WadAuthor and Deepsea

[Cadman]

I know it's been talked about numerous times and I'm not looking to start some new arguments or flaming wars which I have seen on numerous other threads. So , I'll give it try.

*I'm a longtime Deepsea user and have enjoyed the editor for some time and I felt it was time to look at WA myself to see what all the commotion has been about. I've been messing around with WA for a few days to give it an honest go and I must say it has a very straight forward interface. Very easy to use and it doesn't clutter up the screen. It does what I require with a few differences from Deepsea. I do wish that the updates were more in coming with WA. I looked for the homepage for it and found the last update was 3/08/01. He said it was back from the grave and I believe him but it's been about a year and half since any update. I would like to register it for the $20 to be fair to him. Has anyone heard anything else from him? I would like to have two good editors in my arsenal.

*The reason I use Deepsea is the support I get. This editor is constantly being updated and the bugs are being squished on a continuous basis. Everything is built right into Deepsea. I never have to leave the editor, whether it's new graphics, new music or just about anything else. No complaints.

Please let me know if anyone else has registered WA and has gotten any further news from the author. Thanks everyone!


Cadman - Member TeamTNT

[Ichor]

I got the registered WadAuthor when I got the 3D Doom Alchemy book. I have used the shareware version once or twice, just to see how it was, and from what I remember, there really wasn't that much of a difference. However, the editor I use constantly is DCK 3.62 for all the Hexen editing. I probably would use the same thing for Doom maps (or maybe version 2.2), but I haven't made any single player Doom maps, only Heretic and Hexen.


I may try making one sometime, but it will feel rather odd not being able to use scripts and polyobjects.

[Use]

yeah, i bought wadauthor for 20 bucks THAT year, it had just been updated and it was mentioned on DW, IIRC. that was the year of the last update. i got my key in the mail and have used wadauthor very little since, only within the last six months or so i've picked it up and made some prelims with it for my zdoom project. i mentioned in another thread just a few minutes ago who i like WA, but it has some issues.

i did get my deepsea registered version this week and i love it

[Biffy]

I started this great hobby with WadAuthor. It has been 10x worth the $20 fee I paid for it. Started making Heretic stuff, later went for Doom after I started learning DM online. Its interface is so clean, menus simple, I learned pretty fast.

DeePsea is obviously the more comprehensive tool now. After learning WA inside and out, with its intuitive menus which remind me of typical Microsoft layout, I got several headaches with the DeePsea menus. I think I'm over that, but no way can I use DeePsea for map architecture tweaking as quickly as WA. That's not the tool's fault, it's my fault. I learned one tool, have not had reason to put the same effort into another. I use both WA and DeePsea, for specific purposes. What I recommend to anyone who is starting from zero is that they just learn DeePsea so they don't have the headache of switching software later.

[Biffy]

Ichor said:

I may try making one sometime, but it will feel rather odd not being able to use scripts and polyobjects.

Naw, just make those doom maps for Zdoom! Zdoom-hexen.prj for DeePsea, zdoom.wcf for WA. Bring on the scripts and polys!

[The Ultimate DooMer]

Ichor said:

I may try making one sometime, but it will feel rather odd not being able to use scripts and polyobjects.

Well, IIRC you made a fine pair of Heretic episodes, which didn't have scripts and polyobjects in.

[Ichor]

I was talking about making maps for old Doom 2, namely that megawad announced in another topic.

[pming]

Hiya.

DeepSea and WadAuthor. Love 'em both, registered the both. :)

DeepSea has one HUGE "problem" and one *exceedingly annoying* problem for me. The HUGE one is...I have to keep paying, roughly, $2.00 per month to use it (re: yearly update fee of about $25 canadian). My next "upgrade" to DeepSea will only be made IF my 'exceedingly annoying' problem is fixed...which is...scripting. WadAuthors scripting implimentation is *SUPA-SWEET!* Being able to Right Click --> Scripts. And that's it. I get a nice, clean scripting editor. When I'm done I hit "Compile"...and it tells me if there are any problems! Error/Debug info built right in! *Drool....* I love the speed and elegance.

DeepSea also has some things I'm not keen on:
Linedef "highlighting". It's so damn ugly. Big, fat, grainy highlighting...a bit PITA when you are dealing with trying to select a few small (2-4 length) linedefs all around eachother. I much prefer WA's simply changing the Linedef's color.
Having to right-click to move a V/T/L/S. I much prefer WA's left-click, and Crtl-Left-click to select multiple.
"Toolbar Creep". That is, for me anyway, (Win98) every time I come out of a test (runing the map via "Test Level", my toolbars have "crept" down a few pixles. I have to drag them back to where they are supposed to be. (May be just my computer, not sure; anyone else have this problem?). I wish to gawd they were normal, standard MS "dockable" toolbars like WA.

WadAuthor has some big annoyances itself:
Using another BSP builder is all but impossible. I've NEVER been able to get it to work. I have to use personalized .bat files.
Thing and Texture selection is annoying in that you can only see a handful of them at a time. Appearantly this is now fixed...but Mr.Williston hasn't released the latest version of WA. Damn him! ;)
Arbitrary "sector changes". A known, and wierd, bug in WA will sometimes get confused and "re-number" some linedefs so that you have 'open' sector errors that you have to go in and manualy fix.

