Looking for material to "Get good"

[Raheem]

Can somebody point me in the direction of any material (videos or reading) that will help a beginner understand the fundamentals and branch out into competitive play.  

[Decay]

Competition is dead, all that's left is some casual public play experience. In either case, the answer to your question is "just play" instead of reading/watching. You'll pick up tricks as you go along. Download and try all 3 main multiplayer source ports (each one will feel different) and get in the servers.

[Memfis]

This document is impressively detailed, I feel like it taught me some things: http://www.doom2.net/dev/DooMStrategy.pdf

[Ru5tK1ng]

I hope you enjoy dueling because that's all you're going to get. You missed the lifespan of big competitive CTF and the last bastion of that is on ZDaemon in the form of whatever they are calling their CTF league now. Even though that scene is a vast shadow of it's former self, it's all that's going on right now with CTF.

 

Dueling is the same across all ports because everyone plays nearly the same settings and core maps. You best enjoy learning how to play Judas_23, King1, dwango5 map01, SSL2, POBLA8, dweller if you play Canadians, and map01 if you play a dinosaur who is an expert on the map. Where the difference comes in is how much each netcode will screw you over (get used to shots not killing) and which mouse allows you to consistently aim correctly (and doesn't feel like shit). Sitting in a server to play on Zandronum usually won't take long to get people in so you can play. The duel scene in ZDaemon is probably smaller but you can still get a few games in if you don't mind waiting. Odamex doesn't have a scene and you usually have to ask if anyone wants to play on IRC or whatever.

 

Best advice is to just play another game if you want to play competitively. Try Overwatch or Quake Champions or CS:Go, they have a player count higher than all 3 MP Doom ports combined.

[Combinebobnt]

Read memfis's linked document and you can still idle in duel servers and players will eventually come. Hop in any dm or ctf you can find. You will learn how to be good after getting beat 100's of times (active learning only!)

[UglyStru]

1 hour ago, Ru5tK1ng said:

I hope you enjoy dueling because that's all you're going to get. You missed the lifespan of big competitive CTF and the last bastion of that is on ZDaemon in the form of whatever they are calling their CTF league now. Even though that scene is a vast shadow of it's former self, it's all that's going on right now with CTF.

 

Dueling is the same across all ports because everyone plays nearly the same settings and core maps. You best enjoy learning how to play Judas_23, King1, dwango5 map01, SSL2, POBLA8, dweller if you play Canadians, and map01 if you play a dinosaur who is an expert on the map. Where the difference comes in is how much each netcode will screw you over (get used to shots not killing) and which mouse allows you to consistently aim correctly (and doesn't feel like shit). Sitting in a server to play on Zandronum usually won't take long to get people in so you can play. The duel scene in ZDaemon is probably smaller but you can still get a few games in if you don't mind waiting. Odamex doesn't have a scene and you usually have to ask if anyone wants to play on IRC or whatever.

 

Best advice is to just play another game if you want to play competitively. Try Overwatch or Quake Champions or CS:Go, they have a player count higher than all 3 MP Doom ports combined.

Is FNF no longer a thing?

[40oz]

Unlike most shooters, being a good shot has very little to do with being good at pvp. It has much more to do with moving unpredictably and playing defensively to withold the opposition from scoring frags on you.

[Ru5tK1ng]

12 minutes ago, stru said:

Is FNF no longer a thing?

It is a thing still but it's always been a casual event. It's not a tournament or anything else that falls under the 'get good' category. For the past several years competitive Doom was always confined to Duel and CTF.

[Doomkid]

I wouldn't call it competitive, but there's still a fun DM and duel scene. Like others have said, just find people to play against, sometimes you'll need to ask on IRC but you'll pretty much always find a couple of people keen for a match between the various IRC channels.

 

The BFG is a big part of DM, so watching this will probably help you hold your own when up against players in a BFG heavy map:

 

I often play on weekends, would be happy to have some frags!

 

edit: Also, suggesting that someone looking to get good at Doom go play Overwatch instead is absurd, rofl. You only need 4 people for a fun FFA and 2 for a duel so it really means nothing that more people play Overwatch (also that's plainly obvious to literally everyone since it's a significantly newer game)

Edited July 24, 2017 by Doomkid

[Decay]

1 hour ago, 40oz said:

Unlike most shooters, being a good shot has very little to do with being good at pvp. It has much more to do with moving unpredictably and playing defensively to withold the opposition from scoring frags on you.

