wad author problems

[deadnail]

Yours, you godless heathen! =P

[Lüt]

I gave deepsea a try. Now, I don't understand HOW THE HELL you call your interface friendly. I found it confusing. Now, don't try and spurt off some, "learn to use it" crap. Because quite frankly, the point of a friendly interface is that you don't need to learn anything to do basic functions. I figured edmap out without reading anything, until I wanted to use some of the more advanced features of it.

Hey, I finally managed to learn it, after about 2 years. It's a lot more useful that WadEd. I still think the drawing is whack but at least there's an "undo" option and you don't have to worry about it crashing every 5 sectors you make.

[Katgut]

I gave deepsea a try. Now, I don't understand HOW THE HELL you call your interface friendly. I found it confusing. Now, don't try and spurt off some, "learn to use it" crap. Because quite frankly, the point of a friendly interface is that you don't need to learn anything to do basic functions. I figured edmap out without reading anything, until I wanted to use some of the more advanced features of it.

Hey, I finally managed to learn it, after about 2 years. It's a lot more useful that WadEd. I still think the drawing is whack but at least there's an "undo" option and you don't have to worry about it crashing every 5 sectors you make.

Heh. Last time I tried WadEd, it crashed. Granted, this was an old version that didn't recognize Ultimate Doom (apparently), but that scared me off from using it.

If it weren't for EdMap's memory limit, I wouldn't mind using it.

And what the fuck is with a Doom level editor with a learning curve so steep it takes TWO YEARS to learn it? That's supposed to be reserved for Quake editors.

[Lüt]

And what the fuck is with a Doom level editor with a learning curve so steep it takes TWO YEARS to learn it? That's supposed to be reserved for Quake editors.

Well I do have to admit I'm an idiot (you should know that by now) - I expect programs to work logically, I guess that's why I have a hard time figuring certain ones out. It's not like I sat down with the thing for a few hours every day for those 2 years - I started using it for error checking, then a few other things, then some more things. I tried multiple times to get it to draw but it just never worked. Since I began to actually use some of it's features like auto-offset and stuff on a regular basis, I finally bought it and the latest version seemed to make everything possible. Not totally logical, but I've managed to work around most of it's oddities. It's a pain, but not half as bad as WadEd, or any other editor I've tried.

No, I only used it maybe a few times each month, got frustrated and closed it. If I had seriously tried to learn it and made it top priority I probably could have learned everything I know now in about a month or so.

[spank]

I think the way of editing Quake levels and the like can be more straight-forward than drawing sectors. You just lay down the brushes that make up the rooms, then the entities: as simple as that.

Of course, some level editors prefer a bunch of badly disclosed features prior to getting to the point, and that is what drives people crazy when doing maps. But mind you, many Doom-like editors do that too...

[Grul]

I've tried many editors, and still DCK is the best when it comes to drawing, manual texture aligning (the auto-align function doesn't always work), item placement and overall usefulness. DCK has a very inituitive user inteface, when you learn it you make levels at a speed probably unsurpassed by other editors.

There are also various drawbacks, of course.
1. DCK only runs in pure DOS.
2. It chrashes sometimes.
3. It has a very limited texture memory. On the overall, level editing with any resources beyond those of doom / doom 2 is kinda tricky.

But believe me, it's worth it. Now, let the "My editor is way better than your editor, you're so stupid that you use that piece of junk"-flame war begin :)

[deathz0r]

WADAUTHOR RULES!!!! there we go.

[deadnail]

WADAUTHOR RULES!!!! there we go.

Amen brother. =)

The reasons I like WadAuthor are simple.

#1, it's functional and simple to use. If you seriously sit down and try to learn it on your own you can in less than a month. If you get help over ICQ or with some well written tutorials I'd bet you could be flyin' in under a week.

#2, it rarely crashes. It does cause some interesting errors when its been running for too long, though. The easy way to tell when its gone crosseyed is to try scrolling the map with the arrow keys. If it doesn't work, immidiately check for errors. If everything's cool, save, close, and reload your map. Trust me. =)

#3, its not a bloatware product. It makes levels, that is all it does and it does it well. It doesn't convert music for you, make wads, or any other stupid crap that there's already adequate software to do. However, I recommend using BSP 5.0 as an external node builder... once you get into some seriously detailed levels the internal node builder can get screwy.

