If you could rebalance Doom 2, what would you change?

[Jayextee]

IMO Doom needs less monster projectile accuracy and not more.

[TootsyBowl]

5 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

So basically make it so players can mindlessly circle strafe all the things, except for archviles... Seems like a really bad idea from my point of view.

By "tracers", it means the gunfire is still hitscan but it generates cosmetic tracers like in modern games. No more "where the hell is that Chaingunner"

[TootsyBowl]

Whoops doublepost.

Edited July 13, 2017 by TootsyBowl

[shotfan]

- Reduce Lost Soul health to 70

- Lost Souls do not infight each other like dumbasses

- Give Pain Elemental a melee attack to prevent Lost Soul abortions

- Pinky bite damages at the start of the animation, not at its end

- Pinky and Revenant health levels equal at 200

- Less damage spread for the Revenant missiles, around 30-60

- A little increase of Revenant missiles turning radius

- Reduce pain chance of Cacodemon, around by half

- Place more Arachnotrons inside tunnels

- Reduce Arch-Vile health to 400, but make their attack hit you in the third of the current "charging" time
 

- Blursphere gives you full invisibility that is lifted for a second or so when you attack with any gun

- The duration of powerups is additive instead of resetive
 

- Give SG ten pellets per shot to make it more viable versus SSG's twenty

- SSG appears first at Dead Simple, nowhere earlier (even as a secret)

- Increase BFG ammo usage to 50

Edited July 12, 2017 by shotfan

[schwerpunk]

On 7/9/2017 at 3:29 PM, Linguica said:

* Remove the Baron entirely and replace it with, I dunno, Magic Baron that actually does something different and interesting (I always wanted to see a monster that randomly spawned gouts of flame around your position to act as area denial).

Hear hear. Although I like the idea of "door made of HP" for certain situations. I'd split the baron into two more specialised mobs:

1) Magic baron, like you said.

2) Slothy blob. Just a big sack of HP with short range melee attack and super, super slow movement speed. Like a pinkie, but much less mobile. Maybe give it an AOE attack.

[The Doommer]

Icon of Sin. I would turn it into the Real Icon of Sin made by Sergeant Mark IV.

All Right the boss was a nice idea but it gets boring after a few times.

[Maes]

Many of these "rebalancings" actually sound like they would be pretty annoying/actually make things worse:

 

e.g. the 1/3rd time Archvile attack, for which nerfing to 400 HP would hardly be a fair tradeoff. Unless their attack damage was also significantly nerfed, now it would be possible to make pretty cheap near insta-death traps using them.

Or the Lost Souls no longer infighting among themselves...great, now you have to kill them all yourself instead of letting them duke it out among themselves and thin their numbers. Doubtful if reducing their HP to 70 or even 50 would compensate for that.

 

But hey, who am I to judge...it would be funny if every contributor could make a DEH/DECORATE patch implementing as many of their ideas as possible (when possible ofc.) and see how they'd play out.

 

IMO, they'd make the game feel different, sure, but not necessarily more balanced overall. That's something very tricky to get right.

[shotfan]

I find Arch-Vile's attack slow and easy to avoid. I also think they are too durable for how fast and thin they are. So it is part balance, but also part immersion affair for me here.

 

Do you really rely on Lost Soul intraspecies infighting that much? I do not at all, and that quirk of them makes them the only enemy whose threat level decreases with their numbers (by proxy, this also make Pain Elementals less threatening). Lowering their health to 70 HP would make them explode from a single shotgun blast most of the time, which almost never happens now. With 100 HP, they are too irritating to me to take down for what they are - a small harassing enemy.

[GarrettChan]

2 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

So basically make it so players can mindlessly circle strafe all the things, except for archviles... Seems like a really bad idea from my point of view.

