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Flareblood_V2

Why are slaughter maps looked down upon?

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11 minutes ago, galileo31dos01 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one-shotting a cyber a rare possible ZDoom-ism? 

I don't think so. The theoretical max damage a BFG can do is 4280, and a cyberdemon has 4000 HP. But, due to the nature of Doom's RNG, this cannot actually happen. I don't know what the actual max is, though, or even if there is a way to know -- it might be entirely situational.

 

If we knew that there were exactly n calls to p_random() between each damage calculation for the BFG, then we could just determine all 256 possible outcomes by choosing each entry as the first one. But that's assuming there is a fixed number n, which I'm not certain about... @Graf Zahl would know.

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3 minutes ago, loveless said:

See why I like jrpg's?  Stories with depth, detailed worlds, and great music.  What do we get in Doom? A guy that looks left to right sometimes, badly tiled brick walls, and d_runnin.

Slaughter maps are like JRPGs like Dragon Quest and some FF, hard as hell...but back to the topic. Sorry...

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7 minutes ago, 42PercentHealth said:

I don't think so. The theoretical max damage a BFG can do is 4280, and a cyberdemon has 4000 HP. But, due to the nature of Doom's RNG, this cannot actually happen. I don't know what the actual max is, though, or even if there is a way to know -- it might be entirely situational.

 

If we knew that there were exactly n calls to p_random() between each damage calculation for the BFG, then we could just determine all 256 possible outcomes by choosing each entry as the first one. But that's assuming there is a fixed number n, which I'm not certain about... @Graf Zahl would know.

ZDoom's RNG is truly random, unlike the vanilla RNG.

 

The max vanilla damage is 3,580, if I've done my math right.

 

EDIT: Also, the theoretical max with a truly random RNG is 5,920.

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4 minutes ago, Cynical said:

ZDoom's RNG is truly random, unlike the vanilla RNG.

 

The max vanilla damage is 3,580, if I've done my math right.

I'll trust you on it... sounds about right.

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russian overkill is a great mod to get mileage out of slaughtermaps if you're not into 'em

 

it gives you the catharsis of blowing up tons of monsters without having to deal with the tedium of grinding through hordes when you can't figure out the trick to 'em

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Just now, Arctangent said:

russian overkill is a great mod to get mileage out of slaughtermaps if you're not into 'em

 

it gives you the catharsis of blowing up tons of monsters without having to deal with the tedium of grinding through hordes when you can't figure out the trick to 'em

Yeah, RO is basically "setting any map to an easier difficulty"

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I recently got into slaughter maps, I can understand its not everyones cup of tea, Revenant spams are definitely annoying though and the Archvile spawning in the middle of the room reviving everything. Even though Im a beginner and keep getting my ass handed to me, I do find it pretty fun, Ive been a fan of Tatsurdcacocaco for a long time and watching his videos made me wanna do Slaughter maps and such, it looked so fun to do. So I picked it up. Ive been having fun with it but I can see why others wouldnt like it.    

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45 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

Yeah, RO is basically "setting any map to an easier difficulty"

Oh I dunno, the highest difficulty in RO can be pretty unforgiving :P

Then of course there's the mode where everything dies to minimal damage, including the player...

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Wall of text.

 

tl;dr: there is way more to simple circle strafing than meets the eye most of the time. I don't know how else to deal with generalized comments except by using specific examples.

 

Oooooi. This is probably the last post I am ever making in a topic like this. Just like when I used to be part of the L4D2 community.. after you see enough of the same shit over and over from different people you realize there is no point in even contributing.. I never learn I guess.

 

So as was pointed out by MajorRawne there are many slaughtermaps on youtube where circlestrafing is a big part of the gameplay. Yep. Circlestrafing is a big part of slaughter gameplay.. especially in larger maps (large arenas = a lot of cleanup pretty much 100% of the time). This is basically unavoidable. Since you mention demos of over hours in length I assume you are looking at chillax tas runs, holy hell, untitled2 run. Can confirm that you will find ample circlestrafing in these wads. I haven't ran any of those wads however. So I'll mention some runs I have completed in other wads that generally end up with ample circle strafing and why they are actually interesting to me (stuff a casual viewer wont pick up on).

 

Sunder Map11:

I'll discuss two parts of this map which probably look like fuck all circle strafe or standing and doing nothing to the average viewer. First is the 3 switch encounter just prior to the platforming bit.