Oh, and the biggest hint I can give aspiring Doom mappers who wish to learn Wad Author is simple... no one could've told me and I'm to ignorant to read any documents that came with it... but the 'select none' feature is the escape key. When you're zoomed in max and doing some serious linedef work that is very handy to know.

I just think that everything that can be done with an option from a right-click context menu should also be a keyboard shortcut... especially splitting linedefs (apparantly its supposed to be x but that doesn't work very well).

Oh well. My wad authoring program is better. But hey, I'm biased.

[deathz0r]

exactly. wadauthor, BSP, and wintex is a deadly combination. however, since i'm doing EDGE levels, BSP is replaced by GlBSP, which is just as good.

oh, and splitting linedefs with x seems to work fine with me.

[Liam]

I too love wadauthor. The only problem is i get a lot of damned unclosed sector errors when making a room detailed. That's why I have waded. If I have problems with unclosed sectors, i can just make them closed with waded's make sector.

[deadnail]

oh, and splitting linedefs with x seems to work fine with me.

THANK YOU OH SO MUCH for telling me that. I only tried it once and dismissed it but in my haste I (for some stupid ass reason) thought that a linedef only need be highlighted by the mouse cursor for it to split! No, you have to click it to select it first. Stupid me.

Well, that would've saved me about four hours of clicking at this point. =)

[DeePsea]

Look up "opinion". Look up "biased". Maybe I don't like your editor because it's a crashy bastard compared to similar programs that are years older.

About what I expected. You are full of it and a loud mouth. Most of the time you spout off on stuff you know very little to nothing about. Yeah everyone has an opinion, some are just not too rational. Even as "opinion" making stuff up is ..err.. making stuff up.

Maybe its just because I can run any combination of programs on my computer imaginable but when DeepSea is thrown in the mix it all turns sour.

Pure B.S. You know as well as I that after running a system for a while it's possible for any single program to be the victim of some other errant program. I did the ICQ thing you claimed caused all these probs and like I thought, you were just blowing it out again. Works fine.

Every program, regardless of its purpose, is cryptic in the sense that if you don't know how to do things you won't know how to have the program do things for you.

That's right AND that's exactly what I wrote. If you don't take the time, have the skill or whatever, you'll never learn program X,Y or Z. The problem is centered around WANTING to learn.

Some people can't take friendly advice without attempting to be condescending or otherwise penile in nature (many cases in point I could state).

Geez - Look in the mirror.

[DeePsea]

Now, I don't understand HOW THE HELL you call your interface friendly. I found it confusing.

LOL, you do have to press enter or right click to get up a dialog. I find your post quite confusing:) [just demonstrating how "opinion" can be twisted to any purpose desired]

Now, don't try and spurt off some, "learn to use it" crap. Because quite frankly, the point of a friendly interface is that you don't need to learn anything to do basic functions.

Quite the round-about reasoning you have there. The basic functions are prefabs (same as WA) and drawing (not in WA). I agree not everyone can handle 2 choices.

I figured edmap out without reading anything, until I wanted to use some of the more advanced features of it.

Oh no, that means it's not a "friendly interface" - you actually had to read something.

The problem with all these arguments is a fixation on the "first editor" you learned. It's just a human nature thing.

And why is it when someone claims to use a different editor, you always spam your editor down their throat? God that's fucking annoying.

I didn't. But when somebody makes a lame claim about "cryptic", when it's clear as a bell that ANY program requires a background first in the subject matter and then how to use the program. To see what I mean, put a person who has never used a computer in front of the screen and see how far they get .. NOWHERE. Does that mean the Windows (Mac) interface is bad?

[DeePsea]

I've tried many editors, and still DCK is the best when it comes to drawing,

DCK is an excellent progam. Funny thing is, it's more or less just like DeePsea in the way it draws.

[Lüt]

I did the ICQ thing you claimed caused all these probs and like I thought, you were just blowing it out again. Works fine.

Actually, everything crashes with ICQ - DeePsea, WinMX, Napster, WebExpress, Office, AOL, AIM (loses connection all the time)... just close ICQ, that steaming pile of donkey crap the only reason everything crashes - it has nothing to do with any other programs being shite.

