If you could rebalance Doom 2, what would you change?

[KVELLER]

1 minute ago, GarrettChan said:

In my opinion, I don't think SP games need to be balanced. For instance, people like to propose changes in order to make Pistol useful, but for me, it doesn't matter if there's a useless (mostly) weapon. Judging a SP game by whether it's balanced is somewhat similar to judging a SP game by the graphics, which I guess quite some people like to do.

What? The balancing can make a SP game be loved or hated. Think about the Nightmare skill, for example: how many people think it's bullshit, and they hate it for that? And why is that? Because the balancing is all over the place. How good a game looks, on the other hand, is objectively unimportant since it doesn't affect the gameplay (unless we're talking about The Sky May Be kind of graphics, of course).

[GarrettChan]

3 minutes ago, KVELLER said:

What? The balancing can make a SP game be loved or hated. Think about the Nightmare skill, for example: how many people think it's bullshit, and they hate it for that? And why is that? Because the balancing is all over the place. How good a game looks, on the other hand, is objectively unimportant since it doesn't affect the gameplay (unless we're talking about The Sky May Be kind of graphics, of course).

Well... I actually don't know. I thought NM was BS like, 10 years ago. 4 years ago, I thought the gap between UV and NM is too big, so it's not my skill level. Now I think NM is pretty fun... of course I need S/L and talking about original WADs like D2.

 

To be honest, this is somewhat similar to "having a useless weapon". In 1994, probably everyone would think NM being a useless difficulty because it's supposed to be a joke. However, it doesn't seem that awful to me now...

[MrGlide]

    Question was pretty open to allow the discussion go where it may. I'm not big on trying to inhibit conversations. Also, I'm not really asking a question, but starting a community discussion.

 

As for Multiplayer, I would ditch the pistol and make the starting weapon the Shotgun. Other than that, Mp feels pretty good to go for me.

 

    As for single player, I would love to see a Nightmare mode without respawning monsters, alongside the current nightmare mode. The lost souls could have an hp reduction, but it doesn't matter to me. One of the interesting things about the lost souls hp is it promotes rocket play against them, which makes for some very interesting play at times. I agree with everything Sausage said, minus the increased fire rate of the chaingun. The chaingun has so much utility in doom, buffing it that much seems a bit dangerous to me as it would quickly just replace the ssg, if the ssg was nerfed in one go.

 

Oh, and the BFG having it's own ammo sounds like a good idea to me as well. That or it costing more per shot.

[TwinBeast]

Maybe something like this...

 

* BFG use own ammo type, blast originate from the ball, 3-5 shots for cybers, 2-4 shots for spiders.

* Barons and cybers could lead their shots, maybe cyber doesn't lead every shot, just one of them.

* Add some alternate attack for pain elementals, soul limit per elemental?

* Firerate increase for player hitscan weapons

* Speed increases for some monsters, like demons

* Demons move during their attack, but then at half the normal speed

* 8 and 16 pellets for shotgun attacks

* Additive armor items, half the amount.. if different armor types, work like in Q2 and show armor type in hud

* More flying enemies and a flying boss...

[Lila Feuer]

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Echoing and expanding on what MrGlide said already, some people here aren't rebalancing the game, they're much rather completely revamping it in their own interest, which at times seems to end up as a means to compensate for their own shortcomings by way of nerfing enemies, or boosting their own firepower, and some of the suggestions here are nothing short of "mindbending" or "puzzling".

Just goes to show how some around here would make garbage game designers (no offense but Romero nailed the balance with Doom).

[Dynamo]

I'd do a few changes, most of them I've already applied to a small gameplay mod I always play with, I think they make the game a lot more fun.

 

- Zombieman: Uses pistol zombieman sprites instead. It is more accurate and aggressive, and is occasionally able to fire a burst or 2 or even 3 shots. Still weaker than the shotgun guy though.

- Chaingunguy : Uses the player's chaingun sound, I think it was an oversight from the spider mastermind code that it uses the shotgun sound. No changes otherwise.

- Demon : Slightly higher melee range.

- Lost Soul : Make them behave like the Doom 64 version, that is, faster, more aggressive but with less HP so they can be killed with a single shotgun blast.

- Baron of Hell : Uses sprites from the rebirth megawad. 925 HP instead of 1000, but can fire several baron balls in different directions at once, just like the lord of heresy (that's the base code I'm using). This way it's at least a threatening enemy instead of an useless bullet sponge.

