Hitscan enemies were a mistake

[hardcore_gamer]

One of the few things I hold against Doom's gameplay are hitscan enemies. What makes Doom such an amazing game and so much more fun than modern shooters is the fact that most enemies fire projectiles rather than bullets and as a result it's possible to avoid taking damage without having to spend most of your time behind cover. Hitscan enemies like chaingunners however force you to use a more modern playstyle where you pop in and out of covers to take shots at them. One of the biggest reasons I like Doom way more than Duke Nukem 3D was largely because the later has much roughter hitscan enemies and shots are much harder to dodge in general.

 

Do you agree that Doom/Doom 2 would have been better if zombies shoot projectiles instead of being hitscan?

[Voros]

If you can stunlock them, you won't have to peep out of cover.

But the hitscan enemies are plain cannon fodder (Archviles a different case), and well balanced.

[Deadwing]

Hitscanners is what makes Doom's gameplay so dynamic, IMO.

[leodoom85]

Fortunately, zombies has a high pain chance so, it's fairly balanced to me imo. Imagine the mid-tier or high-tier (excluding the mastermind, of course) having hitscan attacks....now that would be unfair...

[BreakinAnt]

Like Voros just said, you can stunlock them with certain weapons, so it's not that big of a deal. My biggest problem with Doom 2 though it's how it focus too much on combat.

[leodoom85]

2 minutes ago, BreakinAnt said:

Like Voros just said, you can stunlock them with certain weapons, so it's not that big of a deal. My biggest problem with Doom 2 though it's how it focus too much on combat.

well, Doom is all about strategies involving priorities like killing the monsters that have hitscan attacks or infighting or killing specific monsters like the pain elementals or the archvile...

[Nine Inch Heels]

23 minutes ago, hardcore_gamer said:

Do you agree that Doom/Doom 2 would have been better if zombies shoot projectiles instead of being hitscan?

I disagree because they add to the variety of the game by way of making target prioritization a necessity.

 

Hitscans used well are an important aspect for gameplay. Overused hitscans are annoying.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

They serve the same purpose as archviles and revenants, That is killing unprepared players. Without them there is even less threats to the players. Build engine hitscanners tend to be way more overpowered than the ones in Doom (Especially in Shadow warrior and Blood), If a game managed to make hitscanners less obnoxious it is Doom. (Chaingunners and shotgunners aren't that rage inducing in doom 1 and 2)

 

Fast projectiles are shit that doesn't solve hiding behind walls (Why would you kill a slower playstyle anyway?) and all they'll do is encourage running in the open like a headless chicken even more.

[hardcore_gamer]

I still think it would be more fair if zombies fired projectile bullets instead of hitscan bullets. If the speed was made very high they would still be very hard to avoid at close and medium range but not impossible at longer ranges. It would make chaingunner abuse in some maps so much less terrible.

[CzechMate29200]

Chaingunners, yes I agree

 

the others, no

[Voros]

It would make chaingunner abuse in some maps so much less terrible.

Or worse if you think about.

[axdoomer]

30 minutes ago, hardcore_gamer said:

Do you agree that Doom/Doom 2 would have been better if zombies shoot projectiles instead of being hitscan?

In real life, bullets are projectiles, but they travel so fast. I can't imagine Doom being realistic if the hitscans were bullet projectiles.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Arachnotrons are pretty much projectile chaingunners, they don't do shit unless their attack rate is extreme. Even when people make them fire an arc of projectiles they are still less threatening than revs. 

 

Edit : The real op thing about chaingunners is how little time they give you before proceeding to fire, if the chaingunner is anywhere but in front of you when he wakes up he'll fire at least a bullet by the time you can turn to him. Then again it is the same time as a shotgunner but shotgunners have a way weaker attack.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Pegg

[leodoom85]

1 minute ago, axdoomer said:

In real life, bullets are projectiles, but they travel so fast. I can't imagine Doom being realistic if the hitscans were bullet projectiles.

see Brutal Doom :P

[galileo31dos01]

No I don't think it would have been better, they add variety to the game, plus most of them are easy to off. I think the only way hitscanners could annoy me would be when they are used in every single corner when there are also other important enemies to care about. It feels tedious when you need to concentrate on tons of projectiles coming from everywhere and these gunners are the ones constantly chewing your health wherever you go. Nevertheless, I like them, they also give you some extra ammo upon death.