[DeePsea]

If you seriously sit down and try to learn it on your own you can in less than a month.

If you sit down with ANY editor you can learn it in less than a month. You can learn to draw with DeePsea in 1 day - but one does have to run the interactive tutorial:)

It makes levels, that is all it does and it does it well.

More LOL. Yeah, busting up prefabs is a quick way to draw? Anybody who has used linedrawing (a WHOLE bunch of editors do this) will choke on WA's method of creating areas. Way too cumbersome, way too slow. But if one likes prefabs, that's available too - but they are interactive so you can move and resize them onscreen.

A program that has different modules integrated to handle ALL the aspects of editing is hardly "bloatware". Bloatware is a program that is HUGE with hardly any features. DeePsea has a 4MB footprint WITH the textures and levels loaded. Hardly bloatware (unless you care to call DOOM bloatware?).

The other issue with a comment like that, is that virtual memory is there for a purpose - to page out inactive sections of code. So you see, any section of the code that is not used takes up no physical space at all! Knowing how stuff works helps!

It doesn't convert music for you, make wads, or any other stupid crap that there's already adequate software to do.

There is no "adequate" stuff at all. If that was true why is the Wintex guy putting out "fixes" or why is there XWE? Besides, there are a lot of functions you can't find ANYWHERE else - something that would be obvious if you actually knew DeePsea at all.

and I'm to ignorant to read any documents that came with it

Exactly - you don't want to read anything. So what you do is use what you know about some other program and try the same thing. That doesn't work, so you blast it. Not very rational, not very productive.

Don't hide in circumspect words - everyone has "opinion" and "bias", but that's like arguing that water is wet - a trivial nonsense. To be set in one's way is the first sign of getting "old". For some that starts very very early. For others it sets in when they are dead:)

[fraggle]

I did the ICQ thing you claimed caused all these probs and like I thought, you were just blowing it out again. Works fine.

Actually, everything crashes with ICQ - DeePsea, WinMX, Napster, WebExpress, Office, AOL, AIM (loses connection all the time)... just close ICQ, that steaming pile of donkey crap the only reason everything crashes - it has nothing to do with any other programs being shite.

Actually, its your OS's fault. If you run a proper, memory protected OS, crashes like this should be impossible.

[Lüt]

I did the ICQ thing you claimed caused all these probs and like I thought, you were just blowing it out again. Works fine.

Actually, everything crashes with ICQ - DeePsea, WinMX, Napster, WebExpress, Office, AOL, AIM (loses connection all the time)... just close ICQ, that steaming pile of donkey crap the only reason everything crashes - it has nothing to do with any other programs being shite.

Actually, its your OS's fault. If you run a proper, memory protected OS, crashes like this should be impossible.

ICQ being the *only* program that ever does that leads me to believe, along with 90% of it's other users, that it sucks. There's never any crashes from any programs, EVER, until ICQ rears it's ugly festering bloated head.

[deadnail]

About what I expected. You are full of it and a loud mouth. Most of the time you spout off on stuff you know very little to nothing about. Yeah everyone has an opinion, some are just not too rational. Even as "opinion" making stuff up is ..err.. making stuff up.

Thanks, glad I can express myself freely.

Pure B.S. You know as well as I that after running a system for a while it's possible for any single program to be the victim of some other errant program. I did the ICQ thing you claimed caused all these probs and like I thought, you were just blowing it out again. Works fine.

Hey, I'm not arguing that there's no configuration of programs I can have running at once on my system (ie, none) with yours but the point is that I'm constantly doing way too many things on my system at once. Perhaps if I was using a true multitasking system I wouldn't hate your program.

But I am using Win98SE, so tough shit.

Geez - Look in the mirror.

I know, my hair is going half way down my back. I need to shave my head again.

More LOL. Yeah, busting up prefabs is a quick way to draw? Anybody who has used linedrawing (a WHOLE bunch of editors do this) will choke on WA's method of creating areas. Way too cumbersome, way too slow. But if one likes prefabs, that's available too - but they are interactive so you can move and resize them onscreen.

Yeah I know, that was my favorite thing about Build. However, Build was an exceptionally crashy editor that refused to run decently if it wasn't run in pure DOS. To be honest, I really don't like the way I have to make complex sectors in WA. Drawing sectors would be a lot friendlier. But like I said, the reason I quit using Build is because it won't run without crashing.