 Being able to aim well will win you most matches...... especially in maps that favour SG spawns. Pobla8 is a good example, if you can't land those SG shots against someone with the upperhand/SSG, you will lose every time. Or D5M7, if you can aim well and lock down the spawns, you win. The best CTF defenders are turrets, and don't necessarily need a brain.

 

Understanding how to move and use the map will help you, but being able to aim is what will win you games. If you can do both, you're golden.

[Zakken]

A few pieces of basic advice to get you started:

 

1. Practise SR50'ing and incorporate it into your play until it becomes second nature;

2. Don't just hold Mouse1, make each shot count. Using the SSG as an example, don't shoot until your target is lined up in front of you and their distance is short enough to kill, depending on how much HP you think they have;

3. Never stop moving around, even when in combat. Moving sideways in relation to your opponent's POV can be quite effective;

4. Control key areas that have important items such as a BFG or a blue armour;

5. Try to maintain a good grasp of where every player is, be it ally or enemy;

6. Watch how top players perform and learn from them! Watching demos and dissecting their actions and decisions can go a long way to improve your own play;

7. Joining a clan is one of the quickest ways to get you started in Doom competition, regardless of port. Make yourself involved in the community by joining any one clan that's recruiting!

 

Good luck!

[40oz]

I certainly wasn't saying that having shitty aim will get you by. The subtext in my two-sentence protip was to say that most shooters put a lot of emphasis on having good reflexes and a steady hand. Get the first shot in and aim for the head is the way to win! But in Doom, especially in the context of having a supershotgun, rocket launcher or plasma gun, a moderately sized hitbox and no locational damage, having precision aiming is secondary to utilizing your speed as your best advantage.

[dew]

1 hour ago, 40oz said:

I certainly wasn't saying that having shitty aim will get you by. The subtext in my two-sentence protip was to say that most shooters put a lot of emphasis on having good reflexes and a steady hand. Get the first shot in and aim for the head is the way to win! But in Doom, especially in the context of having a supershotgun, rocket launcher or plasma gun, a moderately sized hitbox and no locational damage, having precision aiming is secondary to utilizing your speed as your best advantage.

No. You obviously haven't ever played a SSG-bot like Mortalogy or Caboose in your life. While strategy and positioning will carry you a mile, the last few steps will have to be made by lighting quick reflexes.

[Cupboard]

if there are particular maps you want to get good at, watch some demo .lmp or youtube videos, or spectate other people play the maps you like. Having an enormous amount of map knowledge helps you win the war. Sometimes you need to have a PLAN for every spawnpoint and sometimes multiple PLANS. If you spend a lot of time running around not knowing what to do, your opponent is going to know exactly where you are and wipe the floor with you

 

There needs to be a lot of raw talent on your side as well, so that means a lot of practice with the SSG. And fighting against the monsters is no substitute for legitimate practice.

[Decay]

2 hours ago, 40oz said:

I certainly wasn't saying that having shitty aim will get you by. The subtext in my two-sentence protip was to say that most shooters put a lot of emphasis on having good reflexes and a steady hand. Get the first shot in and aim for the head is the way to win! But in Doom, especially in the context of having a supershotgun, rocket launcher or plasma gun, a moderately sized hitbox and no locational damage, having precision aiming is secondary to utilizing your speed as your best advantage.

Sorry, but I disagree. This is the advice of someone who doesn't frequently play DM/CTF/Duel, or at the very least certainly needs better opponents. This is kind of like, theoretical advice. "Doom's speed is easier to take advantage of than the reflexes of an opponent." While in theory (if you haven't played DM/CTF/Duel), this sounds plausible, but in actual practice, it falls apart fast. Maybe you should start joining the games advertised on the statuses of Doomworlders (or start your own) and play more PVP before giving advice on how to play PVP.

[Doomkid]

I'm loving all this strat talk, thread ended up getting a lot of good replies and advice. Competitive leagues and whatnot may be inert at the moment but raw duel/DM will always be fun (and teaches PvE doomers a fuckload about the game in just a few rounds generally as well). Good thread.

[jdagenet]

2 hours ago, 40oz said:

I certainly wasn't saying that having shitty aim will get you by. The subtext in my two-sentence protip was to say that most shooters put a lot of emphasis on having good reflexes and a steady hand. Get the first shot in and aim for the head is the way to win! But in Doom, especially in the context of having a supershotgun, rocket launcher or plasma gun, a moderately sized hitbox and no locational damage, having precision aiming is secondary to utilizing your speed as your best advantage.

Give me the chaingun and I'll show you how wrong you are rofl

[40oz]

ok I'm sorry I tried to help ._.

