Finding Evilution Hard To Love (And I guess a chat about level design in general)

[Deleted_Account]

Perhaps in a parallel dimension ID Software actually crafted Final Doom themselves. New levels, new weapon and monster additions, new tunes etc.

[CapnClever]

2 hours ago, fraggle said:

At the same time I think Evilution deserves some credit based on the era in which it was released. If it's no longer an IWAD, it instead becomes the first megaWAD. If you check the "top WADs" listings for 1994 and 1995, there are some creative things being released - "retheming" mods like Alien Doom and Boothill, Doom 1 episode replacements and "mini episodes", interesting individual episodes like UAC_DEAD, and of course Dwango5 which is essentially a collection of modified IWAD maps. There's nothing that seems to be really on the scale of Evilution with a big team coming together to do a complete set of new 32 levels.

 

So if we're taking a critical look at Evilution it's worth looking at it through that lens. Maybe they aren't the best Doom levels ever made, but they are by no means "1994 levels" (and remember that they completed it in 1995). By the quality of the time they're still decent levels, but Evilution was put together at a time still very early in Doom's history before the "art" of Doom level making had fully matured (I'd argue that late 1996 was the point at which it fully matured). I'd say that Evilution represents roughly the best of the "state of the art" in late 1995.

This is a solid point. Just as an aside, however, Memento Mori easily predates even a theoretical late October 1995 release of Evilution. As it is easy to forget, the idgames upload is based on the updated version, not the original: MMMUS.WAD has a timestamp of January 11 1995. While that isn't necessarily the release date (comparing MM2MUS.WAD and MM2.WAD shows a 44-day difference) the info of Memento Mori states:

Quote

Memento Mori took us more than 5 months to complete and it's worth the time!

so the worst-case would be 5-6 months after MMMUS.WAD's timestamp, or July-August 1995 (though more likely before then). In addition, there's BF_THUD!.WAD (29 levels from January 11 1995) , OBTIC.WAD (19 levels from January 26 1995), and Cleimos II (a full 32 levels from November 20 1995, though this barely loses out). And I think it's fair to think of Serenity/Eternity/Infinity trilogy as a full three-episode replacement for Doom1, even if they aren't packaged as such. If we're truly looking for a 32-level replacement as a "megawad", then Memento Mori counts as the first to my limited knowledge, but I think it's safe to say that other projects were just as ambitious right around that time.

 

Getting way off-track, though.

 

1 hour ago, Da Werecat said:

I was pretty excited for Icarus before I actually played it. I think I was told that it was a more cohesive experience than Evilution, et cetera, so I expected an improvement. Maybe it was an improvement, I dunno. What I mostly remember is being vastly disappointed with the soundtrack. Music was why I was interested in a "better Evilution" to begin with, and Eternal Doom just cemented my belief that Team TNT is filled with really good composers.

Really! 'Cause I found Icarus's soundtrack the most impressive part in my own playthrough of it. Again, this calls back to it being less of a Doom game, and the soundtrack reflects that. If you want songs that complement Doom, then Evilution does a better job... perhaps because a quarter of its songs are still from Doom II, so they can't sound completely alien to the rest of it. It's probably why so very few tracks from Icarus and Eternal Doom are recycled. I still say TeamTNT's later works are better at what TeamTNT was trying to accomplish (that is, Doom yet not Doom), which is also to say if you're not looking for that then they'll seem worse instead. If you require further evidence, Daedalus: Alien Defense pretty obviously strays even farther from Doom's archetypal elements (nevermind that it's supposedly a sequel to Icarus).

 

And to reiterate, I don't think of Evilution as especially poor quality or anything. It's got my favorite secret levels among the IWADs, for starters. I just think it overshadows a ton of PWADs in the minds of many because of its IWAD status, especially those who haven't stepped beyond the boundary of the official games. I don't think we'd see all these related projects if it were not an IWAD.

[Da Werecat]

Maybe I should replay Icarus. I really don't remember much of it, including its music. I only remember that it was very grey.

[fraggle]

1 hour ago, CapnClever said:

This is a solid point. Just as an aside, however, Memento Mori easily predates even a theoretical late October 1995 release of Evilution. As it is easy to forget, the idgames upload is based on the updated version, not the original: MMMUS.WAD has a timestamp of January 11 1995. While that isn't necessarily the release date (comparing MM2MUS.WAD and MM2.WAD shows a 44-day difference) the info of Memento Mori states:

Interesting. So the Doomworld top 100 list has it listed under the wrong year, then?

