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TootsyBowl

Is there anything in Doom you find truly archaic?

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Infinite height and the blockmap bug. I don't miss those when going from GLBoom+ to GZDoom.

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I don't miss the automap's red/yellow/grey only colours when using Crispy or PrBoom+, and I surely don't miss no-stats. Seeing how many monsters/items/secrets are in a map right at the start is much better for me.  

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9 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Elastic collisions, anybody? ;-)

I always forget about these, yet they're hilarious.  Maybe turn them into a powerdown like Elasto Mode in ROTT?

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4 minutes ago, YukiRaven said:

I always forget about these, yet they're hilarious. 

They're fun if they don't happen to you while you're in a hurry... When I did some of my Valiant runs, I couldn't help but notice that these elastic collisions happen a lot more in -complevel 11 (MBF) than in -complevel 9 (boom) for example, but maybe that was just my mind playing tricks on me. Some of those were utterly infuriating, because deadly...

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I once was in a tight space with a cacodemon and elastically collided with it repeatedly about five times, all in the span of a couple seconds. I wish I was recording a demo.

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2 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

I once was in a tight space with a cacodemon and elastically collided with it repeatedly about five times, all in the span of a couple seconds. I wish I was recording a demo.

Flubber-demon confirmed ;-)

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2 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

So the "secret ingredient" you were looking for is making players move more slowly, so you can get away with cheaper enemy/encounter design.

Just to clear things up: Serious Sam has no shortage of situations where you have to avoid or shoot homing missiles, or plan your movement around enemies that lead their shots.

 

1 hour ago, InsanityBringer said:

y-shearing is something that definitely strikes me as "archaic", a limitation of the relatively simple renderer used. There's no reason for anything really to have it any more.

Other than sprites looking like shit when you look too far up or down.

 

1 hour ago, InsanityBringer said:

I will never understand why games of the era decided to have a "walk" mode, and then a "move at 2x speed for no mechanical cost" mode, and then stick the fast mode on a key press.

With the default keyboard layout, pressing an additional key is a mechanical cost.

 

Besides, I imagine "making eights around cyberdemons" was a less common playing style than "slowly crawling around corridors while being afraid of bumping into another monster" at the time.

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That blockmap thing in Vanilla, when you can't damage large monsters with fists/chainsaw. Not sure if it's a bug or not, but it's not in ZDoom.

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1 hour ago, Da Werecat said:

Other than sprites looking like shit when you look too far up or down.

at the expense of looking up and down looking like shit. You have to sacrifice something. Frankly I'd prefer the world not distort like crazy and have paper thin monsters than having the world distort like crazy with the fact that the sprites being 2D being obfuscasted.

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4 hours ago, Phade102 said:

Have you tried playing with the vanillia mouse controls? They were no different than wolfenstein 3ds, and dear god that was a nightmare.

Strange, I've never had any trouble with it. The mouse control feels practically the same as any source port since you're basically able to fine tune the sensitivity, it just lacks freelook. I guess you mean the default controls, but the settings are so easy to change so I don't see that as an issue.

 

The only things that bother me about pure vanilla Doom are infinite height actors, forced weapon switch and the blood screen being way too opaque. I like freelook but it doesn't bother me at all when it's turned off so I wouldn't really count that.

 

Quote

at the expense of looking up and down looking like shit. You have to sacrifice something. Frankly I'd prefer the world not distort like crazy and have paper thin monsters than having the world distort like crazy with the fact that the sprites being 2D being obfuscasted.

I think the game looks so much better when you turn X/Y billboarding on for the sprites in OpenGL mode. It basically makes the game act like software mode in regards to the sprites - They keep facing you rather than turning into flat pieces of paper, just like in software mode, but with the added benefit of the environment itself not distorting. I simply can't handle the paper thin sprites so this feels like the best of both worlds.

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1 hour ago, cherry said:

That blockmap thing in Vanilla, when you can't damage large monsters with fists/chainsaw. Not sure if it's a bug or not, but it's not in ZDoom.

It usually has nothing to do with blockmap. The melee hitboxes, if you want to call them that, are relatively small on mancubi and Arachnotrons. This means that in order to connect with the chainsaw/fist, you will have to position yourself at one of the cardial directions of the thing in question, to get "close enough".

