, when I think of Doom, I think of math. I think of LEGO blocks. I think of blank canvases. I think of roleplaying. I do not think of competition. I do not think of other people playing this. I do not even think what the creator was thinking when having this here and that there (at least not on my first playthrough). I see Doom as a game, a experience. I think, "simple", not "good ole times". Compared to Source based games, Doom is lacking, yes. But that doesn't mean I feel like there are chunks of it missing, just, compared to your average tabletop wargame, Doom is chess. Basic.

 

Could have used Boom just sayin'

 

Oh well, yall know the difference between GZDoom and Boom by now would you? It would be pointless for me to repeat what had ZDoom enthusiasts had told already. Adding to the already known reasons (3d floors, slopes yada yada), I just feel like throwing Doom at the wall and see what sticks, then draw that down, make that shit again, threw it at the wall, rinse and repeat. Doom has basically provided all gameplay assets at my disposal, such as weaponry, bestiary, items, all the actors basically. You might not know it, but you guys are basically making games whenever you map. You are all a executable away from making a really fun shooter game.

 

Of course, these assets are not yours. They are not mine either. We cannot use them and sell them as our own. But, by making maps, we are learning design, tricks and tropes, stuff that can and would help us one day, should we decide to set off and make games of our own. Just create or borrow assets, find a good engine, and just copy your own map's idea onto it.

 

Could have used EDGE for da---

 

Uh uh. Nope. I like GZDoom mapping because its simple yet more open. Making limited maps in turn make me feel limited as well. It is like, all my ideas are seeping down the drain whenever I cannot make a control pinky do random shit by remote linedefs, whenever I cannot design a stylish house with multiple floors, whenever I cannot just try out what I had made immediately, see instantly what made whatever I threw at the wall fall off, instead of just guessing or asking. I never learn like that. I am a person who learns stuff the hard way. If my maps are going to automatically suck just because they aren't "demo-compactible" or some shit, be it. Lemme make my "auto-suck" maps first. Lemme learn that my ideas suck on my own. I don't care about what is new on the competitive mapping scene, I have not played any community-megawad yet, nor any Cacoward stuff, so my opinion must suck right? I am not going to stick to the Doom boat long enough, so why should I care about "dropping it like its 1993", I am probably going to make one vanilla map and that is all.

 

Either way I hope this helped something.

[Da Werecat]

The "auto-suck" attitude is exactly what we shouldn't do here, even if we pick a side.

[Linguica]

2 hours ago, 40oz said:

snide and sarcastic remarks and deconstruction of his arguments than an attempt to understand his position

I've seen you make this argument on several occasions. From what I have pieced together you are annoyed that people reply to specific statements made in a post to the exclusion of addressing the overall holistic point of the post.

 

The problem with this is that there is no way to know what a person's position is except from the things they actually write and the statements they actually make. The only possible way to respond to someone's arguments is to respond to the actual literal words they write. No one is a mind reader and you might have some great position in your own mind but if you can't articulate it well then it doesn't mean anything to anyone.

[Maes]

I tried to read this thread but my mind just shut down.

[Gez]

If people got on with the time, they wouldn't make GZDoom maps; they'd make Unity games. (With stolen Tekwar assets, obviously.)

 

There are good reason to make maps using the extended features offered by ports like GZDoom; but modernity isn't one.

[40oz]

4 minutes ago, Linguica said:

The problem with this is that there is no way to know what a person's position is except from the things they actually write and the statements they actually make.

 

There is a way. Its asking clarifying questions.

 

[Nine Inch Heels]

3 minutes ago, 40oz said:

There is a way. Its asking clarifying questions.

And you did that where in this thread here?