[Jaws In Space]

2 hours ago, CapnClever said:

This is a solid point. Just as an aside, however, Memento Mori easily predates even a theoretical late October 1995 release of Evilution. As it is easy to forget, the idgames upload is based on the updated version, not the original: MMMUS.WAD has a timestamp of January 11 1995. While that isn't necessarily the release date (comparing MM2MUS.WAD and MM2.WAD shows a 44-day difference) the info of Memento Mori states:

so the worst-case would be 5-6 months after MMMUS.WAD's timestamp, or July-August 1995 (though more likely before then). In addition, there's BF_THUD!.WAD (29 levels from January 11 1995) , OBTIC.WAD (19 levels from January 26 1995), and Cleimos II (a full 32 levels from November 20 1995, though this barely loses out). And I think it's fair to think of Serenity/Eternity/Infinity trilogy as a full three-episode replacement for Doom1, even if they aren't packaged as such. If we're truly looking for a 32-level replacement as a "megawad", then Memento Mori counts as the first to my limited knowledge, but I think it's safe to say that other projects were just as ambitious right around that time.

 

Memenot Mori probably doesn't predate TNT: Evilution. MM came out sometime between November 24, 1995 & December 15, 1995

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/deathmatch/s-u/unlag5

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/deathmatch/deathtag/hex_tag

 

Sorry another edit:

TIC who spearheaded Memento Mori released Obituary in May of 1995, since it's unlikely they were working on two major projects at the same time it's safe to assume that MM was started about the same time that was finished & when you go 5 months after May you find yourself in November, which is right at my estimated release date of MM.

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/m-o/obtic11

 

TNT is a bit harder to pin but down here is Milo Casali talking about how Evilution will be released in a few weeks dated August 24, 1995

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/deathmatch/s-u/thebest4

Then here you have David Hill talking about how ID is in negotiations to purchase Evilution dated December 9, 1995. This still indicates that the wad was completed at this time.

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/deathmatch/m-o/mentzer7

 

Edit: even better. From the 5 years of Doom interview with Ty Halderman -

IJohn Romero, at 7:24PM on October 24, 1995 (we were planning to release about midnight) wrote to me: "Hey - release date is tomorrow, eh? Are you guys selling this, or would you like us to do it? If you didn't release this on the net it would be more valuable in retail."  Members of the QCT (Quality Control Team--the Evilution leadership team) met him on IRC about an hour later.

 

Edited September 11, 2017 by Jaws In Space

[CorianderCastor]

 

6 minutes ago, fraggle said:

Interesting. So the Doomworld top 100 list has it listed under the wrong year, then?

I thought the top 100 list has some known inaccuracies, so I could see that.

 

I still need to finish Final Doom, I'm currently working on Evilution again. I think I like Sieban's  and Mustaine's styles over the Casali Brothers. It's like Jimmy Sieban does what I like about Petersen maps without the same flaws, and Tom Mustaine has a similar style to McGee, which makes sense. Also I'm bad at Doom; I tank homing missiles with my face and strafe into imp balls. I have finished Hell to Pay for what that's worth.

 

[CapnClever]

8 minutes ago, Jaws In Space said:

Memenot Mori still probably doesn't predate TNT: Evilution. MM came out sometime between November 24, 1995 & December 15, 1995

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/deathmatch/s-u/unlag5

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/deathmatch/deathtag/hex_tag

The Innocent Crew (TiC) isn't credited with Memento Mori: they're just called "The Memento Mori Crew" (see MMHELP.TXT), which is probably why unlag5 doesn't count it among TiC's works. Memento Mori II is similarly by "MM2 Crew" (see MM2.TXT). If you take a look at anything TiC made, they're clearly authored as such, even when it's just one member. In fact, here's their website where MM1/MM2/Requiem are labeled under "stuff where TiC contributed", so even many years later they don't consider it theirs.

 

Even then, your timeline doesn't explain the 1995/01/11 timestamp on MMMUS.WAD, unless you're suggesting they had the music finalized at least 11 months before the maps. That's like forever in pre-Quake months! I'm still betting somewhere in the first half of 1995. For the record, DoomWiki explains the error with regards to the Top 100 list, though there's no source.