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38 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I think the game looks so much better when you turn X/Y billboarding on for the sprites in OpenGL mode. It basically makes the game act like software mode in regards to the sprites - They keep facing you rather than turning into flat pieces of paper, just like in software mode, but with the added benefit of the environment itself not distorting.

It still looks bad when you look up/down on someone, albeit for a different reason. It order to fix this, you'd have to add more sprite sets for looking at things from above and below, and then it'd be easier to just go with models.

 

There isn't a perfect solution for a sprite game.

 

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Why is everyone talking about and criticizing "vanilla controls" when vanilla always came with setup.exe starting from the first release ever? Always-run mode never was officially supported though and that certainly sucked once you started learning how to really play this game. Some people also hated (and still hate) how you can't disable moving forward/backward from mouse but at least I learned to use it somewhat effectively. Nowadays I mostly play with novert though.

 

If we go into the other games using Doom's engine which added looking up/down I'd say having no freelook out of the box sucks.

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2 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

The melee hitboxes, if you want to call them that, are relatively small on mancubi and Arachnotrons. This means that in order to connect with the chainsaw/fist, you will have to position yourself at one of the cardial directions of the thing in question, to get "close enough".

Not entirely correct. When viewed from top-down perspective, the "melee hitbox" is not some smaller square inside the normal hitbox square. It actually consists of 2 lines, the diagonals of the normal hitbox. Melee and hitscan attacks are checked against these 2 lines only - including a distance check. This becomes important with melee attacks due to their limited range and the fact that physical collisions between solid objects are checked against their actual square hitboxes, limiting how close they can get to each other's center. If you aim exactly towards the center of a large monster's hitbox, both lines will be too far to reach and hit even if you stand in an ideal position. But if you aim towards a corner of the hitbox, which you can also approach much more closely than the center, the line in this corner will be possible to reach and hit.

Edited by scifista42

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8 hours ago, YukiRaven said:

If I'm looking at straight Vanilla Doom (and its commercial engine variants), I'd say:

  • First thing I'd do is add a "--help" command line argument
  • Remove the pistol and make the shotgun default instead
  • Real mouselook, not that y-shearing crap
  • Remove the software renderer, and replace it with a nice OpenGL one
  • Remove infinitely tall actors (Heretic/Hexen fixed this at least)
  • Make some of the random damage amounts more predictable, at least for the player's weapons
  • Make capslock act as "always run"

Over half of these are what Quake did.

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1 minute ago, YukiRaven said:

Which is probably why I love Quake so much :-P

Yeah, I love Quake for some of the same reasons.

 

Plus whenever I get my friends to play it I absolutely destroy them to the point where they gang up on me and I destroy them even more. Maybe that's why I love Quake so much.

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Random damage rolls is something I wouldn't miss either. Much rather have Revenant rockets always hit for 45 rather than the silly 10-80 where they either tickle or chunk your health. Plus the added consistency of, say 5 rockets always killing a Baron, 3 for a Manc and 2 for a Caco.

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2 hours ago, xttl said:

Why is everyone talking about and criticizing "vanilla controls" when vanilla always came with setup.exe starting from the first release ever?

1) The question in the OP is "what's archaic?", which the default vanilla controls are. The fact that there are multitudes of ways to change them is irrelevant to the discussion.

2) You can't effectively achieve a modern WASD+Mouse scheme in the original setup.exe anyway precisely because of the vertical mouse movement -- I'd lump autorun as part of that package too.

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Hey, MIDIs do have a certain charm to them.

Edited by TootsyBowl : Of course I get a like from music horse.

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8 hours ago, Da Werecat said:

It still looks bad when you look up/down on someone, albeit for a different reason. It order to fix this, you'd have to add more sprite sets for looking at things from above and below, and then it'd be easier to just go with models.

 

There isn't a perfect solution for a sprite game.

 

Yeah I still prefer it to the paper flat sprites though. It looks just as weird as it does in software mode just without distorting the world itself so it's at least a step in the right direction.

 

I also have to echo what xttl said, the default controls are archaic but since it takes all of 15 seconds to set them to whatever you want and it's always been that way, it never bothered me since I switched over to WSDA+mouse many years ago. The vertical movement is kind of annoying but it's by no means a deal breaker for me.

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vanilla exe :p

 

 

Serious answer: the MUS format. If they had been SMF from the start it would have been so much better.

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