 

The 3 switch encounter relies on manipulating hordes around the cybs so you get maximum infighting while you do the maximum amount of dps. The average viewer will watch me aggro some revs, run by some more revs/cyb, hit a switch, then end up in quite a large open area in comparison to the rest and sit in a specific spot while looking at a cyb with more revs while spamming rockets. I am spamming rockets from a specific spot in order to make sure that the cyb I started the infight with from earlier sits as close as possible to all of the revs for the longest period of time. After doing this for a bit I end up cleaning up the cyb and revs in the area I am currently in with bfg. Notice that basically everything else it dead. This is all planned before hand. Sure. The player could just run around in circles forever but then again that is just another way (very inefficient way) of beating the slaughter encounter.

 

Next is the final large fight in the green area because this fight im sure looks like nothing but mindless circle strafe. And you are right for the most part. However there is still strategy at work here managing the horde. There are tons of viles that eventually spawn in the center structure which the player has to deal with if the player is going to max the map. So the obvious idea here is to keep all of the monsters out of that area. The previous demos end up with monsters in that central area. Their strategies for circle strafe were bad because they ended up with crap in an area where it makes life farm more difficult than normal. I modified the strafing pattern which keeps monsters out of that area 100% of the time allowing for easy gibbage of the viles. So yeah.. there is circle strafing but it has a purpose. You still have to deal with the boss monsters here after most of the shit dies. I have never been fucked royally by masterminds as many times as during this fight. So in that way this fight is very significant to me.

 

Stardate 20x7 Map09:

The two final parts are basically the only bits where you will see circle strafing and bfg spam. I don't want to go into insane specifics on my routes in the two final fights because they are insanely choreographed. I don't know why I am picking this map because it is so difficult for me to break this shit down in a timely fashion.

 

2nd to last fight relies on dealing with a massive rev horde while avoiding mass HKs and mass area denial viles. This fight devolves into circle strafe just like every other massive slaughter fight but only after you deal with loads of shit requiring very specific movements in order to pull off consistently. If you watch my demo nothing you see is random in this fight. Anyways the fight begins.. you will see me run around a set of pillars twice after initially running by the revs after the huge wall lowers. This is to setup the timing for when I start attacking with bfg. Fighting the revs on the right side of the arena requires an interesting movement pattern I devised in order to deal the max dps while still avoiding HK fireballs (you really can't afford to waste megas on this fight because the more megas used outside of the plan = vast rng added to fight = incredibly low % of completion). After that you cut by the revs on the other side. This is where you need to pay attention to what the viles are doing. If you get targeted you either need to hide behind pillars or rush over by the wall you see me stand by. If you get knocked up the steps to far at any time during this stage it is game over because you release 10+ AVs. So while dealing with this AV shit you also are running into the rev horde in order to pick up more hp while maximizing dps. You run back around the way you came and sit where the initial bfg barrage began at the start careful not to waste too much bfg ammo here because at this point you will most likely be low (not circlestrafing yet.. you are still having to deal with the horde in a specific way here unless you want to die). You sit in this spot and slowly move towards the rear of the arena. This pulls the revs towards you so you can get enough space to run back around the way you just came from again (still not circlestrafing). Finally after completing this final rush back to the other side you are able to start circle strafing in the fight (you can still die from AVs). This shit took quite a bit of practice in order to get down consistently. And it is funny how this fight even caused someone to claim that it is 'impossible' in the 20x7 thread. So you are welcome to try circle strafing all you want.

 

The final fight.. I'm going to spare the commentary on this one to save my fingers because again nothing I do is random in this fight and the description will end up even fucking longer than the previous. One notable thing that I find fun about this fight though is that I 100% always use the automap during this fight. There are two necessary ammo/hp stashes in specific areas. Because the arena is perfectly symmetrical I need to be sure of my location in the arena. So this fight will always be unique in comparison to other things I have ran because I have to use the automap while avoiding shit in order to be sure of my next move.

 

I'll be glad to get even more specific on pretty much every other map I have ran or played btw. I assume that you havent ever played any slaughtermaps because you were asking for people to name slaughter maps that dont have bfg in them (lol). At least you proved to be the poster child for my post a few pages back regarding people generalizing things about slaughter when they know absolutely nothing about the subject matter.

