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Alfonzo

The DWIronman League dies to: Unholy Realms

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Played to end of map11.

 

 


This should have been the first Ironman on a wad I hadn't played before since I started doing them (third in total after KSS/LoH). However, as luck would have it, I saw something on /vr/ that made me wonder "is that Unholy Realms", so I downloaded it to check (it wasn't), and then just started playing it. This was c. 6 hours before the thread went up.

 

Preparation: before today's recording I had played the first 13 maps a couple of times each from pistol starts to learn them and prepare for the exam. (seriously, the rule is you get one recording attempt to get as far as possible. Those of you playing blind - why? It's like going to your college finals having done no revision. I suggest separating the contest into blind and previewed runs. You have to trust people's word, but you are already doing so, by allowing entries in *.lmp form.) Doing this I discovered a bunch of apparently intentional tricks/shortcuts which I decided to attempt during the final, with mixed success. Mostly glides, I've been looking out for glides a lot lately, I seem to have got the hang of them at last, well, more or less. I didn't watch any demos this time, leading to my missing a couple of really obvious shortcuts, notably on map07. On the other hand I am pleased with ghost monster avoidance on map06 and the linedef skips on map08.

 
Result: I survived Death, then stopped before map12 loaded. It was nearly 90 minutes and also map12 is immune to ultra-safety-play techniques. De-armed, you are immediately surrounded and forced to charge out recklessly into a field of hitscanners to even have a chance.

 

  1. Straightforward but a little too much pistol use, until you get a berserk, then it's okay.
  2. Obvious straferun to blue key. Best you can finish this map with is 100 health / 100 green and a chaingun, so I saw no reason to go round the rest of the map.
  3. Glide past bars to exit means you only need one key, so I got the blue one as it also gives rockets and blue armour. Although I could not make the glide work at first, so I fiddled around trying to use a teleporter to reset my angle (unsurprisingly useless), and eventually resorted to fiddling mouse sensitivity.
  4. Sadly no shortcuts here, and a lot of running away and hiding. Took damage off the blue key hellknights even though I knew it was coming. Nevertheless the blue armour from previous map lasted, so was able to save this map's armour for the next one.
  5. Here you can avoid being trapped in a cage with a teleporting horde by waiting for the 30 second door to reopen before pressing the button. In contrast to many tricks in this wad I suspect this is not intentional. Got careless afterwards though, and lost a lot of my armour outside the blue door.
  6. I was being cautious here: kill all the snipers especially the hellknight, lure revenants to corners, and in particular, take the yellow key very carefully, to avoid ghosts. Sadly was not able to escape unscathed from the augmented spider (which reacts quicker, moves faster, and is more pain-resistant).
  7. Annoyed to have missed the switch press from below - given the secret megasphere there is no benefit to going round the long way. Also annoyed because I still can't dodge mancubus fire (cf. the red key room). Also also annoyed not to think to use plasma on the exit arachnotron which cost half of said megasphere.
  8. There is a small shortcut here to get the red key by pillar-hopping from the berserk box, but it's not really worth it. On the other hand, bypassing the exit bars with strafe50 was unexpected and hilariously joyful. Unfortunately forgot the plasma gun secret - hope I can do without the 40 cells later.
  9. I lower the lift into the pool and grab the red key before the lift returns. Later I release the archvile/revenants guarding the yellow key without activating the rest of the teleporter. Said archvile still blows me up.
  10. This one has a rather easy glide to skip the blue and yellow keys. Thus I exit with 200/200, which is desirable for rocket dodging failures at the end of map11. (You can also grab the blue key by throwing yourself at the window, but it doesn't open the bars, so there's no point.)
  11. Which weapon to choose? I think the plasma wins slightly for the cyberdemon battle. Here though, I have both already. Even better, the glide past the yellow bars bypasses the entire level. The boss died too easily - I was sort of hoping it'd kill me so I could finally put this ridiculous DNF streak to rest but - aren't you supposed to warp around more than that?
 

