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Flareblood_V2

Why are slaughter maps looked down upon?

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6 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

I personally do not like playing slaughtermaps. That's really all of it.

 

What's not acceptable is the insults from both sides - just as saying that slaughtermaps suck is not the correct response, so is the reply of some slaughtermap fans who accuse others who do not agree of lacking skill. Matters of taste are hard to debate, in that regard slaughtermaps are easily comparable to more extreme genres of music, like Death Metal, for example.

^^^^^^ This. So much this.

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1 hour ago, geo said:

Here's to the finest crew in Doomworld! For ensuring this thread doesn't turn into a dumpster fire!

 

 

Wow I just discovered a surprisingly good song thanks to you. Thanks!

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21 hours ago, Memfis said:

The first 20% of the fight is exciting, the rest is just circlestrafing and cleaning up the remaining monsters.

 

Hordes of monsters look ridiculous. Slaughter maps lack the atmosphere of the original Doom. They look more like a playground of a kid who just found out about editors and figured it would be cool to place 1000 imps in one room.

 

All slaughter mappers can do is to spam revenants and cyberdemons. And when you're done with everything, a bunch of arch-viles spawn in the middle and resurrect everything.

 

All the copypasted detail can't hide the fact that the rooms are essentially big boxes with some pillars here and there.

 

You have to play Doom 24/7 to even have a chance of beating one of them.

okuplok in a nutshell?

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18 hours ago, loveless said:

Something I've noticed in discussions about slaughter maps: the loudest, most aggressive voices are people who don't like them.  Don't like it, don't play it; a seemingly lost concept.  

That's because it's a dumb concept.

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2 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

which is also one of the reasons the people who just launch everything GZDoom crap on them due to performance issues.

Wait, I'm not supposed to launch everything in GZDoom? I don't really know much about sourceports, just that you stick wads in one and then make things go "ker-poom".

 

Quote

The flow of combat changes so drastically that even "just" doubling the BGF's rate of fire ruins most maps that are centered aroung making the most of the "vanilla BFG".

Well, most people don't actually know how the BFG actually works, (it works more like a shotgun than a rocket launcher) (seriously, look it up, it's true), so it probably doesn't really matter.

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 One reason I don't like slaughter maps is that I'm bored of the BFG. I used the beta BFG for the end of ancient aliens and balance  issues aside, it was much more interesting to me that way.

 

 Having said that, I've just built a  heretic map that has evolved into slaughter map kind of by accident.  I've enjoyed it because I'm not as fatigued with the heretic arsenal and bestiary, but who knows what others will think.

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14 minutes ago, Flareblood_V2 said:

How is "don't like it, don't play it" a dumb concept?

How do I know that I don't like that one specific wad if I don't play it? Even if I don't like most of the maps so far, I'll keep playing it, hoping there's something that'll make it stand out from the rest... or something. But really, most slaughtermaps are just the same thing, over and over again.

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2 minutes ago, Flareblood_V2 said:

How is "don't like it, don't play it" a dumb concept?

It's an opinion much like your suggestion of not liking not playing.

 

I personally think they are pretty terrible as well. To me its like seeing a little kid's desire to feel likes he's killing everything and lots of it... All the while being in god mode or playing with OP mods like Russian Overkill an the like. (or both.) Seriously though, MOST people cannot beat one playing vanilla doom with no cheats. 

 

Even experienced players that can. To me, its like.... So what? Its a bullshit .wad. Its like being proud you played through a terry wad. Don't get me wrong though. I love killing lots of monsters in Doom as well. In either a Huge map that has them spaced out into segments and NOT shove you into a room with lines full of revs, cybers, barrons, and chaingunners. Or in a megawad map set that had some progressions as you get further and further into the wad. The later levels will have what will feel like a "Slaughtermap" but you should be prepared making it that far. (Equipment wise mostly, but a little skill as well.)

 

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I didn't get the memo, aside from "balanced iwad style" gameplay maps which make up the majority, I thought slaughter was the most popular map type and gameplay subculture we have.

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4 hours ago, stru said:

Me with Disjunction's Foundry map.

Wait... do I misunderstand this sentence? Is that a slaughtermap...?

 

2 hours ago, Ichor said:

For anyone who has played Geometry Dash

Nice, as a (ex-) GD player, I didn't think of this, and yes, it's a very nice analogy.

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2 minutes ago, everennui said:

Slaughter maps are, looked down on, praised and sometimes people have a neutral position toward them.

Best conclusion ever.

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24 minutes ago, Koros said:

 

Even experienced players that can. To me, its like.... So what? Its a bullshit .wad. Its like being proud you played through a terry wad. 

It's really not bullshit, you're just bad.  L2P.

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22 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

Wait... do I misunderstand this sentence? Is that a slaughtermap...?