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@Agentbromsnor

As was mentioned in my previous post and the one I just made. It is unavoidable. And a problem in some I think. Don't troll me.

 

The point is to show to the people who don't play slaughtermaps that there is underlying strategy to circlestrafe.

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1 minute ago, Killer5 said:

@Agentbromsnor

As was mentioned in my previous post and the one I just made. It is unavoidable. And a problem in some I think. Don't troll me.

 

The point is to show to the people who don't play slaughtermaps that there is underlying strategy to circlestrafe.

I'm just stating this because throughout this thread, slaughter-fans jump to the rescue with the one argument that not all slaughter-maps are only about circle-strafing and infighting. Of course not every slaughter-map is going to be *exactly* the same in practise, but it's still a common element in most of them and that makes it a legitimate complaint.

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Lol this is the best. Now it is no longer #NOTALLSLAUGHTERMAPS but now #NOTMOSTSLAUGHTERMAPS. At least we are making progress.

 

Also your statement 'legitimate complaint' is subjective.

 

Okuplok, one of the most famous and infamous runners loved this type of gameplay. Just check out the post for his map:

 

Don't like the gameplay dont play it. He obviously liked it.. enough to make a whole map dedicated to it.

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3 minutes ago, Killer5 said:

Lol this is the best. Now it is no longer #NOTALLSLAUGHTERMAPS but now #NOTMOSTSLAUGHTERMAPS. At least we are making progress.

This is your argument, not mine. I was providing a summation of your post.

 

Also your statement 'legitimate complaint' is subjective.

Are you saying circlestrafing and infighting is *not* a common element in slaughter-maps then?

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As godawful as this thread is, maybe it was a good thing if it eventually lead to me being able to read Killer5's musings on sd20x7 map09 (which I would tentatively suggest is the quintessential Ribbiks map).

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@Agentbromsnor

You provided a summation of my post.. which completely missed the point entirely. But I have been down this road before in the L4D2 community. I know when to leave. Regardless my goal is to disprove false generalizations and misunderstandings. I feel like I have done that.

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what makes me laugh is the number of absolutely shite 'iwad style' maps (for lack of a better word) consisting of low monster numbers, endless corridors and square rooms, and rampant SSG abuse (just check out Maximum Doom e.g.) but these never get threads saying 'why are these maps so shit?' 😠

in fact id argue (completely without evidence of course :D ) that the proportion of good->bad slaughtermaps is much better than the proportion within 'traditional' mapping.

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1 minute ago, Agentbromsnor said:

most of them

I wonder how you can make claims about 'most' slaughtermaps when you are familiar (in a very loose sense) with such a low proportion of them. Same goes for Major Rawne.

 

And this isn't the first time you've been on this side of a heated debate on the subject, on the opposite side of a bunch of posters who actually know what they are talking about. Maybe you'll be right in another five years. I doubt it, though. 

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just to add to my comment above (because im bored) - the most annoying thing is the completely oblivious nature of most 'slaughtermap' haters to how annoying and pointless they are. slaughtermap fans dont come into traditional map reviews/forum posts, or post threads on Doomworld saying 'why do people love trad maps? theyre so boring and shit and have no skill requirements; you just have to camp outside the doors and peek around corners lol!' and make sweeping lame generalisations about an entire genre of mapping. if you dont like it, dont play it - there are loads more maps out there for you, slaughtermaps are a small minority of most maps; stop whining.

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17 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

I wonder how you can make claims about 'most' slaughtermaps when you are familiar (in a very loose sense) with such a low proportion of them. Same goes for Major Rawne.

 

And this isn't the first time you've been on this side of a heated debate on the subject, on the opposite side of a bunch of posters who actually know what they are talking about. Maybe you'll be right in another five years. I doubt it, though. 

Or you can just stop acting so salty because not everyone likes your style of maps.

The arguments given for not liking slaughter-maps have not been unreasonable, and as I've said the argument of "not all" doesn't fly. It's also not unreasonable to say that you don't enjoy them when they "pollute" otherwise normal WADs, since they're a strong contrast to "regular" maps and therefore obviously feel strongly out of place.

The only reason I'm bothering to reply in these topics is because it typically turns into a wank-fest of slaughter-fans who pat themselves on the back for enjoying "difficult" maps, and comment how everyone who doesn't like slaughter-maps are just scrubs who are bad at the game.

