The future of Doom...

[Koko Ricky]

The 1997 release of the source code was probably the single most important event in Classic Doom history. There was already a strong modding scene at the time, but it really exploded after that. It opened up all sorts of new possibilities, but more importantly it made Doom playable on any future operating system or platform, which drastically amplified its accessibility. And of course, all the new features/removal of restrictions gave modders lots of new toys to play with. If id hadn't been generous enough to do this, and if they hadn't had the foresight to make it easy to tinker with the game, then there would definitely be no more than a microcosm of a community at this point; it would be the kind of ghost town you see with the Blood modding community. And that's a damn shame because, if I can get a bit tangential, this forum alone is proof that there is a crowd that wants new Blood content.

[Graf Zahl]

On 9/13/2017 at 8:59 PM, Maes said:

"trusted computing" issues.

 

I think if these actually get implemented it will make such operating systems entirely undigestable for the geeks. Apple is already on a good way to doing this and I have seen many people defecting over the last two years. And I'll never expect Linux to succumb to that disease

[Cipher]

3 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

I think if these actually get implemented it will make such operating systems entirely undigestable for the geeks. Apple is already on a good way to doing this and I have seen many people defecting over the last two years. And I'll never expect Linux to succumb to that disease

I don't think that's even a strictly geek issue. (I like old games, and I know enough to get a computer to run what I need, but I'm as far away from a Linux user as you could get.) People don't like finding out programs are incompatible. Non-geeks enjoy out-of-the-box systems until they stop a harmless download or install.

[Maes]

22 hours ago, Mr. Trotl said:

Sometimes i think, where doom will be today if carmack decide to not share the sourcecode of doom.

18 hours ago, jerk-o said:

Probably forgotten.  Not sure doom 3 would have been made if people weren't playing sourceports.

Maybe there would have been a reasonably close recreation in a different engine, assuming that the same goals (limit removing, compatibility with existing mods including DEH patches etc.) would have been pursued. Maybe some nuances of gameplay would have been lost or recreated correctly only after a LOT of trial & error/years, or 100% "bug compatible" ports a-la Chocolate Doom wouldn't exist. Demo compatibility would also be questionable.

 

But then again, if you think about it, modern source ports like GZDoom have -by now- so little in common with the original source code that they might just as well have evolved from a completely different engine.

[Maes]

7 minutes ago, Cipher said:

I don't think that's even a strictly geek issue. (I like old games, and I know enough to get a computer to run what I need, but I'm as far away from a Linux user as you could get.) People don't like finding out programs are incompatible. Non-geeks enjoy out-of-the-box systems until they stop a harmless download or install.

AFAIK, not 100% of iPhone users jailbreak theirs...besides, such consumers (it's pointless talking about users, at this point) will promptly upgrade to the NEXT and ENCHANCED version ASAP, so the issue of compatibility is quickly forgotten/swept under the carpet. Those that you mention, which will be left with a bitter aftertaste after realizing how crippled their new toy is, are a minority of geeks, which are obviously not the target group for these platforms anyway.

 

Developers are a different case. Some might get fed up and jump boat, as Graf said, but most simply find the workings and monetization of the app store lucrative enough to offset any perceived "shackling" of their creativity. Hey, after all, you can make a few thousand quick bucks by making an app that just shows a shiny ruby, so screw the OS not being 1337 or whatever ;-)

[Graf Zahl]

Doom's binary code was relatively easy to analyze. I guess by now some reverse engineering would have happened. Remember, Doom predates heavily optimized machine code by many years.

 

Regarding modern ports, you are exaggerating. Most of the gameplay logic is still the same old code, and even where it is not, all the proceedings are dictated by what came first.

 

[Cipher]

21 minutes ago, Maes said:

AFAIK, not 100% of iPhone users jailbreak theirs...besides, such consumers (it's pointless talking about users, at this point) will promptly upgrade to the NEXT and ENCHANCED version ASAP, so the issue of compatibility is quickly forgotten/swept under the carpet. Those that you mention, which will be left with a bitter aftertaste after realizing how crippled their new toy is, are a minority of geeks, which are obviously not the target group for these platforms anyway.

I'm guilty of never having jailbroken an iPhone, but my iPhone also isn't my PC.

 

Idk; maybe we will see the dreaded iOS table-only future laid out here. But coming from my non-computer-geek perspective, it still feels hyperbolic. Also, most people I know don't update immediately. Mac users I know still occasionally curse the system for non-compatibility and find work-arounds. Maybe grandma would never get frustrated with a completely locked-in system, but most people under 30 I know absolutely would, outside of a toy like a tablet or phone. I don't know anyone who doesn't at least have a laptop in addition to those. I can't imagine it's quite the consumer-pleasing tactic laid out here, at least not to the degree that it will ever require a heavy amount of specialized knowledge to use a computer to play old video-games.

[Endless]

On 11/9/2017 at 3:25 AM, Mr. Trotl said:

like me. Doom is love, Doom is life

Doom is Old, Doom is New

Doom is All, Doom is You.

[DiluteKoh]

16 years ago, when I first discovered Doomworld, I was surprised THEN that the community was as strong as it was. It's still going, I mean I popped into #zdoom, and was surprised that yep, the same ol cast of characters are still there. I honestly believe, if things less mod friendly like NES gaming and the likes are still as popular and going strong, Doom is NOT going anywhere. Actually, I see Doom being referenced in the past 10 or so years in mainstream culture, far more than I ever did back in the day, and even then I saw it a lot. 

