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Spectre01

What is your stance on cheese-proofing maps?

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Judging from your word salad posts, Battle_Kirby, the most coherent idea I can get from what you're saying is that you want people to stop and take a look around your maps. I'm sorry, but you can't force players to do what you want them to do - if they want to speed through your maps then that's their prerogative. You're not allowed to tell people how they should play. If your map is the super duper most awesome map of all time then it's their loss if they don't want to experience it. That's just how things go, sometimes! It's best not to dwell on it.

 

On the same topic, it looks like you're boiling down several different types of player into some abstract strawman player called "Speedrunner", when you're more often describing players who don't play the map in the "correct" way, or abuse engine quirks to beat the map and outsmart you, or mindlessly rush through things without taking the time to consider what they're doing or where they are. Again: you can't force people to play how you want them to play. One thing you can do though is plan your design around people who try to just shovel their way through your levels, and punish them for not using their brain. The original Castlevania did this, and is lauded as some of the most challenging and memorable gameplay design in video game history (even though it's a pain in the ass to play). It built its gameplay specifically around killing you if you aren't considerate of what's happening around you, and if you aren't studying the world you're in. It's almost impossible to shovel your way through, because you just die if you approach things in that way. Instead of complaining about the possibility of people playing your maps in such a mindless way, or considering miserable time-wasting things like lock-ins or whatever, change your approach to how you design things.

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5 minutes ago, an_mutt said:

*lot of stuff*

Same goes for you. You shouldn't force a mapper to do what you want to, unless you are paying them to do it or are just under your wing.

 

Like I said, my maps, my rules. No one should ever play my doom maps. Frankly, I will never be a good Doomer. So I am taking my sweet chances to outright kill the joy of speedruns or put up speed bumps. I cannot go around and tell people how should they map unless they ask, it is their own maps and own style.

 

I was talking about "those who shovel their way through" types of speedrunners.

 

I don't understand. In vanilla Doom and Doom 2 maps most maps can be completed really quickly, like, E1M1 is one mad dash away from completeing. Am I a skilled player who invested a lot of hours into playing E1M1 if I can finish it real quick? Did I beat the entire id software by doing so? Had I outsmarted them? No. Not even close. MAP01 can be finished in what takes to drink a small glass of water. Getting 100% is however, much more different.

 

Did you guys mean speedrunners who are also completionists? I think you did. Otherwise, you wouldn't really defend everyone who once dashed through a map when they were low on health but couldn't grab that medikit.

 

(also why does everyone care about my maps all of sudden?)

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13 minutes ago, Battle_Kirby said:

No one should ever play my doom maps. 

Then don't release them.

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1 hour ago, Battle_Kirby said:

I will never be a good Doomer. So I am taking my sweet chances to outright kill the joy of speedruns or put up speed bumps.

I'll translate:

"If I can't have it, then I won't let anybody else have it."

 

@Battle_Kirby, it's more than obvious by now that you don't know what doom speedrunning is like, and how much effort is put into categories like UXmax, UVspeed, pacifist and whatnot. I'm certainly not a speedrunner of great reknown, but I love me a good speedrun when I'm in the mood, and I don't need to hide myself either.

 

All the hostility you have for speedrunners is not only irrational, but also ridiculously misinformed, since one of the largest parts (if not the largest part) of speedruns on the DSDA is UVmaxes, meaning 100% kills + 100% secrets. This is what players like Anacalagon or J4rio do most of the time when they submit a new demo. Even if that wasn't the case, a highly optimized UVspeed or Pacifist is anything but easy.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that regardless of what you do, there will always be an optimal way in your map to either kill everything as fast as possible, or rush past things to exit the map as quickly as possible. And nothing, and I really mean nothing you do will ever change anything about this.

 

1 hour ago, Battle_Kirby said:

Otherwise, you wouldn't really defend everyone who once dashed through a map when they were low on health but couldn't grab that medikit.

Again you have no idea what you talk about. There's a huge difference between someone randomly lucking out, and an actual speedrunner who planned pretty much everything ahead of time by, believe it or not, looking at the map in detail and doing her/his homework.

 

1 hour ago, Battle_Kirby said:

(also why does everyone care about my maps all of sudden?)

Severe case of misinterpretation. Nobody here said they'd care about your maps, what people care about is how you drag some of the most dedicated and passionate players in this community through the dirt for no reason other than the previsouly mentioned "If I can't have it, then I won't let anybody else have it."

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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On the original subject, I'll avoid obvious cheese when possible. If you can straferun a gap, I'll widen it. 32 wide gaps in bars are right out, I don't think that should be too controversial since frankly a 32 wide gap is a gap the player can get through, though I guess it does require effort (especially if you're going for speed under pressure). I don't mind if someone finds a trick afterwards, though. Actually I find that pretty neat overall. I just don't like putting obvious ones in.