 

And as for TNT, what I linked to earlier and also this confirm Evilution as having been ready around late October. But I mean, we're trying to pinpoint dates for a hypothetical timeline anyway. Who knows when Icarus would've come out if Evilution had been released sans Final Doom? A lot of people say it seems rushed, a consequence of Evilution's delay and angry posters.

 

Anywho, I apologize for getting us so off-topic with such a trivial matter.

[Jaws In Space]

6 minutes ago, CapnClever said:

The Innocent Crew (TiC) isn't credited with Memento Mori: they're just called "The Memento Mori Crew" (see MMHELP.TXT), which is probably why unlag5 doesn't count it among TiC's works. Memento Mori II is similarly by "MM2 Crew" (see MM2.TXT). If you take a look at anything TiC made, they're clearly authored as such, even when it's just one member. In fact, here's their website where MM1/MM2/Requiem are labeled under "stuff where TiC contributed", so even many years later they don't consider it theirs.

 

Even then, your timeline doesn't explain the 1995/01/11 timestamp on MMMUS.WAD, unless you're suggesting they had the music finalized at least 11 months before the maps. That's like forever in pre-Quake months! I'm still betting somewhere in the first half of 1995. For the record, DoomWiki explains the error with regards to the Top 100 list, though there's no source.

Here's a quote from Denis Moeller of TIC dated November 11, 1995. Not only does this continue to confirm the late 1995 date, but it also confirms that TIC was at least partly in charge of Memento Mori.

       Moderator of the upcoming Mega-WAD: Memento Mori, check
       this one out: www.geopages.com/Hollywood/2299/mm.html

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/deathmatch/p-r/pobla3

 

Also I'm going to call out timestamps as a very unreliable date to go by. For example there are 11 wads contained in Maximum Doom with timestamps from the 1980's. Maybe the midi's were done in January 1995, maybe they weren't. All I know is that there is a lot of evidence that points to Memento Mori being completed near the end of November 1995.

[Da Werecat]

I heard that id forced the team to cut on the detail at some point, and some other changes were made as well. I wonder if some pre-id prototype still exists.

 

I'm especially curious about the presence of the dreadful new textures, i.e. whether their amount changed in any way during the development. Someone had to notice how ridiculously bad they were. And for the first two thirds of the wad they're almost nowhere to be found. Which only makes the first Drake O'Brien map all the more excruciating.

[CapnClever]

The POBLA3.TXT is stronger evidence than the MMMUS.WAD timestamp. Having found nothing further to sway one way or the other (save a comment from kxmxeii that may or may not be firsthand) I concede the point: looks like Evilution probably would've been the first 32-level megawad.

 

On the other hand, I haven't heard Memento Mori be glorified as the first 32-level megawad anyway, just as one among the first and as a major community project. I don't know if Evilution holding this title would've mattered all that much, though TeamTNT was a lot more vocal about their releases. (By the way, I forgot to mention H2H-XMAS.WAD, another early megawad that came out December 18 1995, which had the courtesy of adding its freaking release date in the README.)

 

---

 

To try and bring this thread back on-topic, I'll add my two cents actually talking about what I think of Evilution's level design, rather than handwaving it as undeserving of its fame. In examining the flow and layout, the mappers generally seemed more concerned with using the new textures given to them in interesting and meaningful ways in order to provide players a sense of fascination and wonder, rather than "constructing a map" as it were. There are plenty of setpieces to go around and certainly enough maps that are also fun to play through (I would disagree with the OP that Stronghold is a weak map in this regard), but it doesn't strike me as the focal point of the project. TeamTNT really wanted to make something that would stand out beyond Doom, I think, and to an extent they probably inspired at least a few mappers through Evilution alone to complement Doom's artistic assets rather than replacing them entirely (like Batman Doom).

 

Unfortunately, the gameplay is lacking, especially when compared to its Final Doom sibling. It's hard to fault Evilution during such an early period of Doom mapping and, if anything, Plutonia was a masterstroke by the Casali brothers to intentionally aim for a craftily-difficult mapset: over the years players got better at the game and eventually grew to love the challenges available as early as 1996. I imagine most mappers were more attuned to the likes of Heretic, which favored architecture over combat.