And there you have it. My POV on both editors. If/when I do get an updated WadAuthor, I think I'll send Mr.Williston another $20...just to show my appreciation. I'll bet that a few of us registered users will do that, actually. Anyone else? Or am I just "wierd" that way?

^_^

Paul L. Ming

[Ichor]

I use Zennode 0.98a whenever I use WadAuthor (which isn't that often). The way I got it to work was like this:

Go to Tools, then select Options. Click on the Files tab, and you'll see this window:



Make the settings like you see there, and in the Command text window, add this:

zennode /nq /r $_Wadfile $_Mapname /o $_Wadfile

Hopefully this should work.

[Biffy]

Yeah Paul, you are "wierd". Hahaha, that's got to be one of the most-misspelled words around here. It's "weird". :)

No, I was just joking, of course most of us registered WA users will gladly pay for an upgrade. I'm with you.

Ichor - good tip, thanks. I tried to get WA to use BSP once, must not have gotten that command line right.

[Ichor]

It took me a long time to figure that one out. It drove me bonkers, too.

I think the command lines are different for different versions of Zennode, so try version 0.98a first to see if it works.

[Cadman]

I appreciate all the feedback about the two main editors our there. About Zennode, look at the latest version on his website. Many of the bugs have been squashed and it's an excellent nodebuilder for ZDoom/Hexen style of levels when it comes to polyobjects. How can I say this? Right now we are using Zennode for our latest project "Daedalus: Alien Defense" and it has been doing wonders for us. BTW, just about everyone else on TeamTNT is actually using ZETH for this project. I think I'm the only one using Deepsea for it...kinda funny.


Cadman - Member TeamTNT

[boris]

BTW, I think this is thread number 666 in the editing forum :)

[NiGHTMARE]

pming said:

Linedef "highlighting". It's so damn ugly. Big, fat, grainy highlighting...a bit PITA when you are dealing with trying to select a few small (2-4 length) linedefs all around eachother. I much prefer WA's simply changing the Linedef's color.

Simply go into the options menu (F5) and change Highlight Line Thickness to 1.

[fen boi]

The only annoying problem i've run into with Deepsea (11.3 is the version I have) is sometimes texture offsets don't get saved. And it only occurs when I make changes by clicking the left-mouse button on the line, the dialog box always seems to work.

Also mirroring a design works if you select linedefs, but selecting sectors and trying to mirror them makes deepsea lock-up.

I have found functions such as light level up/down and floor/ceiling height up/down on the toolbars to be very usefull. Especially when copying large areas into other maps (saves lots of time aligning stuff).

[Use]

Ichor said:

I use Zennode 0.98a whenever I use WadAuthor (which isn't that often).

dude Ichor, thanks that helped alot. i couldn't get the command line right trying to use an external builder. which is lame of me.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

fen boi said:

I have found functions such as light level up/down and floor/ceiling height up/down on the toolbars to be very usefull. Especially when copying large areas into other maps (saves lots of time aligning stuff).

Just in case you're wondering, you can actually do this in WadAuthor, too. In the sector properties box, type ++256 in the height or lighting boxes, and it puts the value up by 256 in all the highlighted sectors. This also works with --256 to drop the value. (obviously, it works with any number)

As far as this debate goes, I find WA much easier to use than DeePsea. The only reason I downloaded it is for ZDoom stuff that I can't do with Wintex. (which I also find easier to use than DeePsea)

[Rellik]

I gave WA a home on teamdeim.com hoping it would encourage him to keep up the good work on the program. Maybe we should all send him mail telling him how great his program is and maybe he'll get back to work on it? last I talked to him he'd also figured out a way to 'draw' sectors just like in WADED. :)

[pming]

Hiya.

I'd be more than willing to send an encouraging email to Mr.Williston...if I had his email...one that works. ;)

If you are leary about throwing it out on these boards, email me personally (pming11@hotmail.com). I have a few minor suggestions for WA I'd like to throw at him.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
Team Leader of TOO (Team Of One). ;)

[The Ultimate DooMer]

pming said:

I have a few minor suggestions for WA I'd like to throw at him.

Yeah, I have, too. Like being able to auto-align custom textures, and WA not crashing when accidentally pasting a free vertex.

[Rellik]

Acording to the text file he can be reached through this address:

wconsult@pacificnet.net

I'll check through my old mail and see if my correspondence with him is still there.

[Jayextee]

Rellik: Wha? There may be a WadEd-style mode of drawing in WA?

/me counts money.

Six pence. In pennies. Damn.

/me saves.

Seriously, the drawing method (IMO all done 'backwards' to what I'm used to) is my one and only real hangup with WA.

Therefore, I'd happily register the next version (If the drawing method is true to how it is in WadEd) whether you can cheat it (I.E Unzip the correct file) or not -- it would become my main editor.

[Rellik]

Hell yeah, if he gets that working I'll prolly send him 100 bucks just cause he kicks so much ass. 100 canadian dollars tho :p

[pming]

Hiya.