 

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Sorry for not sharing your opinion but I completely disagree with what you said about blind runs. Obviously a few of us chaps like to go in blind to see what we can do in a tough WAD we're playing for the first time. Sure, we won't get as far as rehearsers, but we went in not knowing what we could expect at all and even surviving the first map could be an exceptional achievement (Nilla and Khorus' Shit being prime examples). I don't think there should be a separate table for people who only do a run a bit differently and don't practice the run for hours.

 

Seeing as I did an HMP testrun well I shouldn't be saying this but I didn't practice the maps, I just ran through to catch a glimpse of the layout, not knowing how monstrous the traps will be on UV. 

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@DoomLover234 Fair enough, it wouldn't be the first time I've suggested something that sounded good in my head but turns out to be the exact opposite of public opinion. It came from feeling guilty because preparation makes my rank a lot better than it deserves to be. I'd even accept a points reduction to take into account doing better due to foreknowledge, but it has to come from outside. I can't just play blind myself because trying to "wing it" is completely against my nature. I'm one of those people who can't do anything without sufficient planning/preparation. Call it a personality flaw if you like. But I tried it for Insertion, and even though I could vaguely remember the maps from 10+ years ago, I knew it was a mistake as soon as I started.

 

For what it is worth, I hope in the end @Alfonzo ranks you above me, since you actually went into map12, and cleared half of it.

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8 hours ago, RjY said:

I suggest separating the contest into blind and previewed runs.

What I'll likely do next year is simply note in both the spreadsheet and the OP which runs have had prep work done on them i.e. "did you seek to (re)gain knowledge of the set after it was announced but before declaring a genuine run?" This is more clear-cut than asking after blind runs, since the waters are far more murky, there. A player may be familiar with some of the set, exactly, or be only vaguely familiar with its entirety having last played it some 4 or 5 years ago, such that his expectation mirrors roughly that of a blind player's. Splitting the difference at preparation makes it easier to place runs in context, and you can simply glance at the asterisks or w/e graphic that's used to denote them to quickly rearrange the leader board.

 

Also... could this finally be the month that sees no one survive the challenge? I'll update the OP soon. Waiting on DotW with bated breath! 

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Shit, now I feel like a cad.

 

Made it to map 26. I didn't die, per se, I just plain ran out of time and had to go do Responsible Adult (TM) stuff instead. I started getting phonecalls somewhere in the middle of m22 and then started more or less Ancalagon-ing not long afterwards, but kept narrowly avoiding death. Eventually I had to man up and opt out lest I have to explain to a client that I was late because I was busy fighting demons from Hell other than the bank loan agents. Sorry for the anticlimax!

 

Still, if I'd have remembered which map 26 was, I'd probably have thought up some excuse and played one more at least, I remember really liking that one. Supposing I'd had no time limit, though, I think I'd probably have died on m28, which I remember being a real dick of a map. 27 should've been no problem, and 29 is dangerous too but doesn't scare me as much, since half the battle with Joshymaps of that vintage is simply not getting intimidated (that and I think carryovers would've seriously capped its threat). But man, that damn bridge trap in 28. I've only played this once before and I still remember that one.

 

On that note, before this I had only played UR once before, when the DWMC picked it way back when it was new-(ish). Some things I remembered (roughly how to get to the secret exit, etc.), others not so much. Don't know any of the skips I've heard so much about, really. Almost wish I did, would've saved me some time and maybe let me get a little farther.

 

Hats off to Krypto, as usual (and all of my other fellow ladder-spoilers). An immutable truth of the cosmos is that sooner or later, everything dies. Best you can do is try to troll the reaper for long enough to guarantee you'll posthumously pass into legend, something which you've certainly already done several times over.

Edited by Demon of the Well

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I was going to say, to complete UR it takes a considerable amount of time out of one's day, and as we drew closer to the end of the month I was suspecting that this was gonna be your biggest hurdle. The challenge of the Ironman Run can take many forms, I suppose.

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7 hours ago, Alfonzo said:

What I'll likely do next year is simply note in both the spreadsheet and the OP which runs have had prep work done on them i.e. "did you seek to (re)gain knowledge of the set after it was announced but before declaring a genuine run?"

All right that sounds very reasonable. Thank you.

 

6 hours ago, Demon of the Well said:

I just plain ran out of time and had to go do Responsible Adult (TM) stuff instead.