[Grain of Salt]

I played TNT in 1998 and I distinctly remember finding it ugly and tiresome at times, so can we drop the whole "you're spoiled by modern wads" thing, maybe?

 

TNT has its good points. Some maps are quite immersive. It has original ideas. Some maps have good gameplay. But with the best will in the world, it's about 70% uninteresting fluff.

[Jaws In Space]

Dang it I I'm having trouble quoting from 2 different pages. On the previous page you said:

Quote

I would argue that TNT: Evilution is remembered primarily because it's an IWAD: nothing more, nothing less.

38 minutes ago, CapnClever said:

On the other hand, I haven't heard Memento Mori be glorified as the first 32-level megawad anyway, just as one among the first and as a major community project. I don't know if Evilution holding this title would've mattered all that much, though TeamTNT was a lot more vocal about their releases.

It's hard to say whether being the first Doom 2 community project made a difference for Memento Mori's longevity or not. If you look below at this list of Megawads that I've made going from the earliest days all the way to when Final Doom came out there is a pretty good chance that for the majority of people Memento Mori, Plutonia, & Evilution are the only ones that are fondly remembered. There are quite a lot more random compilation Megawads contained on the shovelware CD's too, none of which are well remembered either.

 

Are those 3 Megawads really better than these other 11? It's really all a matter of preference from person to person, but you do have to ask yourself why those three & not the others? I've only had the chance to play 6 of these 14 of these Megawads, & I will say from my own perspective MM, TNT, & Plutonia are all better than H2H-Xmas, Icarus, & Big Crappy Shit Megawad. In fact I find it hard to believe that people would remember H2H-Xmas at all if it weren't for it appearing on the top 100 wads of all time.

 

Y/M/D

1994-04-14 JyEpiBest DOOM 2 (Random compilation of WADs)

1994-11-27 NJ Doom DOOM (Solo)

1994-??-?? 32 DOOM 2 (Solo)

 

1995-04-15 ILLUSORY DOOM (Unclear if community project or random Compilation)

1995-11-19 Heroes DOOM (Random compilation of WADs)

1995-11-20 Cleimos II DOOM 2 (Dual author)

1995-12-?? Memento Mori Doom 2 (Community Project)

1995-12-18 H2H-Xmas DOOM 2 (Random compilation of WADs)

 

1996-01-xx JOW: Jason Wainman's 30 Levels of Doom II DOOM 2 (Solo)
1996-02-28 Heroes 2 DOOM 2 (Random compilation of WADs)
1996-03-21 Icarus: Alien Vanguard DOOM 2 (Community Project)
1996-04-04 Big Crappy Shit Megawad DOOM 2 (Solo)
1996-06-17 TNT Evilution DOOM 2 (Community Project)
1996-06-17 The Plutonia Experiment DOOM 2 (Dual author)

 

For the OP I've never felt that it's really fair to compare Evilution to Plutonia, the wads are of completely different styles, the only reason people do compare them is because they're bundled together in Final Doom. I mean you don't see people comparing the maps of Nova 2 against Sunlust, both are good wads in their own right & not everyone likes both, but if you compare these two wads to each other Nova 2 looks pretty bad. For Evilution & Plutonia I find that most people like only one of these wads, hardly ever liking both. If you like the gameplay & style of Plutonia, there really isn't much for you to like in Evilution, & probably not much at all for you to enjoy in the early megawads until Memento Mori 2.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

A lot of maps feel like someone did the layout then said blast it just release it let's go detail plutonia or something. 

[Jon]

I rarely return to either TNT or Plutonia these days, but I prefer TNT from a gameplay POV. I remember it has some nice ideas (the time travel gimmick somewhere in the first episode for instance) and generally suited my play style. Obviously Plutonia is intended to be the bastard that it is, but I really never engaged with that. I think I usually ended up CLEVing around the later slots to have a peek; I don't think I ever played beyond maybe 10 levels legit. This is just a personal take, though, on my own preferences.  I'm coming to a late realisation that my tastes are closer aligned with walking simulators than things like Plutonia or the various slaughtermap megawads.