Nope, it's not. But how much did I bash that map just because I couldn't complete it? =P

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Just now, stru said:

Nope, it's not. But how much did I bash that map just because I couldn't complete it? =P

Well, IMO, you just don't have time to do a thorough research like me...

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34 minutes ago, Flareblood_V2 said:

Wait, I'm not supposed to launch everything in GZDoom? I don't really know much about sourceports, just that you stick wads in one and then make things go "ker-poom".

You should always look for the ports used to test the map(s) in question, for example, if the Valiant .txt file says it was tested with PrBoom+ complevel 11, that means you can use that port. Also, look for "May not run with...", this tells you what you should not/can't use to run the wad. I don't know how compatible is GZDoom with everything out there. 

 

43 minutes ago, Flareblood_V2 said:

Well, most people don't actually know how the BFG actually works, (it works more like a shotgun than a rocket launcher) (seriously, look it up, it's true), so it probably doesn't really matter.

Any slaughter maps fan or casual player has already took the time to understand the BFG, and most likely know what they're talking about with "ruining" the map by altering the gameplay with extra powered weapons. That is not to say you have to forbid yourself to add an extra something to, enjoy the game better according to your preferences, but at least from what I know, most slaughter maps are made to be possibly completed by the standard Doom features, unless few exceptions. So that means, you may want to learn the magic of the original weapons and be prepared to use them in harder maps, slaughter or not, and/or add extra stuff and still have fun, do whatever you want. 

 

Regarding to the BFG in specific, the way it works is completely different from the rest of the weapons, while the shotgun is a weapon that deals instant damage (meaning your target being damaged will always be seen in the screen), and you can shoot rockets to wherever you want and they will still deal damage, the BFG depends on your position, sight, timing, it's the most complicated weapon in my opinion. Why do you say it works more like a shotgun? Am I missing something????  

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I have been keeping an eye on this thread because I was curious what answers people would give with regards to the OP's comment: 'But honestly, what's so bad about these slaughter maps that they're considered to be for "dumb children"?'. I don't consider subjective statements such as 'I don't like them' valid for this topic mentioned by the OP.

 

So far I only see the same descriptions of why people don't like playing slaughter maps. Some are valid complaints in a lot of maps but I don't think they are valid as generalizations (which is normally all I see from people describing slaughter maps). I'll try to use well known slaughter wads for examples in my post. I'm also assuming UV difficulty.

 

'The first 20% of the fight is exciting, the rest is just circlestrafing and cleaning up the remaining monsters.'

- This depends on the type of fight in the wad. I'll use Sunder Map07 and No Chance as examples. Everyone has apparently played Sunder and I have seen enough jokes about No Chance while streaming to assume that everyone has also played it or at least seen it (because this is the internet it is hard for me to assume either in my experience). In Sunder Map07 I'll use the 2nd to last fight as an example. You run in, kill imps while everything else leaves the monster closets then avoid manc fireballs/rev rockets as you run around in circles cleaning up everything. So I think this is valid for the most part (I won't talk about the deaths from people during this fight I have seen from livestreams however so it is still an effective encounter even though it ends up falling into the circle strafe cleanup phase). Now lets switch gears and use the blue key fight from No Chance. Good luck ever circle strafing for 80% of the time in the room with the blue keys. I assume you are save scumming like a madman here if you are trying this.

 

'All slaughter mappers can do is to spam revenants and cyberdemons. And when you're done with everything, a bunch of arch-viles spawn in the middle and resurrect everything.'

- I recently read the Swim With The Whales thread because I thought it would be interesting to check out (I don't really consider this wad slaughter but it was mentioned in this thread so I assume other people do). It was interesting how people were constantly dying to the Mastermind fight in Map02 which consists of hks, PEs, imps, chaingunners, avs, revs, and a Mastermind.

 

'All the copypasted detail can't hide the fact that the rooms are essentially big boxes with some pillars here and there.'

- Im not really sure why detail is even mentioned here.. but the finale of Miasma and the finale of Sunder Map13 come to mind as things which are not copy pasta. I can't really defend a wad like SF2011 however.

 

'You have to play Doom 24/7 to even have a chance of beating one of them.'

- I think there is a lot of truth with regards to this statement for many slaughter wads. The nature of many of the encounters really don't lend themselves well to lower difficulty settings because they would end up looking like the '20% circle strafe' bit even more than they already do. But most of the time this is in relation to the super large scale slaughter wads. I played Combat Shock 2 on hntr recently to learn more about how well known mappers have implemented difficulty settings. I did run into that problem on Map04 for a couple areas.. but I am curious how someone who doesn't record uv-max demos for hard wads would feel. Ended up blasting through the entire wad in a couple hours. Was good fun I think.