A shame! Could you not have just menu-paused the game to suspend recording for as long as needed?

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DotW, I'm really surprised you're so scared by UR28; the bridge trap is easily cheesable if you know it's coming, and nothing else is all that dangerous if you've played before and have pre-knowledge.  Greed (map 25 IIRC; that greenish semi-austerity map), Trechary (the Joshymap), and map 30 are all far more dangerous IMO.

 

EDIT: Are we on the path to having the first no-clear month ever?

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9 hours ago, Alfonzo said:

Splitting the difference at preparation makes it easier to place runs in context, and you can simply glance at the asterisks or w/e graphic that's used to denote them to quickly rearrange the leader board.

 

Just throwing an idea for the time when those changes happen: Allow two entries each month; with & without preparation.

I like going in blind but if a second attempt with previous preparation and knowledge of the maps was allowed I'd take the chance.

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@guineu I don't think it would be Ironman if you were allowed more than one attempt. I think that's the whole point. You'd have to call it something else. Is there a superhero who can be defeated once, but next time is prepared for you?

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@RjY True, I shouldn't have worded it as "two attempts"; it would be more like 2 different categories with the option to make 1 attempt at each category, or just focus on one category depending on personal preference.

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1 hour ago, guineu said:

@RjY True, I shouldn't have worded it as "two attempts"; it would be more like 2 different categories with the option to make 1 attempt at each category, or just focus on one category depending on personal preference.

Splitting the leaderboard seems kinda... pointless to me? Like, if we're going to get down to the nitty-gritty of this "two categories" idea, what exactly makes a player fall into one or the other? I played Memento Mori 2 like 8 years ago, so would I fall into the "prepared run" category since I have a vague notion of it? What if I caught another player's run on a Doom stream? Or what if I only played half the set? Or what if I looked at what made each of these player's die, but only the last 10 seconds of their run? Or what if I only played the map that kills the most players?

 

The more we'd want to segregate the runs, the messier it'll probably get. We're already going by the honor system without knowing if participants have frantically played the mapset dozens of times and only submitted their best run, so if we separate the categories what stops a pre-knowledge player from just steamrolling the set and claiming it was their first time? I think it's okay to have an asterisk to denote whether the player has "experience" with the mapset if we want a way to look at how pre-knowledge compares against no-knowledge, but it's unnecessary to separate the two categories. IMO if you really want different "leagues", just allow people to choose whether they want to run skill 4 or skill 3. That way the big boys can play on UV and us weaklings can duke it out for the lightweight belt.

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It's fine as it is. I don't care if someone prepared a run or not, i play cause it's a fun challenge every month.

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Yeah I just wanna reiterate that I like it as it is and don't mind the leaderboards being dominated by the usual suspects. I think such a thing is gonna happen no matter what way we try to split it.

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I too like things the way things are, and Alfonzo's solution to blind runners vs. practiced runners is a good one.

 

I've been wanting to join for awhile, so people could amuse themselves by watching quality deaths performed by The Ancient Doomer and Geriatric Keyboarder. I also wanted to see if I could make it past cannonball and Jimmy, charter members of the "Dead on Map02 Club." ;D Props to cannonball for reaching Map06 this month.

 

FWIW, I did make a practice run using GZDoom, and reached the exit trap on Map03 before I did the wrong thing and paid the ultimate price. I wish I'd have done it in PrBoom instead, though given the difference in Pinky-punching mechanics, I might never have escaped Map01 in that port.

 

The time is coming when I'll join up, but I'll probably be a practice-running type, though I'll only do one demo. Expect hilarity.

 

 

Edited by Steve D

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Competition is fun, but doing a blind Ironman (with exception of Map01 sometimes) is really satisfying to me for some reason.  Also, because I have little expectations catching up to the skill of higher-tiered doomers anyways, I've instead been playing towards a personal goal: Get above 50% of max points (basically get into the upper half percentile range; Percentage of max points is like a percentile but corrects for people who don't show up every month)

 

w.r.t tagging runs idea: it doesn't really bother me one way or another.  In the worst case it will trade psychological gripes of a couple players now for new psychological gripes in a couple of other players later.  

