Why are slaughter maps looked down upon?

[Xaser]

Next up: "Why are slaughter map threads looked down upon?"

[Jaxxoon R]

I do not like when there are many monsters. If I can't stop long enough to feel the environment I'd rather avoid all the monsters than kill a single one. Too much effort, too much time.

[Steve D]

13 minutes ago, Jaxxoon R said:

If I can't stop long enough to feel the environment I'd rather avoid all the monsters than kill a single one.

But what if I let you walk around in a nice arena, take a look at everything, gather up some weapons, let you feel the environment -- and then lock you in and throw 175 monsters at you? Would that be alright?

[Jaxxoon R]

Whether they come now or later, that's still 175 monsters to fight all at once. It's also a common trope that no monsters in an obvious arena = lots of monsters due to arrive, so I'd probably just poke around trying to avoid the trigger if it meant I could still progress. Just always preferred flowing combat/level design over killrooms.

 

I've never really liked hoard combat in any game, things like Dynasty Warriors give me the same sensation that dropping a bunch of marbles or coffee grounds on the floor does. Just a feeling of tedious work to be done.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Jaxxoon R

[Flareblood_V2]

1 hour ago, Xaser said:

Next up: "Why are slaughter map threads looked down upon?"

I mean, you're not wrong.

I probably shouldn't have started this thread.

[galileo31dos01]

Don't worry, it's not the first time a thread turns polemic. 

 

 

[Archi]

Shotgunning baron might take more time than killing 175 monsters in one arena.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

The pistol isn't a shotgun.

[Steve D]

10 minutes ago, Jaxxoon R said:

It's also a common trope that no monsters in an obvious arena = lots of monsters due to arrive, so I'd probably just poke around trying to avoid the trigger if it meant I could still progress.

You can't, I don't give you the option of escaping before the fight starts. Of course, all tropes are common at this point. Traditional maps often go the resource management/attrition approach, especially with health and ammo stress. Then there's monster closets, teleport traps, ledge snipers, all the usual elements. It's not so much the elements themselves but whether they're used in a fun way.

 

The map I'm referring to has probably 3 setpieces but also a lot of flowing combat, which IMO means the ability to go from one area to another expeditiously and still be continuously fighting. I like to call it, "severe incidental combat," which tends to mean high monster density. I guess I just like fighting relatively large numbers of monsters. ;)

 

It's also not easy to make fights with low monster density engaging. I always point to BTSX E1 Map01 as the classic example of how to do that. It's one of my all-time favorite maps, yet it's kind of easy, and even though monster density is low by my standards, the positioning is such that you have to keep turning to engage well-placed threats. But it's also the case that the map's physical beauty and outstanding music create this wonderful melancholy atmosphere, so the map has to be viewed as an artistic whole, since if you took away either the beauty or the music, I might not like it as much.

 

Anyway, I just thought I'd throw these thoughts out. 

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Down time with nothing to shoot isn't bad. It can improve a map in doses.

[Steve D]

@Pegg And you get a lot of downtime in many Ribbiks and Demonologist maps as you wander around before firing off a setpiece encounter.

[Shadow Hog]

I mean, I'm pretty sure even Holy Hell has its brief moments of downtime.

[loveless]

34 minutes ago, Shadow Hog said:

I mean, I'm pretty sure even Holy Hell has its brief moments of downtime.

Holy Hell is mostly downtime, though.  The brief moments of threat are drowned out in clean up.

[baja blast rd.]

Science.

 

 

1 baron, 15 seconds. 175 imps, 11 seconds. 

[Marcaek]

lots of people revealing their power levels itt

[Master O]

8 hours ago, Xaser said:

Next up: "Why are slaughter map threads looked down upon?"

 

Next up: "Why are people who make questions in slaughter map threads like "Why are slaughter map threads looked down upon" looked down upon? ;)

[Da Werecat]

2 hours ago, Master O said:

Next up: "Why are people who make questions in slaughter map threads like "Why are slaughter map threads looked down upon" looked down upon? ;)

Are they though?