I found that usually people will complain about Revenant homing missiles... I would like to see a poll that monster you hate most, and Revenant is a winning candidate... If really ask me to do something, probably I'll lower them to 8D8 instead of 10D8 since with Green Armor, even you have 100% health, you can be killed by two unlucky rolls. Still, it's kind of funny to me the damage of Revenant is a reversed Hell Knight/Baron of Hell.

[SaladBadger]

There's honestly not a lot that instantly jumps to mind as a potential candidate for rebalancing. The few ideas I can think of, though, are fairly simple:

 

-Reduced lost soul health.

-Make demon just a little better at melee. As they are they seem to have little role in actually directly attacking, being more of a diversion (which actually does work out fairly well sometimes and is again one of the reason why I find it hard to want to actually rebalance them)

-Fix blockmap bug, and make player melee more reliable against large targets. (I've seen some say that they like the blockmap bug because it "makes the game harder" but if I wanted the game to be harder I'd rather it actually be harder rather than buggier)

-Do something about the baron of hell. Mappers have use for the current baron, but its such a dull monster. An imp with over 10 times the health. Blech. I think it would be cool to make the Baron a hulking monstrosity that charges down the player, unrelenting under player fire, moving reasonably quickly while constantly pelting them with slimeballs. Of course, its hard to imagine what id would actually do if they went back to rebalance the Baron, since most Doom II monsters even remain relatively straightforward. Of course, they did invent the Arch vile's unique behavior so them doing something fancy isn't entirely out of the question.

[Maes]

1 minute ago, shotfan said:

..that quirk of them makes them the only enemy whose threat level decreases with their numbers (by proxy, they also make Pain Elementals less threatening).

Exactly. Take that "quirk" away, and leave the health at 100 HP. Doesn't sound funny now, does it? What about 90 HP, more manageable? You also get more chances of a 1-hit shotty kill....what about 80 HP? It really depends on the situation, and it'd have to be tried out.

 

Also, the threat level of pretty much any enemy except Archviles decreases with numbers: even in horde/slaughter maps, just the first rank of monsters can really attack you. The other ones just shoot at their buddies' backs (when they don't start infighting because of that, that is). 500 Barons? Yawn, what a long grind. 500 Zombies? Well...they will kill each other pretty quickly, but those hitscans, ouch. But 500 Archviles, each within aiming range of you? OUCH ;-)

[shotfan]

I am opting for Lost Souls that both are weaker and do not ram themselves to death, but I concur that without an actual simulation it is difficult to arrive at tangible conclusions.

 

In the slaughtermap scenario, most of the enemies will become more dangerous as their numbers rise, until they have filled the occupied space so that you face this complete rank of monsters. Then the numbers influence pretty much plateau's (if we do not take varied monster types into account, because that factor makes hordes much weaker). The only exception here are Cacodemons. In my experience, Lost Souls will tend to converge as they target and chase you, bumping into each other frequently and then proceeding to infight.

Edited July 13, 2017 by shotfan

[Maes]

A variation would be to allow Lost Souls to retaliate only once against one of their kind, so that they don't caught in a headbutting game. In fact, the Lost Soul's peculiar "tit per tat" infighting strategy (only retaliating once) might have been part of a scheme to limit infighting, however it's completely lost because there's nothing preventing the "retaliee" from re-retaliating, starting a vicious cycle, and it certainly doesn't work with the player most of the time. It might just as well not be there.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Why nerf lost souls because pain elemental exists? Never hurts to have another threatening monsters. Polls about most hated monsters don't matter since there is a huge chance it'll be one of the most threatening mobs (Vile, PE, Rev or Chaingunner). 

[baja blast rd.]

Melee and projectile monsters are generally harmless when the player has a decent amount of space to move relative to them. E.g. two mancubi roaming freely in a 512x512 room. As you add more monsters, they can work together to threaten the player's space, via their presence and their attacks. In our scenario, four mancs is more than 2x as dangerous than two, and six more than 2x as dangerous as four.