- Revenant : Fires 2 smaller projectiles that deal half the damage of the standard large one instead. This way it actually deals the same amount of damage, but distributed better overall IMO. This makes them more threatening in numbers due to the higher number of projectiles, but in oldschool megawads and vanilla maps (which is what I mostly play) it's a very good change in my experience.

- Archvile : Can be attacked by other enemies.

- Spider Mastermind : Smaller hitbox so that it can traverse maps slightly better and isn't as much of a sitting duck.

 

Beyond these, I also like those mods which add custom pain/active sounds for all enemies so the pinky sounds are not reused all the time. Additionally, the one custom enemy I find myself using quite often is the rapid fire trooper as something of a middle ground zombie-tier enemy between the shotgun guy and the chaingun guy.

 

I don't think I'd change anything else...

Edited July 13, 2017 by Dynamo

[Hellbent]

On 7/9/2017 at 2:16 PM, Pegg said:

I mean we can already mod it but why not (Lots of changes):

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1) Reduce pain chance for all monsters from caco and up.

2) Pinkies move a bit forward when they bite.

3) Cacodemons shoot in a random angle (30 degrees max)

4) Revenants + 20 hp, projectile damage reworked to 2d4.

5) SuperShotGun takes 5 more frames to reload. 

6) Rocket Launcher direct damage - 30.

7) BFG cost doubled.

8) Blue armor reduced to block 30%. 

9) Monsters revived by arch-vile lose half their hp, Archvile heals by that amount. Edit : Monster gibs after they die again, Can't be revived.

10) Arach and Mancubi pain chance lowered to 4.

11) All weapons -33% max ammo, Backpack now gives the player their default ammo limit.

12) All monster actions take 1 less tic.

13) Rad Suit grants +20% damage reduction while it is on.

14) Light Googles tighten hitscan weapons pattern.

15) Spider Mastermind takes -70% damage from BFG, +2000 HP, Starts firing in half the time.

16) Player default hp changed to 125.

17) Baron Of Hell and Pinkies move speed set to 18.

18) All projectiles +3 speed. (Including RL, BFG and Plasma)

19) Chaingun zombie doesn't deal damage on the first second of firing unless the player is very close.

20) Zombieman hp +10. Lost Soul hp +20.

21) Pain Elemental flies up if the player gets close to them. 

22) Stims heal +10 hp over 20 seconds.

23) Berserk gives +2 speed until the end of the map.

24) Chaingun and Plasma rifle raise speed increased.

25) Super Shotgun and BFG lowering speed increased. 

26) Lost Souls immune to knockback while charging. 

 

I like your ideas; they're creative and a lot of them I can get behind. But not sure why you want to make zombieman tougher. If you make blue armor -30% instead of -50% then what do you do to green armor? 

[Cruduxy Pegg]

10 hours ago, Hellbent said:

I like your ideas; they're creative and a lot of them I can get behind. But not sure why you want to make zombieman tougher. If you make blue armor -30% instead of -50% then what do you do to green armor? 

Buffed the zombieman's and lost souls hp so they can distract monsters for longer. Neither of their increased hp has a huge impact on the player himself. Green Armor is unchanged. 

[rehelekretep]

On 13/07/2017 at 8:22 PM, cyan0s1s said:

Just goes to show how some around here would make garbage game designers (no offense but Romero nailed the balance with Doom).

for me im thinking more: why do they even play doom if they want it to change so much?!

[Dynamo]

1 minute ago, rehelekretep said:

for me im thinking more: why do they even play doom if they want it to change so much?!

Because that's what modding is about?

[rehelekretep]

emphasis on the 'so much'

[Dynamo]

Yes, ever since 1996 or so, people have been making total conversions which radically change the game to the point it is virtually indistinguishable. Emphasis on the "Because thats' what modding is about". If all you want to do is play vanilla maps there certainly is nothing wrong with that, but wondering why people may want to alter the game, even radically, is pretty hilarious if I'm honest.

[rehelekretep]

jesus christ chill your underpants it was a light-hearted comment, and we're talking about rebalancing doom, the original game and its mechanics, not making total conversions.

[Dynamo]

I mentioned total conversions because you mentioned how you do not understand why people would want to change the game so much. Anyway, if your comments are meant to be light hearted non-sequiturs, I guess we can thank you for explaining that so we can avoid answering seriously next time.

[rehelekretep]

wow you are a real honey bunny ◉_◉

[Nine Inch Heels]

There is but one way to rebalance Doom properly:

[Aldaraia]

Velvet Doom needs to be a thing.