[valkiriforce]

Honestly, I can appreciate any map genre as long as it's well done. I think some of the better slaughter WADs don't rely on circlestrafing scenarios and the few that I've played that have those setups have sometimes been fun in a humorous sort of way.

[Deleted_Account]

On 9/20/2017 at 5:42 PM, loveless said:

See why I like jrpg's?  Stories with depth, detailed worlds, and great music.  What do we get in Doom? A guy that looks left to right sometimes, badly tiled brick walls, and d_runnin.

Especially d_runnin.

[Rifle Infantry]

On 9/20/2017 at 7:42 PM, loveless said:

See why I like jrpg's?  Stories with depth, detailed worlds, and great music.  What do we get in Doom? A guy that looks left to right sometimes, badly tiled brick walls, and d_runnin.

I'd take shooting zombies while practicing the manly art of moving your eyes left and right to a poorly made MIDI any day over another generic anime-haired-teen-defeats-satan-with-a-giant-sword-and-also-friendship title.

[Ichor]

16 minutes ago, Rifle Infantry said:

I'd take shooting zombies while practicing the manly art of moving your eyes left and right to a poorly made MIDI any day over another generic anime-haired-teen-defeats-satan-with-a-giant-sword-and-also-friendship title.

Next Doom game:

 

Happy Yummy Doom Z - Tagartsu, an ordinary 15 year old schoolgirl, but a marine in her former life has just discovered a 150 foot long sword in a package that was meant to be delivered to a house down the street. She calls it the Corpsickle of Friendship and uses it to defeat demons using the power of "rub" while a poorly made midi plays in the background.

[loveless]

...what's wrong with anime girls?

[[McD] James]

Some of the best games ever made are JRPGs. And comparing them to first person shooters is inaccurate. 

[Da Werecat]

46 minutes ago, loveless said:

...what's wrong with anime girls?

For starters, some of them only look like girls.

 

I'd hate to live in an anime universe.

[[McD] James]

The world of Fairy Tail would be fun to visit for a little while. 

[Cipher]

Why are JRPGs looked down upon?

[loveless]

2 hours ago, Cipher said:

Why are JRPGs looked down upon?

Not everyone is brave enough to handle 40-60 hours of picking apart a battle system and listening to amazing music, apparently.

[R1ck]

I'll be honest, I didn't like Slaughtermaps (accept for HR and HR2) is I'm suck at it.

5 hours ago, loveless said:

listening to amazing music

man, I love me some Dancing Mad right now :D

Edited September 23, 2017 by R1ck : I love noodles with clear soup

[Optimus]

I realized that I do dislike slaughter maps but only of a certain kind. There is actually a kind of maps that might pass as slaughter maps but some of the examples can still being one of my favorite maps.

 

For example, I was replaying ALien Vendetta and realized, MAP25 is one of my favorites, despite having over 1000 monsters in ultra violence, and these are opening hordes of revenants and such insanity. The reason I like it, besides the great gothic design, is that it's a vast area where it spawns these massive hordes periodically, and also gives you a lot of space to backtrack, find safe positions and clean the map carefully. It's the vastness of space, the fact that you have time to breath, the fairness, the ability to backtrack and take things from afar, and it all comes epic!

 

But then just look the exactly next level MAP26. It's one of these slaughtermaps that somehow the author has to make you run all the time but with unfair bunch of the hardest monsters all the time, Cyberdemons and Spiderbosses, so you just run at another place but there are tens of chaingunners, revenants, archvilles, all over the place, nowhere to go, maybe it's interesting to find a vantage point if possible but every corner will intentionally open a trap or spawn more monsters. I know there is a thing for  making maps that make you run all the time, while others as me prefer even small maps where you explore interesting rooms and corridors with the occasional encounters (something kinda like playing D&D and entering another room where there are 3 Goblins, 2 Orcs and 1 Ogre well positioned and you wonder what's in the next room).

