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superchargecacodemons800

E2M2 is the best map that ever existed!

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It still scares me.  Which probably means it's a great map.  The music, the crates, the way you shoot the first imp and just here this eruption of enemies somewhere in the level.  Oh god the crates!

 

Tell me this doesn't give you chills!

 

E2M2.png

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17 minutes ago, Bauul said:

Tell me this doesn't give you chills!

it does, in a literal sense

the textures and flats and general atmosphere of the level make me feel cold, like actually cold

like the crate maze is in a cold area

brrrrrrr

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I actually kinda prefer Tom Hall's more structured and maze-like design as well as his strong attention to detail.

 

As primitive as Wolf 3D is, I like it more than Doom in some ways.

 

So yeah, E2M2 is awesome.

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It's among my personal favorite levels in Episode 2 or even the entire game really. I like the music for building up the atmosphere and the maze level design is eyecatching to me with all the crates. It's also the map that introduces the Berserk power up and it allows opportunities to use your fists. Nothing is more fun than seeing your fist gib an Imp with one buffed punch.

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Yeah, E2M2 is Tom Hall's masterpiece. I think an early version is in one of the Doom Alphas, if I recall. The crates are "proper texture size", if you know what I mean - this helps make the map look realistic. I always felt like the side rooms were to be important to Tom's Doom Bible plans. Some of the areas seem "important", as if some fancy scripting stuff was supposed to happen, but the functionality was never added to Doom, so the rooms became pretty, but useless.

 

Still, an awesome map.

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On 6. 9. 2017 at 0:30 AM, Da Werecat said:

Crate mazes have a bad rep. But I wouldn't even call the crates in E2M2 a maze. There's a lot of space, and it's all pretty straightforward.

i agree, i lost myself only once and that was when i  looking for that shotgun shells secret

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Again, E2M2 is the best map in all of first person shooter games. I am against opinions saying that E2M2 is fucking stupid. In fact I really like maps designed by a collaboration between Tom Hall and Sandy Petersen (except for Doom II refueling base ofc).

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On 9/5/2017 at 9:04 PM, Blastfrog said:

I actually kinda prefer Tom Hall's more structured and maze-like design as well as his strong attention to detail.

 

As primitive as Wolf 3D is, I like it more than Doom in some ways.

 

So yeah, E2M2 is awesome.

Wolf3D had some really underrated and honestly great level design. if you compare it to a lot of the raycast engine style games that came after (like, say, Blake Stone), there's no real comparison. the design is way better on so many different fronts. there are so many more ideas and distinct moments in Wolfenstein 3D levels, and so much playing with expectation. probably the best examples of this are in Episode 4 floor 5 (which is genuinely disturbing and plays absurdist 4th wall tricks) and Episode 3 floor 8 (which is incredibly suspenseful and unpredictable) which are among my favorite videogame levels. both are designed by Tom Hall, of course. i will say i've never cared for Spear of Destiny as much as other people because it's less brilliantly unpredictable i its design, but it does also have that strong sense of place that his best maps do.

 

i think people forget about Wolf3D 1) because it's so flat and 2) because Episode 1 mostly sucks and that's what people mostly played. Episode 1 is these lost, long hallways that do genuinely feel like a prison but aren't entirely captivating from a gameplay perspective. Episodes 2-6. though, all have a lot of classic moments in them, even though they can be scattered. even though 4 is my favorite for how truly bizarre it is, i think Wolf 3D Episodes 2 and 5 are the ones most worth playing overall. in spite of the fact that he can be inconsistent, Tom Hall was and is one of my favorite game designers, and i even felt that from playing some of his Mario Maker levels back a couple of years ago. he doesn't make the self-contained aesthetic contributions that Romero does but i feel like he's the more brilliant and versatile designer, especially at his best. his maps tell stories that are really captivating and multi-layered.

 

E2M2 is abstract in the way the best Doom levels are, but it has a fully realized sense of place. it actually feels like a functioning base of some kind of while also being an engaging experience that introduce strange elements into the mix - no small feat. the whole idea of a base overtaken by otherworldly and hellish elements is felt strongly the map - no ingame storytelling is needed. so many ideas are contained in what might initially seem to be a flat and boxy layout. it's like the level tells an entire story as you go through it (another thing you can feel very much in particular with episode 2 map 4 of Doom 1). it also feels labyrinthine but in a way that is exciting and interesting to unpack, and not as complicated as it might look. the fact that the crate maze is a central feature of the level but you can largely bypass it because the map points you to the critical path by the berserk pak is also really brilliant. i'm glad this map, and Tom Hall as a designer, is finally getting the love it deserves from the Doom community. i think E3M7 is almost as brilliant of a moody puzzle-style map with its own very distinct sense of place that i've still seen very few maps ever touch, though it may not wow like E2M2 does.

Edited by ella guro

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On 9/25/2017 at 5:29 AM, ella guro said:

Wolf3D had some really underrated and honestly great level design. if you compare it to a lot of the raycast engine style games that came after (like, say, Blake Stone), there's no real comparison. the design is way better on so many different fronts. there are so many more ideas and distinct moments in Wolfenstein 3D levels, and so much playing with expectation. probably the best examples of this are in Episode 4 floor 5 (which is genuinely disturbing and plays absurdist 4th wall tricks) and Episode 3 floor 8 (which is incredibly suspenseful and unpredictable) which are among my favorite videogame levels. both are designed by Tom Hall, of course. i will say i've never cared for Spear of Destiny as much as other people because it's less brilliantly unpredictable i its design, but it does also have that strong sense of place that his best maps do.