 

Recently, I've read that archviles are considered hitscanners too, and since they add a singularity that none of the rest of the monsters do, getting rid of them would be like taking off the sauce from a pizza... and don't even make me start to talk about Queen Masterminds.

[[McD] James]

Hitscanners never bothered me at all.

[leodoom85]

5 minutes ago, galileo31dos01 said:

I've read that archviles are considered hitscanners too, and since they add a singularity that none of the rest of the monsters do, getting rid of them would be like taking off the sauce from a pizza

archies are good monsters for you because they can help you in the most unexpected way...

[Spectre01]

Hitscanners are a great enemy type because of their low-health + high-threat nature. They create priority targets for the player in a group of enemies and prevent the player from simply strolling around larger areas and dodging projectiles for days. It's why Archviles, which are also a hitscanner of a different type, are such a staple enemy in slaughter fights. Obviously if projectile enemies were more difficult to dodge, like in Doom 4, it could work without hitscanners. But with the current state of the bestiary they're a core component of the armies of hell.

[galileo31dos01]

3 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

archies are good monsters for you because they can help you in the most unexpected way...

Archie brothers against a Cyber is priceless. 

 

[Remilia Scarlet]

Hitscanners are one reason why I abandoned making a level for Heretic and went back to Doom.

[leodoom85]

Just now, YukiRaven said:

Hitscanners are one reason why I abandoned making a level for Heretic and went back to Doom.

wait...you're right. There's no monster with hitscan attacks in Heretic, same for Hexen.

[Erick]

I only have issues with them where there's an abundance of say Chaingunners in an open area and from a distance (and with little ammo). Other than that their high pain chance encourages you go out and kill them quickly while dodging demon projectiles, so they do keep the gameplay dynamic in those scenarios.

[scifista42]

I disagree with the OP. Instant undodgeable ranged attacks work great to encourage tactical use of map geometry and even enemies as cover to hide behind in the right ways at the right times, which is one of the valuable skills that allows players to be proficient at the game.

 

Forced pop-and-shot playstyle is not a necessary consequence if the map is done right, such as when the player is attacked by various types of enemies and there are a few spots in the area where he can briefly hide after luring monsters out, but the monsters would very quickly get back there from multiple directions and force him out of there.

 

If every ranged attack was projectile based, the abovementioned tactical aspect would be weakened and it'd be harder to design fights that couldn't be won by trivial methods such as circle strafing or random chaotic dance out in the middle of any open area.

 

Finally, enemies with instant ranged attacks, just like any other enemies, need to be properly used with respect to their characteristics such as health, damage, or duration of visible attack preparation animation, in order to be efficient and/or non-annoying - it's not a fault of instant ranged attacks themselves that some setups that involve them are not fun to play, it's a fault of the specific setups or maybe the fact that the game lacked enemies with characteristics that would have suited those setups better (which is my opinion about Duke3D).

[GarrettChan]

31 minutes ago, YukiRaven said:

Hitscanners are one reason why I abandoned making a level for Heretic and went back to Doom.

To be honest, this is variety. These are the necessary components for an interesting decision making throughout the game.

 

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Well, Chaingun vs Plasma Rifle guy's here. That's why he thinks Chaingun is useless because he also thinks Hitscanners shouldn't appear in Doom.

[leodoom85]

1 minute ago, GarrettChan said:

Well, Chaingun vs Plasma Rifle guy's here. That's why he thinks Chaingun is useless because he also thinks Hitscanners shouldn't appear in Doom.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[GarrettChan]

6 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But at least I can read you guys' opinions, which is worth it, quite a lot. ;P

[leodoom85]

Just now, GarrettChan said:

But at least I can read you guys' opinions, which is worth it ;P

Indeed...

[Xaser]

Didn't we just have this thread? Except with a real title instead of dickbait.

[Marcaek]

Hitscanners are a critical part of the bestiary in that they create (moving)zones where you can't hang around which limits your dodging room, this is a fundamental aspect of Doom's gameplay and I'm still somehow unsurprised that certain hardcore players don't understand it.

[esselfortium]

The options for creating interesting gameplay scenarios would have been a lot more limited without hitscanners. Spectre01 and Marcaek hit the nail perfectly on the head.

 

1 hour ago, hardcore_gamer said:

It would make chaingunner abuse in some maps so much less terrible.

Do you actually think this would improve the quality of the game or do you just want people to nerf their maps for you?