 

Other blanket statements such as 'they are boring and tedious' I cant really address. I just assume it isn't the person's thing.

 

I think a LOT of people making these claims don't play slaughter wads at all tbh. Then come making these generalized claims. Which is unfortunate.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, galileo31dos01 said:

Why do you say it works more like a shotgun?

The shotgun comparison is actually pretty good....

 

So the regular pump shotgun shoots 7 hitscan tracers that "fan out" horizontally in front of the player. The BFG shoots 40 hitscan tracers that fan out horizontally in front* of the player. The key difference is that the BFG hitscan blast is delayed until 16 gametics after the projectile hits something. So timing is a thing, because like you said, it's not instantaneous.

 

*This is assuming the player hasn't turned -- the hitscan blast actually fires in the same compass direction as the big plasma ball was fired, regardless of which direction the player is now facing.

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2 minutes ago, 42PercentHealth said:

The shotgun comparison is actually pretty good....

 

So the regular pump shotgun shoots 7 hitscan tracers that "fan out" horizontally in front of the player. The BFG shoots 40 hitscan tracers that fan out horizontally in front* of the player. The key difference is that the BFG hitscan blast is delayed until 16 gametics after the projectile hits something. So timing is a thing, because like you said, it's not instantaneous.

 

*This is assuming the player hasn't turned -- the hitscan blast actually fires in the same compass direction as the big plasma ball was fired, regardless of which direction the player is now facing.

That's what I was thinking, actually.

Sorry to derail the topic, but I often wonder why the BFG behaves this way. It would make much more sense if it worked like a super rocket launcher, wouldn't it?

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1 minute ago, Flareblood_V2 said:

Sorry to derail the topic, but I often wonder why the BFG behaves this way. It would make much more sense if it worked like a super rocket launcher, wouldn't it?

Sometimes game design doesn't have to have logic, so I think you shouldn't dig too deep into this. For example, why SSG fires 20 pellets instead of 14, something like this.

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In the Alpha version of Doom, the BFG shot out 40 multicolored plasma rifle-sized balls at once.  It caused performance problems and was nicknamed the "Christmas gun" because it was so bright and colorful, so the effect was changed for the final release, but they didn't change the behavior much.

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12 minutes ago, Killer5 said:

but I am curious how someone who doesn't record uv-max demos for hard wads would feel.

(I don't know whether I quote the correct thing, but I don't want to quote the whole thing.)

 

To be honest, I don't know what will happen if you throw some non slaughter very difficult WADs to these players who complains about slaughter maps all the time, but I think they just don't like the difficulty, but slaughter maps are just fallen victim to this because they usually happen to be difficult. For example, have someone who thinks original Doom 2 is hard enough to play Disjunction or something like that.

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@GarrettChan

As long as your comment is referring to the person trying hntr (and the wad also has difficulties implemented) then I think it is relevant to my comment.

 

That statement was me wondering how someone who doesn't make uv-max demos playing hntr would feel because me being pressured is probably not the same as someone not experienced being pressured. I can't relate to what someone else feels is a grind.

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19 minutes ago, Flareblood_V2 said:

That's what I was thinking, actually.

Sorry to derail the topic, but I often wonder why the BFG behaves this way. It would make much more sense if it worked like a super rocket launcher, wouldn't it?

It would be more intuitive, but I find the current implementation rather ingenious.

  1. It is easy to learn, but difficult to master. This keeps it interesting, even for the most seasoned players, to try to get the best usage out of every shot.
  2. You can't shoot and then run for cover, like you could with a rocket-launcher implementation -- it rewards aggressive gameplay, which is in keeping with the game's philosophy.
  3. You can't shoot from a "safe distance." I mean, you can try, but it's much more effective to get in the monsters' faces. Aggression, once again!
  4. The delay forces you to spend more time dodging, which highlights the strategic emphasis on movement over shooting/aiming.

IMO, Doom wouldn't be what it is without these "slow-firing, hard-hitting" weapons like the SG, SSG, and BFG. They really define the gameplay.

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5 minutes ago, 42PercentHealth said:

It would be more intuitive, but I find the current implementation rather ingenious.

I think it adds to its mystique as well. When you don't know how it works, sometimes it does nothing when you shoot it, and other times it destroys everything. It makes it seem wildly and uncontrollably powerful.

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I'll admit I do like a slaughter map or set once in a while, but for the most part, it's a lot more fun to be able to explore my surroundings as well.

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1 hour ago, Killer5 said:

I think a LOT of people making these claims don't play slaughter wads at all tbh. Then come making these generalized claims. Which is unfortunate.

 

I don't like slaughtermaps because they get in your toes when you are on the beach and are also a buzzkill during sexytime. Plus one overlooked fact is that crabs and stuff poop in them. Ew.

 

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