------------------------
Rellik:
"Acording to the text file he [Mr.Williston] can be reached through this address:

wconsult@pacificnet.net"
------------------------

Nope. I got a bounced email from that one. Damn.

[deep]

Biffy said:

After learning WA inside and out, with its intuitive menus which remind me of typical Microsoft layout, I got several headaches with the DeePsea menus.

There's nothing more or less intuitive with WA than any other DOOM editor. WA has FEWER menu options, which is not the same as "intuitive".

The "layout" in just about any program is "typical Microsoft layout". And even that is not an accurate statement. This "typical" layout matured over the years from DOS programs (not windows). The File, Edit, Options, Help etc was well established before Windows 3.1

Notepad is similarly "intuitive" compared to MS Word because there are far fewer menu choices and options:)

The issue is exactly what you say - people have a hard time learning a new program once they have dedicated considerable energy to learning another. That's why WADED users (an example of an odd interface they got used to) are so devoted and similarly for DEU, etc. DCK is conceptually/philosophically the closest to DeePsea.

[Tyockell]

i also registered WA i love the program got the hang of using it the first day i got the shareware but does anyone know why maps always screw up when i import all the stuff from the immoral conduct mod or even just when i run it using immoroal conduct and edge 1.27 my maps perfect on vannial doom but theres always something missing like walls sectors doors enemys seeing me through walls missing textures completly walking through walla shooting through walls never ending prolblems that cant be fixed and make me scrap a good map over and over again grrrrrr

[deep]

OK - this is just a factual comment:)

pming said:

DeepSea has one HUGE "problem" and one *exceedingly annoying* problem for me. The HUGE one is...I have to keep paying, roughly, $2.00 per month to use it (re: yearly update fee of about $25 canadian).

Well, that's a common complaint<g> Now think why WA doesn't do any updates? Easy - he gets nothing for his efforts.

My next "upgrade" to DeepSea will only be made IF my 'exceedingly annoying' problem is fixed...which is...scripting. WadAuthors scripting implimentation is *SUPA-SWEET!* Being able to Right Click --> Scripts. And that's it.

We discussed this already.

1. Can't right click in DeePsea since that is already used. However, pressing F6 or clicking the script toolbar button is faster and easier (see next). This also mimics Biffs statement - it's what you got used to - not really a problem.

2. Right clickin in WA is a PIA since as you know it has to be in an OPEN AREA (that's my POV).

3. WA is limited to 64kb scripts. Yes this is a problem.

4. WA lacks common editing features available in just about any text editor. DeePsea lets you choose the editor of choice - with the features most coders want in an editor. IOW, if I don't have the time to write a proper editor, it's much better to use the fine work done by others.

5. You get exactly the same instant edit/compile/save in DeePsea. It's "nice, clean", plus the DeePACC compiler in DeePsea has more accurate error messages (ZDOOM) than the stock ACC. Plus you can control the various steps.

Linedef "highlighting". It's so damn ugly. Big, fat, grainy highlighting...a bit PITA when you are dealing with trying to select a few small (2-4 length) linedefs all around eachother. I much prefer WA's simply changing the Linedef's color.

As already noted, you can change the width - strange you didn't know that. However, DEU/DETH/ZETH has exactly the same type of highlighting (just not variable in width). It also has to do with your screen res. IOW, "grainy" depends on your monitor quality and resolution. 1024x768 is the preferred minimum. Looks great to me:) Btw, you can ZOOM 4 times closer than WA, something you forgot to mention - making selecting small segments very easy.

Having to right-click to move a V/T/L/S. I much prefer WA's left-click, and Crtl-Left-click to select multiple.

Why do you have to right click? Just drag the sucker while holding the RIGHT mouse button down. No clicking required. If you want to select multiple, draw a rubber band select box. Or just RIGHT click the ones you want (with NO key required). Can't see the point here at all. Unless you want to say that you prefer LEFT over RIGHT? Well, that's not exactly objective.

"Toolbar Creep". That is, for me anyway, (Win98) every time I come out of a test (runing the map via "Test Level", my toolbars have "crept" down a few pixles.

That was actually caused by the DOOM Port you used (all the GL ones do this) and was fixed in 11.65 (OPENGL was sending multiple change res messages on exit). If you still have this problem, could be you had an early version? Check it out again and let me know. I'll send an update if it still shifts.

I wish to gawd they were normal, standard MS "dockable" toolbars like WA.

Why? You can customize the DeePsea toolbars to anything you like. Icons, what they do, etc. Again a case of rebelling against what you got used to. WA isn't exactly loaded with toolbar options.

However, the most amazing thing to me is this: WHY doesn't anyone report PROBLEMS via EMAIL? If you have a repeatable problem, tell me in accurate terms. I'll fix it and send you the fix. If you don't tell me - I don't know about it. It's that simple.

A lot of times, the problem has nothing to do with DeePsea (name your editor). Various video, keyboard, sound and mouse drivers are responsible for a lot of issues - and some ports randomly destroy memory which affect the editors:)

[spank]

Why do you have to right click? Just drag the sucker while holding the RIGHT mouse button down. No clicking required.

O_o