The game is almost as immortal as Hellenistic philosophy and literature. Actually at this point, it may as well be a memetic virus, being ported to everything and anything that is capable of computing on any level.

[Maes]

2 hours ago, DiluteKoh said:

The game is almost as immortal as Hellenistic philosophy and literature. Actually at this point, it may as well be a memetic virus, being ported to everything and anything that is capable of computing on any level.

The difference being that while it takes little effort to port Linux Doom v1.10 to anything that can run it, it's quite more involved to make a source port that will actually be player and mod friendly. If it "runs" (aka "executes") on a platform X, but is limited by controls (e.g. touchscreens or gamepads), inability to save/load games or to load PWAD files, will it still be playable at the levels that the community has elevated it?

[DiluteKoh]

3 hours ago, Maes said:

The difference being that while it takes little effort to port Linux Doom v1.10 to anything that can run it, it's quite more involved to make a source port that will actually be player and mod friendly. If it "runs" (aka "executes") on a platform X, but is limited by controls (e.g. touchscreens or gamepads), inability to save/load games or to load PWAD files, will it still be playable at the levels that the community has elevated it?

Well obviously not. Then again it really depends, I think only time itself could answer that one. Personally I know jack about coding, and if you want my honest opinion the very fact that you can make a computer do things by typing words into strings and making executables is like some kind of black magic to me.

[Maes]

16 minutes ago, DiluteKoh said:

Well obviously not. Then again it really depends, I think only time itself could answer that one. Personally I know jack about coding, and if you want my honest opinion the very fact that you can make a computer do things by typing words into strings and making executables is like some kind of black magic to me.

Take for example the Doom Classic included in Doom 3: BFG Edition. Released in 2012, it was pretty much the only official source port of Doom for over a decade (more like 15 years, after Doom 64 in 1997), and yet, it was little more than a rehashed Linux Doom v1.10 with some vanilla limits increased, but with the inability to load PWADs or record/play back demos (well, technically it still could, under the hood, but if users have a way to access these functions, I still don't know), and negating all of the (by 2012) 15 years worth of progress made by third-party source ports. They pretty much re-warmed the very same Doom from 19 years ago (1993), slapped in in a fancy box, and said "Well, here's Classic Doom in all (?) of its glory, enjoy".

 

Certainly a bit underwhelming, to say the least. Would you trust this particular version of Doom to carry the torch into the future? Or the DOSBOX version from GoG/Steam? And yet, if "trusted computing" models prevail in the future, this (or something very similar to this) might be all that future gamers get.

[FragrantGingerCalamari]

On 9/11/2017 at 9:16 AM, Da Werecat said:

~~snip~~ another similar port will come into the spotlight. ~~snip~~

QZDoom?

[MajorRawne]

I still remember Doom Legacy split-screen multiplayer. Oh, and those super-impressive megawads which never appeared. Wasn't one called Hell something-or-other and the first level was a prison colony? Those screenshots were objects of lust and devotion until they ended up releasing the unfinished megawad. (Do people still say megawad these days?) And then there was Doom Millennium or Doom 2000 or something? Equally coveted, equally unfinished? Ooh, and Mordeth, which everyone used to talk about but which, IIRC, was a house in a swamp.

 

Doom Builder 2 is no more? What do people use to map these days then?

 

If Doom was going to go away any time soon then it would have already happened. Doomworld seems to still be going as strong as ever, most of the old guard are still here and it seems there are new gold-standard megawads like Valiant. Doom hasn't died at all, it's evolved.

[Empyre]

5 hours ago, MajorRawne said:

Doom Builder 2 is no more? What do people use to map these days then?

 

GZDoomBuilder-Bugfix

- and/or -

 

[MajorRawne]

Thank you for those links. The Doom Community has changed a lot over the last two years! Pretty much for the better though, by the looks of things.

 

Potential tard question here, but which of those two are the best for making PSX style maps? Can you implement coloured lighting easily?

[scifista42]

Colored lighting is all about editing sector properties or placing things, both of which are equally easy in both editors as well as most other editors.

[Graf Zahl]

On 9/20/2017 at 11:55 AM, Maes said:

 And yet, if "trusted computing" models prevail in the future, this (or something very similar to this) might be all that future gamers get.

 

Can you please stop this nonsense? It's pure FUD and not practicable. Trusted computing won't have a chance because it very much negates the purpose of a computer. It's something that works on smartphones to a certain degree because of their limited usability but try to do this to machines that are supposed to perform real work and the entire thing will easily become nothing more than a giant smokescreen put up by interested parties.

 

 

[Koko Ricky]

3 hours ago, MajorRawne said:

Thank you for those links. The Doom Community has changed a lot over the last two years! Pretty much for the better though, by the looks of things.

 

Potential tard question here, but which of those two are the best for making PSX style maps? Can you implement coloured lighting easily?

Doom Builder 2's UDMF mode makes sector lighting extremely easy to implement although you can't see it in the preview.

[dantos_the_mutulator]

i think that if us as the community we stick together, it will stay alive.

[Reisal]

On 9/11/2017 at 2:15 AM, AsianMammoth said:

GZDoom Builder

 

GZDoom Builder Bugfix.

[Edward850]

6 minutes ago, Glaice said:

 

GZDoom Builder Bugfix.

Doom Builder X

[Reisal]

5 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Doom Builder X

 

I didn't know there was a DB2 fork other than GZDB and GZDB Bugfix.