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i'm gonna post what I had said on my Dimensions review:

 

Quote

one of the reasons I really don't like the slaughtermaps of this kind is just since I always aim to kill everything and get everything as quickly as humanely humanely humanely possible, I'm spending minutes killing cyberdemons on the floors of the maps and it takes up way too much time. and if that isn't much of a problem, in that I can take out the setpiece quickly enough, having to wait for the lock-in to finish lowering or something like that bores me to death. again, spending minutes waiting is a problem. maybe my mindset shouldn't be to rush through everything, but I like that kind of playstyle. it's just all that waiting, man. and the potential tedium of having to face big monsters in a scenario that takes much longer than it already is. now feel free to ignore this, or me.

also if you are gonna make a slaughter mapset, make the first map leave a good impression. Sorry @Killer5, but the first map did not do it well for me.

 

also I'm more of a setpiece slaughter fan myself.

 

also

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Slaughtermaps are fun when theyre good and shit when they're shit just like any other type of Doom wad. I've been enjoying stuff like Drown in Blood for years and in the last few months have found myself playing Phml's maps (the bootleg scummy plagiarized Chillax pack) and Sunder/Sunlust and enjoying all 3. Admittedly I find them a bit of a grind without slightly beefed up weapons, that was the whole reason I made powergun.wad.

 

I understand why people seeking a more traditional Doom challenge don't like them, but I have no idea why the topic is so stupidly polarized as demonstrated by a few in this thread.

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@NuMetalManiak

I make maps I think are fun. Obviously you cant please everyone. I tried to do my best. Thanks for playing.

 

Why are you attacking me specifically out of the blue? Just curious.

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@Doomkid

If I seem hell bent on defending them it is because I am tired of seeing 'slaughterwads are shit' comments. Or these threads that bash something I really enjoy using generalizations. I used to be able to brush these comments aside but my patience ran out.

 

I try to be respectable.. I even have a list recommending not slaughter wads to people that I have enjoyed.. I am starting to see these comments as disrespectful.

 

That is all.

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2 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I understand why people seeking a more traditional Doom challenge don't like them, but I have no idea why the topic is so stupidly polarized as demonstrated by a few in this thread.

like i said above, its because on Doomworld, youtube comments, discord, irc etc. there seems to be a never-ending stream of muppets who insist on saying stuff to the effect of 'slaughtermaps are dumb and easy lol why do people play them, theyre crap and ruining doom' and it gets extremely tiresome, especially when you try and ask them 'why' and they come out with crass generalisations. of course youre going to get a response from that kind of baiting.

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slaughtermaps isn't exactly my cup of tea at all, but i've played a few of them and enjoyed the quite a bit. Speed of Doom has a pretty decent curve from hard but fairly normal gameplay, to massive macro slaughtering grounds, and Scythe 2 just always felt right to me, even though the slaughter bit crops up unexpectedly.

 

ultimately, maps of that mold isn't my preference, but a few of them can be fun to play, and most of the ones i've seen always have gorgeous setpieces and design. i just prefer having gorgeous setpieces and design with a more atmospheric and slower pace myself. 

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@Killer5 Sorry that I wanted to reply yesterday but I didn't have time to write.

 

I don't want to bring up this, but the problem is English is not my first language, and sometimes I can't distinguish who is trolling and who is not, and sometimes I can't fully understand the sentences, so I may make a lot of, you know, out of the place comments because I also have some difficulties in constructing English sentences to express my mind clearly. Therefore I usually avoid debating threads like these, or I may be considered having fault about many things, such as quote the wrong sentence (but I just don't want to quote the whole thing which is very annoying to readers). Yes, this seems stupid, but it's actually my thoughts and many people don't care or don't realize. As I played your maps, watched your videos and talked to you, I really want to know more thoughts from yours.

 

Behind my mind about your bring up with UV Max recording thing is that people usually don't play Doom the "competitive" way, or at least try how to single-segmented a single map (even not from pistol start), so it's really difficult for someone to understand how difficult actually a map is. Even more players only know slaughtermaps by watching, not actually feeling and playing since they can't really understand the strategies behind the video. And yeah, about the pressure thing, if you're a runner, at least for me, when playing long maps, I tend to be nervous and make more mistakes, and I think this is what human is, but playing with S/L totally eliminates this. Also, about TAS, probably I shouldn't talk about it because you can't really have a good position that no one will $h!t on you.

Edited by GarrettChan

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