 

In large-scale slaughtermaps, hundreds of such monsters might not be that much stronger than dozens in areas big enough that you have enough room to move in both cases, but when there are enough (either of monsters and/or blanket fire) relative to the space you have that you actually need to pay attention, that certainly stops being the case.  

 

Lost souls are definitely more dangerous when they are clustered messily in a room (where they also eat up space via infinite height) than when there are just a few. They have target amnesia and don't infight effectively anyway, but in either case, it's not too hard to avoid damage entirely when you just have to deal with a few lost souls.

 

 

[Lila Feuer]

Right, if anything should be changed in D2 I'll just say give the Pain Elemental a melee attack (bite) same as Caco and make its explosion death deal the power of a barrel explosion so it's a nice crowd cleanser in a tight spot while being risky to engage up close.

[Nevander]

The only thing I would change is to lower the HP of Lost Souls like in Doom 64.

[galileo31dos01]

2 hours ago, InsanityBringer said:

-Fix blockmap bug, and make player melee more reliable against large targets. (I've seen some say that they like the blockmap bug because it "makes the game harder" but if I wanted the game to be harder I'd rather it actually be harder rather than buggier)

 

Also, fix noclipping projectiles. Many many times I've hidden myself from a mancubus firing, only to see his fireballs going through the wall and hit me. And this is why I don't trust in walls anymore. 

[Unholypimp1n]

My list of changes

-Plasma rifle shots deal 7 damage instead of 5 and have +5 speed(I always thought the plasma rifle did crappy damage compared to the rocket launcher)

-Arachnotrons shoot slightly faster and have a tiny bit of spread to their shots and their shots move 30% faster

-Arachnotrons have their chargeup time before firing cut in half(I always thought they stand there for too long before they begin to attack you)

-All monster projectiles have +5 movement speed in addition to any buffs other monster projectiles have(who plays with a keyboard anymore? Projectiles are too slow for mouse users imo)

-Bfg has its own ammo type now and has a limit to 20 ammo 40 with the backpack.  The bfg would use 1 ammo per shot and its ammo would be more rare than cells Probably 1-2 ammo per level.

-Spider Mastermind has +1000 health and attacks 30% faster and is 40% more accurate at long range, in addition the Spider Mastermind has 10 less pain chance.

(I always thought the spider mastermind was weak compared to the cyberdemon and is harder to place in levels.  As such the mastermind should be stronger and have more accurate shots to make him more difficult to deal with at long range and short range.  People shouldnt be going toe to toe with the spidermastermind without a fear in the world.  

-cyberdemon's missile have a slight home to them so they are a little more deadly at long range.( their home should be half as effective as revenants but still be able to redirect towards you at longer ranges but not very effective at short range.  We all circle strafe cyberdemons for days now, having a homing missile will make him more effective against players in a open area.

-Chaingun has +1 pellet per shot and does +2 damage and its shooting sound should match the chaingunguy's.(I always thought the chaingun was super weak compared to all later guns and sounded weak too.  True the doom1 chaingun should stay the same but the doom2 chaingun needs to be buffed because you really only use it when your either out of ammo, trying to save ammo on better guns or need to snipe something.

-Pistol fires twice as fast(starting with the pistol shouldnt be a punishment until you find the shotgun or chainsaw, increasing its attack speed will make it more useful till you find the chaingun.)

-Baron of hell will now fire 2 smaller shots next to its main shot with a slight angle to them(the difference between the baron and a hellknight is their health and look,  REALLY??????????? What kind of bs is that?  The baron of hell always felt like a weak boss in doom1 and when they released the hellknight he just felt like a waste of bullets.)

[schwerpunk]

2 minutes ago, Unholypimp1n said:

-Spider Mastermind has +1000 health and attacks 30% faster and is 40% more accurate at long range, in addition the Spider Mastermind has 10 less pain chance.