 

So, Map25 is a good example of map with tons of monsters that I love, portions of these monsters and ability to backtrack, starting point not under slaughterfest but quiet first area with few monsters at most, and given the space to move away from danger and take enemies from afar, huge level, epic but fair battles.

 

And Map26 is the kind of slaughtermap I don't enjoy. Usually it ends up in extreme save-spamming, maybe at some point you manage to find a vantage point after a lot of savespamming and frustration, then at least there is space to clear some other ridiculous areas.

 

The secret level of AV, MAP32 is actually an example that is closer to a bad slaughtermap but at least it starts in a secluded room where you go to the corners to avoid projectiles and take out enemies slowly (although it might have been design for a speedrun in the same sense of always being on the run, I know I might be playing Doom or these maps wrong here but whatever). So, it's tedious at first but then you clear up the map and you can take it carefully. But there is a point where you drop in a slow lowering floor in a new crazy area with nowhere to hide, so it starts restricting your space again. I'd like to go back and take things carefully, I know cowardly, but that's how I like it.

 

Anyway, at a recent replay I IDDQDed MAP26 and finished the rest normally, with MAP25 being my most favorite experience. I was frustrated to being forced using cheats.

[Nine Inch Heels]

On 23.9.2017 at 6:39 AM, Optimus said:

For example, I was replaying ALien Vendetta and realized, MAP25 is one of my favorites, despite having over 1000 monsters in ultra violence, and these are opening hordes of revenants and such insanity. The reason I like it, besides the great gothic design, is that it's a vast area where it spawns these massive hordes periodically, and also gives you a lot of space to backtrack, find safe positions and clean the map carefully. It's the vastness of space, the fact that you have time to breath, the fairness, the ability to backtrack and take things from afar, and it all comes epic!

Funny you should mention, because recently someone asked for newbie friendly slaughter WADs and somebody suggested AV for the few +1k maps it has alongside m32. The thing is, though, that these huge maps with lots of real estate aren't exactly slaughter maps, and slaughter is not solely defined by way of monster count, but much rather by way of area to monster ratio, or at least by a distinct likelyhood for people to run out of real estate if nothing is done, among other things.

 

If you provide X monsters as well as a multiple of X worth of real estate for players to move around in then it's not a slaughter fight per se. It may come off as slaughtery, but that still isn't the same thing.

 

What you're putting up on display here, and by no means do I mean to be disrespectful, is exactly what people don't get about slaughter maps. They're not about you playing at your leisure and on your own terms. Slaughtermaps put the monsters in the driver's seat and punish you for not playing according to the map's inherent "rules". That's also why people think slaughter is "unfair", when in fact it is anything but. Just like chess, a slaughter scenario enforces a set of "rules" and priorities which may or may not be easy to understand depending on your expertise and the encounter design in question, but just because you didn't get the punchline it doesn't mean the map is unfair.

 

The argument of fairness is something I'd like to disappear from discussions like this to begin with, because not only is it disrespectful towards the mappers and playtesters who put in a lot of time and effort to make sure these fights play properly, it also implies that people who enjoy slaughter are masochists, and beating these maps is a matter of luck to much larger extent than is the case in reality.

 

On 23.9.2017 at 6:39 AM, Optimus said:

And Map26 is the kind of slaughtermap I don't enjoy. Usually it ends up in extreme save-spamming, maybe at some point you manage to find a vantage point after a lot of savespamming and frustration, then at least there is space to clear some other ridiculous areas.

I didn't want to quote all the other stuff prior to this, so I'll just say that first off, if you don't like these maps, don't play them. Second off, maybe your strategy isn't up to snuff.

 

On 23.9.2017 at 6:39 AM, Optimus said:

Anyway, at a recent replay I IDDQDed MAP26 and finished the rest normally, with MAP25 being my most favorite experience. I was frustrated to being forced using cheats.

Turning down the difficulty is not an option? Well, obviously the maps are at fault here I'm sure...