 

also, I don't get Battle Kirby's take on speedrunning. Hell, speedrunners probably spend the most time on maps (well ones they like at least) since they have to put a good amount of effort into getting the route right, and then executing it without error. I'm pretty sure even the best don't just pull a good uv max out of their ass.

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Well this thread deviated off point relatively quickly :)

Personally i like being somewhat cruel to the player, preferring to lock them in to fights if at all possible. I will even make low walls around encounters impassable to stop players rocket jumping out in gzdoom. This is only because i have seen some of my maps cheesed in a most depressing way before and would rather not see that happen again.

If ive spent hours of my time making an effort to make a hard fight which punishes player mistakes and ive missed something basic which drastically reduces the threat of any given situation i feel as though its a clear oversight on my part and needs to be fixed. Why even bother placing the monsters in the first place if they dont pose some sort of threat to the player? Thats my take on it anyway. Making maps based solely around the dislikes of speedrunners is a different point entirely imo :P

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8 hours ago, Battle_Kirby said:

Frankly, I do not care about any sort of cheese sandwich my map may become, but I have one deep, irrational hatred towards speedrunners. I know I am not supposed to feel angry and should be glad to have a speedrun of my map done by someone else, but it just makes me real fucking angry thinking how someone would blitz through my map in a minute without taking a moment to soak in the atmosphere and genuinely enjoy themselves for once in a while.

Just put the exit switch on a 10, 15, whatever minute timer. Then no one will want to speedrun your maps. Problem solved.

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I tend to alter anything that encourages me personnally to cheese encounters when I play test the map. So I often downgrade or remove Chaingunners if I find myself sniping from a doorway. I've occassionally made choke points awkward to navigate to encourage myself to move forward to get a cleaner shot. I've reduced cover in certain places to make safe spots less safe, and I'll often place rewards in spots that will leave the player in a more vulnerable position.

 

I don't get hung up over cheese generally. Whenever possible I prefer to grant the player the freedom to play how they want. Infact I'll deliberately leave some cheeses in, if they require a degree of tactical thinking or risk taking, since the player will get a sense of achievement if they think they've out smarted the encounter.

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16 minutes ago, InsanityBringer said:

On the original subject, I'll avoid obvious cheese when possible. If you can straferun a gap, I'll widen it. 32 wide gaps in bars are right out, I don't think that should be too controversial since frankly a 32 wide gap is a gap the player can get through, though I guess it does require effort (especially if you're going for speed under pressure). I don't mind if someone finds a trick afterwards, though. Actually I find that pretty neat overall. I just don't like putting obvious ones in.

Glides suck to do, so I get rid of those too.

 

5 minutes ago, Benjogami said:

Just put the exit switch on a 10, 15, whatever minute timer. Then no one will want to speedrun your maps. Problem solved.

Throw a hundred barons in a 64-wide corridor in there somewhere, just because. Also Battle_Kirby has won this argument because he has duped people into reading his posts. 

 

Edited by rdwpa

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I like to speedrun and be a completionist on my own time, and I like a nice sequence break every now and then. When it comes to completing things, I do take my time on a map only to come up with an effective way of beating a map. That's how it goes for me. When it comes to preventing cheesing maps, I really don't care unless they break the level in a way they cannot exit, so there.

 

I liked @Battle_Kirby posts a lot. Great job rustling them. I disagree with your opinion of course, but you were strong with it.

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As a player, I like to be given the freedom and choice of how to solve a problem.

 

Also, can we stop talking about cheese? :P

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Most of the time I think its better to implicitly discourage cheese than to explicitly restrict it. Being too restrictive in how a player is allowed to tackle a given situation makes maps seem rigid and makes them pretty boring to replay or retry. On the other hand if you only ENCOURAGE the exact type of play that you want from the player, they can experiment with more efficient/effective strategies that may cross the line into cheese but are nonetheless satisfying for them to discover.

 

Of course there are exceptions if the cheese is REALLY lame or reliant on some dumb glitch or something.

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3 hours ago, Battle_Kirby said:

my maps, my rules

Interesting you say this.  

  

3 hours ago, Battle_Kirby said:

I cannot go around and tell people how should they map unless they ask, it is their own maps and own style.

And yet you're frustrated people want to play how they'll play?  

  

3 hours ago, Battle_Kirby said:

I was talking about "those who shovel their way through" types of speedrunners.

Unless you're willing to name some names and link to some DSDA pages you're doing nothing more than making accusations at ghosts and in the process grasping at straws to defend your ignorance.

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I find a lot of maps overdo the "anti-cheese" and become a bit of a slog as a result; sometimes even if it's just placing monsters for the sake of placing monsters.