A program that has different modules integrated to handle ALL the aspects of editing is hardly "bloatware". Bloatware is a program that is HUGE with hardly any features. DeePsea has a 4MB footprint WITH the textures and levels loaded. Hardly bloatware (unless you care to call DOOM bloatware?).

Fine I take it back, your program isn't bloatware. Its just Hitler when it comes to other programs running.

There is no "adequate" stuff at all. If that was true why is the Wintex guy putting out "fixes" or why is there XWE? Besides, there are a lot of functions you can't find ANYWHERE else - something that would be obvious if you actually knew DeePsea at all.

I've never had any trouble doing everything I needed to do with WinTEX and NWT. Then again, maybe your interface is superior. Now I just need to be able to run it without my system locking up.

Whoops, I said it again didn't I? Damn my opinionated and loud mouthed ass.

Exactly - you don't want to read anything. So what you do is use what you know about some other program and try the same thing. That doesn't work, so you blast it. Not very rational, not very productive.

I didn't know any other editor out there before I tried your editor, bucko. Remember? Not paying much attention to a potential customer I see.

I blast programs when they do unpredictable things. Sure, I'll blast the hell out of Wad Author too for some of it's quirks. Would that make you feel better?

Don't hide in circumspect words - everyone has "opinion" and "bias", but that's like arguing that water is wet - a trivial nonsense. To be set in one's way is the first sign of getting "old". For some that starts very very early. For others it sets in when they are dead:)

Wow now that's just so Goddamned clever.

I guess I'm set in my ways.

I like my programs stable.

So fine, what the fuck do you want me to say? DeepSea is a fine program that never crashes, does everything I would ever need it to do and more, has a tiny memory footprint irregardless of my 640 meg swap file of virtual memory and the guy that makes it is a charismatic person that I enjoy talking to?

I'm a liar but that's pushing it even for me.

Do you want me to download your program, install it, restart my system and run it clean just to give it a shot? If it's Jesus Christ on wheels like you're proclaiming maybe it'll be worth finding out which programs I can run it with.

I still don't like the interface though, so I'm going to read your help file. It had damn well better explain the basics of your sector drawing, merging, sector properties and all the other basic shit I'm used to doing. If that's not said plain as day without having to jump between 10 pages of help files I'll be back to voice my opinion again.

I can't help it, I'm an American.

[deadnail]

Its a natural thing of preference, I think. Some people learn image editing with Photoshop and then are inable to use another program to do it, even a simpler one, like Paint Shop Pro.

Luckily, I learned with Paint Shop Pro.

So anyway, I've just tried your program.

I don't like the interface. Sorry, I don't. First and foremost I have three mouse buttons so I don't see the need in making a double right-click for context menus. Support for the mouse wheel would also be handy.

I tried the tutorial. The best thing I can say about it is that its basically functional. However, I think its also a little bit presumtuous and poorly worded.

The point of a tutorial is to teach people how to do things. Doing things for them (as you often do during it) is nothing more than irritating.

There was more than once when your program decided to zoom in really really far on its own. Just using + and - is fine for me, there must be some other shortcuts that I'm hitting inadvertently. I wasn't holding shift or control, though.

Your thing placing is nowhere near as simple to use as Wad Author but at the same time it does NOT give more control over the things you place.

Your sector drawing tool seems to get the job done but I also dislike the fact that its inobvious how to stop drawing them damn things since clicking anywhere after making your sector just draws another line.

Do you know what would make it 1000X better, in my opinion? Press ctrl+d or whatever the hell the shortcut is and the first dot is drawn where the cursor is. D would of course be simpler. From then just use the left button to place more vertices and once you right click you're done. To start again press d again.

That just makes a shitload more sense to me then all of your 'modes'. Being able to edit everything at once without switching between four or five different methods... all of them completely incompatible with each other.

Basically DeePsea seems like an editor that has had it's interface fractioned into several different areas and none of them really do anything for me.

I still have it laying around, though, and how the hell do you actually get the grid to show up?

Without doubt the first thing that irritated the living hell out of me was the audio. That was the first damn thing I disabled.