[Ru5tK1ng]

To echo what dew said, players like Ammar and edd will outaim you and out react you. Strategy will take you so far but you still will need to match their fire power unless you plan on running away all game. Even then, all it takes is a few bad spawns and you're down by 5 frags and that spread grows as the game progresses. DemonSphere is another player who can match your strategic strength and bring good aim along; almost the total package that's why he won money in that Doom QCON tournament. Aim is important and can make you turn from scrub to mid tier. From that point on, strategy takes you to the next level.

[Ralphis]

I want to chime in and say that I think the above approaches, when there are two "same tier" players, can have different outcomes on different maps. A player who is a monster on judas and d5m7, thanks to their aim and quick reflexes, might not do as well on a map like d5m1, map01, or pobla8 where another player can slow them down and control the flow of the game instead of letting it turn into a spawn frag festival. Nowadays they typically do, but even the sharpest "skill" players have been upset once they are forced to play at a slower pace.

[Koros]

My advice for "getting good" would basically be a combination of what was already mentioned above.

 

- Knowing Map layouts (Armor, BGF, Health packs and of course the SSG.)

 

- Having consistent "good" aim (That's all on you buddy, no amount of videos or strat talks will teach you how to aim better. You either have it or you don't.)

 

- Defensive / Offensive strafing. ( Knowing how to move and confuse is a pretty decent key strat.)

 

- Patience (Players will often repeat things in a match. Things like movement or locations your opponent favors. Learning those IN GAME and knowing how to counter or deal with the situation is something that will help you play more offensively and may force your opponent to change strats.) 

[Doomkid]

4 hours ago, 40oz said:

ok I'm sorry I tried to help ._.

These guys are just trying to set the record straight, I don't think anyone's trying to put you down personally or anything - The observation that movement is far more essential to Doom than most FPS games is definitely on point, it's just that aim is also a crucial factor to playing well and shouldn't be neglected if someone's looking to improve their skills all around.

[40oz]

Right, but in the context of helping a beginner (stated in the OP) its strange to me how dissenting people are being towards optimizing your footing. I think you guys may have it so deeply rooted in your skill set already that it seems inane to talk about.

 

Its not a skill thats developed in most other multiplayer shooters such as Halo or counterstrike. These games give the player a fixed speed and limited mobility compared to faster games like Quake 3 or Unreal. If you watch videos of competitive matches in the latter games, a commonality between all of them is that the players are using their speed to keep their distance, weave in and out of cover, staying out of the opponents field of view as often as possible, then pounce when the opponent moves where the other wants him to be.

 

Doom is fast, the weapons are most effective at close range, players have a narrow field of view and they can't see through walls. Having an awareness of how exposed you are is like walking before running.

 

This is by no means a suggestion that a subtraction in attention to precision shooting will do anything to benefit anyone. But to dismiss the significance of your movement patterns is weird. Doing anything to focus on rushing the opponent to get that perfect SSG blast like you might do in Doom single player is predictable and makes you an easily stopped target. Dooms ability to allow the player to snap in and out of a defensive and offensive position lightning fast is a skill that is not trained in most other shooters.

 

I find it hard to believe the suggestion of that would effect a beginner negatively.

Edited July 25, 2017 by 40oz

[Memfis]

I realized that I suck at deathmatch when in a judas23 duel some pro decided to make fun of me, stopped shooting and just started running around me without doing anything. It took forever to land a SSG shot. So when I read guides a feel a bit sad. They say stuff like "this position is highly advantageous: if the enemy enters the room they will be in your plain sight and you'll be able to immediately kill them". But all that tactical knowledge is pointless because most likely I'm simply going to miss.

[dew]

10 minutes ago, 40oz said:

I find it hard to believe that any of you would disagree with that.

Because we don't necessarily disagree with that.

 

13 hours ago, 40oz said:

having precision aiming is secondary to utilizing your speed as your best advantage.

We disagree with that. Your two posts don't tell the same story and yes, seasoned duellists instinctively recognize the difference.

 

Lightning fast trigger finger can carry you a long way and combined with precision aiming you can bully even opponents of higher skill and grace. As for "predictability", you're overestimating the complexity of these "movement patterns". While fast and unpredictable movement is a great asset during the cat & mouse segments of play, SSG-heavy maps (aka "most of them") will inevitably feature episodes of vicious SSG jousting. No amount of defensive and offensive snapping will save you when repeatedly spawned in front of a SSG monster going back and forth along with the click-clack rhythm. And you absolutely must be prepared to repay the spawn rape in turn, otherwise you're losing an extremely important source of frags. At that moment aim is your only god.