 

Sometimes I just slap godmode and a bunch of cheats on because I've lost intrest/attention span and want to enjoy the rest of what the mapper worked on, just because I've grown annoyed; or lack of skill (mine has deteriorated over the years, the cheats didn't help matters)

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There's a particular "cheese" (but srsly, why the name anyways) I loved to exploit back then.

Place a Cyberdemon only for it to be either slowcrushed or telefragged. Such a cheap victory saving you a lot of possible suffering - unless you're keen on fiery fights until death, that is.

As I matured, I've grown to actually despise the method by any means, for a good reason. Perhaps because I started to see ingame aspects from the point of view of a legitimate player.

[EDIT] @loveless

Spoiler

What specifically is meant by that is that I, by about 98% of frequency, just IDDQD-cheesed myself through each and every mapset, level and game Doom-related I've ever touched between, like, '04 and '13.

You never get perception by any means if you're blind for the subject, that is.

 

Edited by Cell

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"cheese-proofing" does not enter into my mapping process.  I make the level how I want to.  The player plays it how they want to.

 

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14 minutes ago, Cell said:

Perhaps because I started to see ingame aspects from the point of view of a legitimate player.

What specifically is meant by this?

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Most maps are unbearable garbage that has conformed too much to antiquated design that does nothing more than irritate the player, making them want to just get the damn thing over with.

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8 hours ago, Battle_Kirby said:

Like I said, my maps, my rules. No one should ever play my doom maps. Frankly, I will never be a good Doomer. So I am taking my sweet chances to outright kill the joy of speedruns or put up speed bumps. I cannot go around and tell people how should they map unless they ask, it is their own maps and own style.

I suck at playing therefore everyone should suck at playing too, Yay Happy World. 

Also Speedrunners are also very skilled. Its just that they have a different skill set than non speedrunners, infact i would say they have reached "Skill Nirvana" and mere mortals such as yourself can't understand it.

 

Your superb ignorance in speedrunning gave me a Mentaly induced coma.

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Much anger I sense in some,  that someone else might be better at your own map, and discover tactics that you,  as the mapper, haven't thought of.

Edited by Pirx : Damn phone

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57 minutes ago, Pirx said:

Much anger I sense in some,  that someone else might be better at your own map, and discover tactics that you,  as the mapper, haven't thought of.

 

And yet the idea brings me joy that one day I may make a map that someone played so darn much that they can break the ever-living shit out of it and beat in an unfeasible time. Not that I map in a way that generally facilitates that, but I can dream... ;)

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Just now, Jayextee said:

 

And yet the idea brings me joy that one day I may make a map that someone played so darn much that they can break the ever-living shit out of it and beat in an unfeasible time. Not that I map in a way that generally facilitates that, but I can dream... ;)

 

Indeed!

 

imagine if yonatan donner threw a tantrum because later players finished his hell revealed faster than he himself had imagined  ;)

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I normally don't want certain encounters to be easily cheesed, especially the ones that are more setpiece oriented, though on other hand I don't want the player to feel forced to deal with the monsters, so I normally take the player out of his confort zone (using one-way passages) and add some difficult to the exit (a door or lift which is activated by a switch somewhere) so he feels encouraged to fight the monsters on the setpieces, or challenged to get in the safe zone.


Not everyone like this approuch, though, which is fine lol

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While I've been mapping for hocusdoom I've discovered 'alternate paths' that make playing much faster--however if its a way that breaks the map further down the line or is very obvious is when I'll fix it. Otherwise I'll leave it in. Hell, there's a jump skip in map02 that lets you complete the map without needing both keys requiring sr50 off of a wall decoration. Its not super obvious, but its useful.

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My current style is to make short, punishing levels that are designed to be maxed. I don't think about speedrunning or anything outside of what I envision. I don't care if people play my maps or not. I don't release one unless I'm proud of it. My maps won't appeal to everyone, and I'm completely fine with that. I've gotten to the point where I have received enough positive feedback to make me confident in my abilities.

 

I have the most fun when I am challenged so I try to make maps that do this for me.

 

In short, it depends on how far the strat deviates from my original idea. I'll try to make things skip proof, but it seems like there's always a way.

 

Addendum: Also can the vultures stop circling @Battle_Kirby because at this point it is pretty low hanging fruit. Why can't he do what he wants and you do what you're going to do?

Edited by everennui

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There's always a way to break the maps unless it's speed proof. And it depends exclusively of the mapper. End of story...

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Oh, is "cheesing" really an established term? I always thought cheesing was this  
It's all part of the deal to let the player finish the map in whatever way he wants to. If skillful speedrunners find creative shortcuts that's just cool. The most impressive record I've seen from somebody playing a map of mine is probably this. Sometimes it is in fact wonderful when a quick bastard invests all his time, effort an thought to skip the hole map an do it on nightmare mode, and his comment is just: "safety play..." 

Edited by Martin

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