 

I like the simplicity of things right now.  Creating separate leagues based on skill is only a good idea if the player-base is large enough.  Creating separate runs for Try 1 and Try 2 is an interesting idea, but seems like a lot of unnecessary complicated rules bloating though, and some people might not want to play the same thing twice in a row, and etc.  Also, I'd rather just get a new run for a completely different mapset at that rate.  The VaeVictus month was pretty neat in this regard.

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I'm bottom half of the board every time whether I know the maps or not (and most of the time, I don't). The exception was Nilla Doom and I did a lot of prep for that one and to be honest that sucked all the fun out of it. Also I'm barely playing Doom lately, I don't think I've touched it since this month's Ironman actually, other than when I played The Given but there's no monsters there to practice on so pfff, I'm probably getting rustier by the day*

 

Basically I'm condemned to the lower end of the leaderboard for all eternity whatever happens, so IMO +1 for leaving the system as it is.

 

* This is where Coffee Break gets picked so I fuck up even there :D

 

Also regards to the board being dominated by the same people as dobu said, I've said before and I'll say again that I think that opens up more room for these little rivalries like the BritBowl, which I think makes this whole thing more interesting. Of course it's cool when curveballs are thrown in at the top too, just like Krypto dying this month :)

 

 

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I thought the spirit of Ironman here is fear of loss.  Where does distinguishing attempts with lots of preparation fit into that?  Don't recall having an even playing field was an intention.

 

  One mapset a month leaves plenty of time to scout out where the tricky spots and vital supplies are, plan an optimal route, and make unrecorded practice attempts.  So theoretically, players could prepare enough so that the playing field would be even.  Some of us, for our own reasons, choose to go with less prep than others.  I do believe advance knowledge is an advantage in getting a better result.  I favor leaving it up to the player to decide if they want to seek it.

 

  I think the setup now is fine and would advocate not making formal distinctions based on advance knowledge and preparation.  "No one wins the comparison game." is the phrase that comes to mind.  We all have the same opportunity to prepare (on paper anyways, some have busier real lives) so why draw attention to who does or doesn't learn the maps beforehand?  I'd like to keep things about fun and entertainment.

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16 hours ago, Cynical said:

 

DotW, I'm really surprised you're so scared by UR28; the bridge trap is easily cheesable if you know it's coming, and nothing else is all that dangerous if you've played before and have pre-knowledge.  Greed (map 25 IIRC; that greenish semi-austerity map), Trechary (the Joshymap), and map 30 are all far more dangerous IMO.

Well, that's the thing. My memory for Doom topography is better than average, I suppose (nowhere near Krypto's though!), but it's not good enough to the point where I'll necessarily remember all of the fine-grain tactical details about something 30 maps deep into a set I only played one time, what....? 4 years ago now? Confidence comes from familiarity (and indeed, I think the main factor determining Ironman performance, from the top to the bottom of the board, is mainly knowledge, though not always necessarily of specific map layouts), but in its absence it's the more animal impressions we tend to remember, and I distinctly remember getting my shit wrecked by the damned False Man's Bridge back then, whereas I remember scooting through m29 (for example) with little trouble. Highly cheesable m28 may well be, but in order for me to cheese it effectively I'd likely need that kind of detailed recall, and since my brain was going on autopilot for the last few maps anyway (preoccupation with other matters, some minor fatigue), there's no guarantee I wouldn't have simply screwed the pooch trying to be Clever (TM).

 

@RjY, you mean bring up the menu and then tab out of the game indefinitely? I guess I could've done that, but as I see it, in my situation that would've been somewhat contrary to the spirit of the competition. I wasn't going to just be gone for 20 minutes or something like that, my Doom time for the next 24 hours was pretty much officially spent, and coming back mid-run after that span of time skews the game and this sort of 'honor system' thing we've got going on, I think, especially in the context of a 32-map set where the endurance/fatigue dynamic is an especially big part of the challenge.

 

Incidentally, I also think the current/mostly informal system is for the best. I think of this more as a community-building event than an E-sport sort of thing, and I reckon that distinction's pretty important to consider whenever one is dealing with hashing out rules and regulations and bylaws and whatnot.