(I always thought the spider mastermind was weak compared to the cyberdemon and is harder to place in levels.  As such the mastermind should be stronger and have more accurate shots to make him more difficult to deal with at long range and short range.  People shouldnt be going toe to toe with the spidermastermind without a fear in the world.  

Consider the source, haha. But honestly, I have never considered the SM easy, unless placed in an area that obviously undermines its strengths.

[silentzorah]

Chaingun damage up.

Chaingun and Pistol accuracy nerf on first shot (not 100%, but still tight spread).

Pain Elemental close range attack to prevent cheesing.

Archvile attack damage nerf.

Revenant movement speed down.

Mild vertical spread to hitscanners.

Tighter horizontal spread for Former Human.

Normal Pain Elemental death (current death would be its XDeath).

Increased firing speed for Cyberdemon, chance to refire after each volley.

Spider Mastermind HP up.

Shotgun pellets up to 10.

 

Just a few things I'd rebalance.  Actually, I pretty much already do this in my mods anyway.

[galileo31dos01]

2 hours ago, Unholypimp1n said:

-Spider Mastermind has +1000 health and attacks 30% faster and is 40% more accurate at long range, in addition the Spider Mastermind has 10 less pain chance.

(I always thought the spider mastermind was weak compared to the cyberdemon and is harder to place in levels.  As such the mastermind should be stronger and have more accurate shots to make him more difficult to deal with at long range and short range.  People shouldnt be going toe to toe with the spidermastermind without a fear in the world.

The Spider Mastermind and the Cyberdemon have different abilities and both are the strongest enemies in Doom, neither is weaker than the other if we are talking about power. Despite she has less HP, still with 3000 she is totally able to kill a Cyberdemon and survive with at least 1/3 health, if not more. This depends on various factors (close/distanced combat, pain chance, space, etc). 

The reason why people consider her hard to place in maps is because she is a hitscanner, and hitscanners are speedrun-unfriendly. Players who go by this gameplay style may find boring to slowly kill a big spider, as you are obligated to cover yourself to avoid pellets, if you don't have a BFG. There aren't too many options to place a SMM to be as threatening as fair at the same time.  

It would be better, as you said, that her attack was more accurate at long range and less pain chance, so the plasma rifle wouldn't stun her most of the time.   

[Nine Inch Heels]

19 minutes ago, galileo31dos01 said:

The reason why people consider her hard to place in maps is because she is a hitscanner, and hitscanners are speedrun-unfriendly.

The actual problem is the size of that thing. Hitscan or not does not matter as much, but placing the SMM is difficult since its size really is utterly ridiculous.

 

What makes it more difficult to use the SMM effectively is how prone it is to infighting. If you use that thing, you ideally want next to nothing between the player and the SMM, including monsters.

[Guest]

Introduce the SSG much later in the game.

 

Make the IoS mobile. 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Guest

[rouge_means_red]

8 hours ago, schwerpunk said:

2) Slothy blob. Just a big sack of HP with short range melee attack and super, super slow movement speed. Like a pinkie, but much less mobile. Maybe give it an AOE attack.

I like the idea of this. Basically creates a moving area of danger that the player has to dance around, like a moving pain sector if you will

[TootsyBowl]

How about a literal wall of flesh whose only purpose is to block doors? Completely immobile, has an eye that shoots lasers, ton of health.

[Nine Inch Heels]

6 minutes ago, TootsyBowl said:

How about a literal wall of flesh whose only purpose is to block doors? Completely immobile, has an eye that shoots lasers, ton of health.

That's called Baron of hell + block monster linedefs. ;-)

[TootsyBowl]

33 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

That's called Baron of hell + block monster linedefs. ;-)

No laser eyes though.

[Cupboard]

^^ an immobile baron of hell sounds exactly like The Flembrane from Chex Quest I

http://chexquest.wikia.com/wiki/Flemoids?file=BOSSB0.png

[geo]

I'd make Commander Keen more of a threat.