 

i think people forget about Wolf3D 1) because it's so flat and 2) because Episode 1 mostly sucks and that's what people mostly played. Episode 1 is these lost, long hallways that do genuinely feel like a prison but aren't entirely captivating from a gameplay perspective. Episodes 2-6. though, all have a lot of classic moments in them, even though they can be scattered. even though 4 is my favorite for how truly bizarre it is, i think Wolf 3D Episodes 2 and 5 are the ones most worth playing overall. in spite of the fact that he can be inconsistent, Tom Hall was and is one of my favorite game designers, and i even felt that from playing some of his Mario Maker levels back a couple of years ago. he doesn't make the self-contained aesthetic contributions that Romero does but i feel like he's the more brilliant and versatile designer, especially at his best. his maps tell stories that are really captivating and multi-layered.

 

E2M2 is abstract in the way the best Doom levels are, but it has a fully realized sense of place. it actually feels like a functioning base of some kind of while also being an engaging experience that introduce strange elements into the mix - no small feat. the whole idea of a base overtaken by otherworldly and hellish elements is felt strongly the map - no ingame storytelling is needed. so many ideas are contained in what might initially seem to be a flat and boxy layout. it's like the level tells an entire story as you go through it (another thing you can feel very much in particular with episode 2 map 4 of Doom 1). it also feels labyrinthine but in a way that is exciting and interesting to unpack, and not as complicated as it might look. the fact that the crate maze is a central feature of the level but you can largely bypass it because the map points you to the critical path by the berserk pak is also really brilliant. i'm glad this map, and Tom Hall as a designer, is finally getting the love it deserves from the Doom community. i think E3M7 is almost as brilliant of a moody puzzle-style map with its own very distinct sense of place that i've still seen very few maps ever touch, though it may not wow like E2M2 does.

I did play Wolf3D and I keep enjoying it nevertheless :P

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2 minutes ago, Job said:

All this E2M2 love is starting to crate on my nerves. 

Now that's what I call a crate pun!

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E2M2 is so legendary, there is a holiday for it (December 26th).

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52 minutes ago, insertwackynamehere said:

Boxing Day because of the crates or because of the Berserk pack 🤔

Yes.

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What's the other map that's shaped like a hand? I love that one as well. Maybe more? Hard to say.

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I can't begin to understand why people like this map, didn't rooms full of crates become a meme?

Edited by Ancalagon

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Stuff like crates become cliché because they work. If crates weren't awesome they'd be a one and done. What else allows you to build an environment with lego-like flexibility? Well I guess lego does.

 

Let go of the hate, embrace the crate. They are a-mazing.

 

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The reason it "worked" back then was because it managed to get the idea of a huge storage hall across, which makes people uncomfortable (maybe). Doesn't change the impression I get from it, that it's over the top and kinda comical as a result.

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On 9/25/2017 at 5:29 AM, ella guro said:

i think people forget about Wolf3D

 

this brings me deep regret and sadness, my custom maps were not good enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

e2m2 is cool because, like Spawning Vats, large portions of it are incorporated between two designers, and that's always interesting to see. The 'crate maze' that's not actually a true maze is interesting because I guess the geometry assets were in place, what else do you texture that kind of thing with, given the original idea? The crates are confusing enough to contain mazelike elements but the outside border is never far away, and in a "labyrinth" you can't really tell exactly where you are once you get far in... that's when the Minotaur finds you :o

 

I've always found the ceiling/floor textures in the crate area really interesting, giant sectors filled with light ceilings can look bad if not segmented right, but given the overall linearity and shape of the place it's not distracting like it can be in other situations. The fact that the green brick area serves as a sort of "hub" is a nice contrast to the concrete tech crate maze you come from. I guess the concrete areas would look wide open if you theoretically shipped all the crates out, but it serves well to show the difference between "techbase" and "hell" architecture.

 

The rest of the level is that sweet blend of the two themes, and it's hilarious to think of the combined elements like wood crushers. I know it's just a texture with a skull on it, but the wood is not likely be UAC approved material, especially for something like a crusher in a factory/warehouse setting. In this spot for example it quickly carries the theme of the entire game across, an invasion/disfiguration of a techbase by hell. The extremely contrasting material textures display that idea, as well as the 'randomness' theme that is present in all the "hell" themed levels. 

 

"start to crate" is one of the best level design jokes/tropes of all time, but that's just it - they can be seen as 'boring' if not used 'effectively', and e2m2 came with the game early on. Here they serve not only as background but progression, as well as decoration, I suppose. They are a good element for any level to add implied background story - Who put the crate there? What's in the crate? Mercy me, did they ever have to replace a light after one was broken. because they literally fit with no gaps in the warehouse, and only robots have that kind of accuracy. Tell me the name of the poor UAC warehouse worker who got sacked for breaking a ceiling light. In retrospect, he was probably better off :)

 

 

Edited by reflex17

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On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 8:57 AM, Chezza said:

What's the other map that's shaped like a hand? I love that one as well. Maybe more? Hard to say.

oh man, i hate this map. one of the worst in doom for me

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