Edited by Demon of the Well

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11 hours ago, Steve D said:

I've been wanting to join for awhile

FWIW, I regret not having started much, much earlier.

 

1 hour ago, Demon of the Well said:

you mean bring up the menu and then tab out of the game indefinitely?

Yes. I'm led to believe PrBoom+ can be left in that state even overnight, with no ill effect. Wasn't sure if you were aware of the possibility. It seems instead you are, but prefer not to make use of it, which is quite understandable.

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13 hours ago, Demon of the Well said:

Well, that's the thing. My memory for Doom topography is better than average, I suppose (nowhere near Krypto's though!), but it's not good enough to the point where I'll necessarily remember all of the fine-grain tactical details about something 30 maps deep into a set I only played one time, what....? 4 years ago now? Confidence comes from familiarity (and indeed, I think the main factor determining Ironman performance, from the top to the bottom of the board, is mainly knowledge, though not always necessarily of specific map layouts), but in its absence it's the more animal impressions we tend to remember, and I distinctly remember getting my shit wrecked by the damned False Man's Bridge back then, whereas I remember scooting through m29 (for example) with little trouble. Highly cheesable m28 may well be, but in order for me to cheese it effectively I'd likely need that kind of detailed recall, and since my brain was going on autopilot for the last few maps anyway (preoccupation with other matters, some minor fatigue), there's no guarantee I wouldn't have simply screwed the pooch trying to be Clever (TM).

Damn, I didn't realize UR was that old.

 

I've always thought of you has having incredible Doom memory (I've seen you recall minor details of decades-old wads), and it's something I remembered from the map (although I've played through that wad a bit more than you have, I guess), so I figured it would stick in your memory for certain.

 

Out of curiosity, did you read the full text-file?  That might have something to do with it -- I knew about the bridge trap before I even played the map for the first time because of that file, and the text file mentions its cheesability (not the exacts of how to do it, but that it could be cheesed), so as soon as I got to the bridge, before walking onto it, I was already looking around to figure out how the trap was going to work and what weaknesses there might be, and it turned out that I guessed exactly right as to how the trap was going to work and how to easily defuse the whole thing.  I have a much better memory for text than I do for spatial information, so that may be why I remember that bit so clearly.

 

(I doubt you'd have messed up by being clever -- all there is to defusing it is to barely cross the trip-wire and then scoot back through the door before the bars finish lowering).

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After several VERY near misses, died in the start room of MAP06. Kind of glad, because I left doing this to the very last minute this month and I only had another 20 minutes or so left of free time.

ur_stewboy.zip

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On 25/08/2017 at 1:21 PM, bzzrak said:

Nice to finally see BK in the land of us mortals. We still love you. :]

 

On 29/08/2017 at 7:30 AM, Demon of the Well said:

Hats off to Krypto, as usual (and all of my other fellow ladder-spoilers). An immutable truth of the cosmos is that sooner or later, everything dies. Best you can do is try to troll the reaper for long enough to guarantee you'll posthumously pass into legend, something which you've certainly already done several times over.

 

Thanks for the kind words fellas (:

 

On 29/08/2017 at 9:24 PM, Eris Falling said:

Of course it's cool when curveballs are thrown in at the top too, just like Krypto dying this month :)

 

Looks like I'll still get to be top of the dead ;)

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That was... fast. I died on map 04, but, in my defence, I've been away from my computer, and any kind of games, for a whole month. Also, I've never played this WAD before, so it was a 100% blind run. So there it is, totally not my fault and I don't suck at Doom at all. Totally.

 

TBH, I expected some serious ammo starvation after reading some of the posts, but I didn't really feel it. Also, I probably would have done some preparation, but, just like last month, I barely had enough time to do the run itself, let alone any scouting and whatnot.

rth-ur.zip

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My run is a done deal.

 

Spoiler

I died on map 11. I've basically not played Doom at all this month, except for TNT: Revilution, and to test my own maps I'm still working on. It shows! I take a lot of damage from poor dodging. I don't think there was really anything I could do about that Cyber death though, as it just kinda ports behind me and stuffs a rocket up my ass before I had any idea of where they had 'ported to. Oh well. 5-3 in the Britbowl. Suck it, John!

 

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