 

When you mention strategy, predictability and movement, you fail to mention the most critical aspect in Doom duelling: timing. When players spot each other, they enter a collision course, even if one tries hit-n-run or what-have-you trickery. If you're the aggressive beast player, you're trying to get within an effective distance to attempt a one-shot kill, if you're the defensive guy, you're trying to maybe put a corner between you and then waiting for the exact moment the opponent peeks around. In most of these situations, timing is key and the meta headgames revolve around making your opponent flinch or whiff. When that happens, yes, you run like hell to get up close and... not whiff.

 

Actually, movement becomes critical in a very different set of duel situations: "racing" for something. It's, say, escaping from a spawnrape lock when in a mid-distance disadvantageous position. Chasing for a weapon grab/block. Reaching cover before the opponent's BFG projectile impacts. Movement is vital exactly when there's nothing intellectual to fart about and you must quickly perform an obvious, firmly established maneuver or die.

[40oz]

Are you not understanding that Im not giving advice to you? I'm giving advice to a beginner. I'm not disagreeing with anything youre saying, I'm just painting with broad strokes because what you're describing involves a very intimate knowledge of the game that might be lost on most people. If experience has taught you that you've managed your movement to its maximum capacity and the only thing that could be trained any further is cleaner shooting and reflexes, fine. But this isn't likely the case for someone who wants to get into multiplayer for the first time.

[Tristan]

43 minutes ago, Memfis said:

So when I read guides a feel a bit sad. They say stuff like "this position is highly advantageous: if the enemy enters the room they will be in your plain sight and you'll be able to immediately kill them". But all that tactical knowledge is pointless because most likely I'm simply going to miss.

A few months ago I started (but didn't get too far) writing guide-like overviews for 32in24 map articles on the doom wiki (example). My actual knowledge of deathmatch mapping is quite minimal so I deliberately tried to write these from a neutral perspective so that any player that bothers to read them would hopefully be able to work out for themselves if they would find advantageous positions or strategies or whatever. Maybe this would be the way to go with these sorts of things?

[dew]

3 minutes ago, 40oz said:

I'm just painting with broad strokes

Wow, aren't you the Bob Ross of Doom duels. I haven't described anything beyond mere basics, two or three rounds of 1on1 will give you all the intimate knowledge of the game necessary to understand those principles. Instead of waxing poetic about utilizing speed and fostering unpredictability, newbies need actual, useful advice. They won't be outsmarting the enemy in headgames for every separate frag, they'll be holding for dear life under heavy fire while pressing the respawn key a lot. Also as Ralphis mentioned, overarching strategies can be vastly different depending on a map, so useful general advice comes in the form of small pieces of wisdom, not... philosophy. For example:

• Hide behind obstacles when reloading the SSG, being in the open while unable to retaliate is an unnecessary risk.
• Don't blindly chase after players who hid around a corner, they might just be luring you in.
• When getting mauled on spawns, try delaying your next respawn to throw off their timing or make them think you spawned elsewhere. Nnnnnnever type anything during the wait!
• When trying to quickly grab a weapon near to your prepared enemy, try to stop in front of it for a split second, the opponent often aims at the item and times your movement, they might misfire.
• Also you don't need to run across a weapon to collect it, just touching the edge is enough and makes leading your movement harder.
• Chaingun is to be used over long distance for sniping or, if you cannot avoid it, at extremely short distance while dancing around your opponent chaotically. At mid distance: run away, the other guy is likely charging at you with the SSG in its best range.
• Plasma is only good at very short distance as a spray&pray weapon. The projectiles are easy to sidestep otherwise.
• Rockets are only good for spamming/blocking routes, so aim them at walls where you expect the other player to go. Also spam them at spawns to get chained frags. It's dirty and effective. Wait with respawning when someone else is doing that.
• Most importantly: Be ready to lose a lot. Focus on getting a higher frag count next time. Wins only come with grind.

[40oz]

ok ill post better next time, I guess...?

 

edit:

I reread my posts and I can see how they miscommunicated what I meant. I never meant to disparage anyone else's advice. I hope it didn't appear that way. I still think it was weird how quickly it was shot down rather than clarified or expanded on. It makes this particular subforum a very uncomfortable place to talk in.

Edited July 25, 2017 by 40oz

[dew]

• Competition means you're trying to best your opponent, so wear  your thickest skin and be prepared for some trashtalk and bragging.