 

Despite that, though, if I was going to play or replay a megawad at the moment (and I rarely play anything anymore due to other commitments), TNT wouldn't be anywhere near the top of my list. There's too many classics I'd like to would play again (Ancient Aliens, Aliens TC, Batman Doom), only half-played (Dystopia 3, Momento Mori, Requiem), or I've never played (Eternity/Serenity/etc, Kama Sutra, Icarus, Daedelus, your next big MegaWAD project here!)

 

[KVELLER]

I just wanted to mention that I really love Doom maps (and other games) that focus on atmosphere and exploration, but I still prefer Plutonia over Evilution. While it has its moments, it doesn't seem to do anything right for too long IMO.

[Cipher]

A little bump now that I'm further along:

 

Levels 15-19 (including the two secret levels) are a fun stretch after the nadir of levels 8-14, with an exception for maybe level 10. All of a sudden it feels like the authors started thinking about specific encounters again.

 

I think I'm finding that -- to make the arbitrary iwad comparison, since it is one for better or worse -- I like its better levels more than anything in Doom II, but I like its worst levels substantially less. It's definitely the least consistent of the iwads. (That might be due to the community-project-style development people have noted above, but what I hold to be the flaws have also been strangely consistent.)

 

Either way, it does feel like large portions of the wad were designed architecture first, things second, and that's somewhat hard for me to abide. It's also unique among the iwads that way. (Romero championed his "iterative gameplay" design; Petersen's levels can be gimmicky, but are always designed around the type of gameplay he wants, even in levels like "Downtown and Suburbs" where loosely representational architecture is the gimmick; and the Casali brothers were almost certainly designing level layouts around the encounters and traps they planned.)

Edited September 24, 2017 by Cipher

[Cipher]

One more Evilution diary bump:

 

Now up to level 28. Hole E. Shit, episode three is terrible. I'd heard it was the worst part of the game coming in, but I wasn't ready. "Central Processing"-"Mt. Pain" is such a slog. I can't believe the number of times I found myself asking, "How could anyone find this fun?" So much backtracking, so many caverns (why oh why), so much more arbitrary hitscanner placement. Dying in these levels is painful, because early portions are so tedious and dull. (A random Chaingunner teleporting in behind you after you've gotten to the outdoor area of "Administration Center"? Have fun!). I swear the aesthetics become more amateurish as well for a stretch of levels in there, probably as a result of the community-project nature of the game.

 

I actually rewatched the second half of the "Evolution of the WAD" episode on Evilution after playing these, and one of the guests said something I thought was particularly astute: "It's like they wanted to make these levels hard, but they didn't really know how." That's ... exactly what it feels like. Make levels long, make them backtracking-heavy, fill rooms and hallways with hitscanners. Again, I have no idea how Plutonia gets the "hitscanner hell" rap over Evilution, except that its placement is more thoughtful and therein maybe more memorable. But in Evilution, Chaingunners, Shotgunners, and even basic Zombiemen (!) are milling around wide-open rooms from the first level until the last few, because for some reason the designers seem consistently allergic to designing encounters around higher-tier monsters.

 

I've heard good things about levels 28 and 29, and 28 is a Milo Casali level, so it's probably smooth sailing from here on out.

 

Standouts so far:

The first three levels ("Wormhole" is cool, but I can't get over the fact that it doesn't reward you for exploring its second half at all, especially for continuous play)

Prison

Redemption

Storage Facility

Nukage Processing

The Dead Zone (really fun!)

Pharoah

Caribbean (really fun!)

Mill

Shipping/Respawning

 

Though a lot of those are just decently fun or have gameplay that doesn't interrupt the setpiece design team TNT seemed to be interested in.

 

Can't stand:

Metal

Stronghold

Steel Works

Central Processing

Administration Center

Habitat

Baron's Den

Ballistyx

 

And "Lunar Mining Project" and "Quarry" both feel more aggravating than they are, because they're two more unremarkable backtracking + dark cavern levels sandwiched into a bunch of them for absolutely no reason I can fathom. Not godawful, but I can't imagine who could possibly find them fun, and that makes that stretch of levels feel like an absolute chore.

 

EDIT -- Sorry if TNT is your favorite wad. This came out as a bit more of a rant than I'd intended. It just really doesn't do it for me as a gameplay-first player.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Cipher

[Koko Ricky]

"Lunar Mining Project" is fucking terrifying on the PS1.

[galileo31dos01]

Dark caverns are common in 90's and old-school style wads. If you happen to play (or have already played) Memento Mori and Alien Vendetta, expect to be immersed into darkness and caves very often.

 

It actually surprises me that you've found yourself backtracking in Lunar Mining Project and Quarry, given that both are very short levels. When I think of heavy backtracking in TNT, the first two maps that come to my mind are Central Processing (which happens to be one of my favourite maps, when you already know where to go) and Mount Pain, this is indeed one of the most polemic maps in the iwad. Some of the maps you mentioned as standouts do feature backtracking, like Pharaoh and Redemption. Obviously experiences between players vary, so I would assume your dislike towards LMP and Quarry are inclined to hitscanners.

 

34 minutes ago, Cipher said:

I have no idea how Plutonia gets the "hitscanner hell" rap over Evilution, except that its placement is more thoughtful and therein maybe more memorable.

Well, "chaingunner hell" I would say, as I remember cursing Plutonia mainly for the chaingunners, when I played it last summer. Also some arguable archviles here and there. I don't know what others think about this topic.

[Da Werecat]

I was certainly terrified of the author's knowledge of physics. Must be how light works in hell - in a twisted, unnatural way.

[leodoom85]

22 minutes ago, GoatLord said:

"Lunar Mining Project" is fucking terrifying on the PS1.

And Ballistyx is really atmospheric as well as Deepest Reaches (aside for the red door that the developers forgot in that version)...

[Cipher]

1 hour ago, galileo31dos01 said:

Dark caverns are common in 90's and old-school style wads. If you happen to play (or have already played) Memento Mori and Alien Vendetta, expect to be immersed into darkness and caves very often.

Haven't played either yet. Vendetta's on the list sometime after finish Scythe and Plutonia 2. I've heard relatively good things about its caverns, for what it's worth. 

 

I've played the four-level "Phobos" wad from the '90s, and it doesn't get much more dark-caverny than that. I can take them in small doses, or when there's good stuff surrounding them, though I still don't think they're ever super good for gameplay.

 

I think it's notable that, as far as I recall, Plutonia doesn't feature a single one.

 

 

Quote

It actually surprises me that you've found yourself backtracking in Lunar Mining Project and Quarry, given that both are very short levels. When I think of heavy backtracking in TNT, the first two maps that come to my mind are Central Processing (which happens to be one of my favourite maps, when you already know where to go) and Mount Pain, this is indeed one of the most polemic maps in the iwad. Some of the maps you mentioned as standouts do feature backtracking, like Pharaoh and Redemption. Obviously experiences between players vary, so I would assume your dislike towards LMP and Quarry are inclined to hitscanners.

I guess they're not that backtracking-heavy; it probably just felt that way because of the amount of tunnel-crawling you do. I played 20-27 in two long sessions, so those levels probably blur a bit in my mind. 

 

"Pharoah" definitely has backtracking, but it's punctuated by relatively well-constructed encounters, so that's probably why it doesn't feel as tedious. (Though it's also why I prefer "Caribbean." It's not a level I love; just one that comes out feeling better than most of TNT.) The worst one for me in that regard was definitely "Ballistyx," with its multiple back-and-forths through long hallways to retrieve and use keys from opposite sides of the map, without many distinct encounters in between.

 

 

Quote

Well, "chaingunner hell" I would say, as I remember cursing Plutonia mainly for the chaingunners, when I played it last summer. Also some arguable archviles here and there. I don't know what others think about this topic.

I think it comes down to a difference in placement.

 

Plutonia's version of "Chaingunner hell" mostly has them positioned as turrets and traps in very specific ways, with consistent strategies to get around them. Targeted cruelty.

 

Evilution's version just has them walking around huge rooms, teleporting in at random moments, etc. It's a lot less designed and consistent, and coupled with all its other wandering hitscanners and huge levels, that can feel more frustrating. It was certainly more frustrating to die to.

 

At least that's my take. I guess I can see someone preferring things the other way around. I need to remind myself there are people who genuinely like incidental combat. Then again, I don't think I hate it when it's done differently, as I like most levels in the original Doom and Doom 64 quite a bit.

 

Re: Above: "Deepest Reaches" is a level I found both atmospheric and pretty fun. It definitely never felt boring.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Cipher