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HAK3180

[New Maps 22 July 2021] WIP Limit-Removing Megawad Crossbearer

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Just now, wrkq said:

No stress, no pressure. You're playing for fun, don't feel obligated or anything!

If your room's sound setup is an issue, then well, that's very much a valid excuse for missing noises.

I've been playing games on headphones for last 20 years, so I didn't even consider the option of TV speakers on the far side of the room.

TVs tend to muddle the stereo horribly, too. :(

Just keep having fun, okay?

 

Thank you very much for your advice and I do appreciate it and I'm not under stress haha 

 

I would like to perform better and try to resolve this issue so I want to see if I can turn up the sounds without screwing up the other settings here. 

 

I've always had a terrible time with sound adjustment

 

maybe I should invest in some kind of speaker system or something

 

I've been working from home since the pandemic and turned my little computer room into my home office. but now it's a room that I hate to go into when I'm off work so I just like to play downstairs on the big TV and relax on the recliner instead of sitting in front of a computer directly. 

 

I have a wireless usb mic thingy too that seems to work well. So I'm wireless. 

 

I don't even have cable I just do everything with this laptop hooked up to my TV it's a good time. 

 

So yeah I have a unique laid back setup 🙂

 

 

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@Clippy, I don't know what you hear when you're playing, but the video product's balance is just fine, in my opinion. Sound effects might be a touch quiet, but I only say that after just now going back to listen specifically for balance issues.

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2 minutes ago, HAK3180 said:

@Clippy, I don't know what you hear when you're playing, but the video product's balance is just fine, in my opinion. Sound effects might be a touch quiet, but I only say that after just now going back to listen specifically for balance issues.

 

Thanks my friend - I never feel comfortable with the sound balance and I've been struggling with it since the beginning

 

I'm gunna turn up those sound effects that should make a big difference

 

Upon checking, the music is turned higher than the sound oop!

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(@MAN_WITH_GUN, @Andromeda, @Clippy)

 

I guess I'll address Map 07 issues now. I had been waiting for MWG's footage, but I don't want too much time to pass. Let me be clear that I am not at all disagreeing with the notion that this map is quite a bit harder than most everything before it (and a lot of what's after it). I will consider that aspect a lot more as more of the wad takes form. Difficulty is somewhat subjective anyway, and even if not, my goal is not a steady incline from Map 01 to Map 30. Very few wads do this. The overall trajectory often goes that way, but let's be honest: Abattoir is harder than Odyssey of Noises. I do intend for the overall trajectory to be upward, but Map 07 is an intentional outlier, being a boss map. I also have Maps 11 and 20 as intentional outliers in terms of length, being the traditional episode transitions. 

 

I also feel it's important to point out that Map 07 is a different kind of difficulty. It is much more strategy-oriented than a lot of other combat in the wad. Some players don't like that, I understand. So some of this map is about figuring out the best way to tackle it. Once you do that, it becomes much easier. I'm not a great player by any non-N00b's standards, but I can beat this map 10 times out of 10 on Ultra-Violence with no secrets. And as the video I posted shows, it can be beaten without playing the first half well at all. To me, this confirms that the issue is not difficulty per se, but the style of difficulty - again, that it takes a certain strategy to "solve." So when I put myself in someone's shoes who's playing it for the first time on Ultra-Violence, I do not expect them to survive. I find that perfectly okay, especially since this map is so short and is a boss map. I don't think the attitude of "I should be able to FDA this on Ultra-Violence" is really an appropriate attitude to have for really any wad, unless you are really, really good at Doom. The idea that you have to play a map or a fight multiple times before having a reasonable chance at survival is not at all a foreign concept to Doom pwads. You see this in wads called slaughter or challenge literally all the time. 

 

Again, I don't disagree that part 2 of Map 07 is a lot harder than anything up to that point. But taking the thing on its own merits, I'm curious about the displeasure of this map. "I don't like this because it's too hard" and "I don't like this and it's too hard" are two different things and I'm wondering which is in play here. Adjusting for the former could just mean more supplies, but adjusting for the latter could be a more significant overhaul. Thanks for mentioning the damaging floor. The inescapable stuff (excusable to me by virtue of map brevity) is supposed to be -20, but I usually just rocket myself or IDCLEV00 if I fall in, so I never noticed. 

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Hey there. I didn't have fun with map 7, I'm sorry and wasn't trying to criticize . I wanted to share my experience playing your maps. The highs and the lows, this being the only low for me, myself, personally.  As you seen I'm having a great time 99% of the time. There were some maps like the prison one that was actually fun, despite the hopeless situation and the height of challenge I found it interesting. I wanted to overcome the prison break scenario I was having a good time. But map 7 is the only one I quit on, I actually stopped the recording and was going to walk away from it. But I thought no I have to beat this, played for another amount of time to beat, I forget how much but it was not a good experience to be stuck in this same random spider room that seems pretty random and unexpected considering the start of the map, but not an interesting fight to me. To spend half an hour or so in a spider room dying hopelessly is not fun,  was trying to get it over with and wasn't excited to beat it so yeah the difficulty was hard on me. I'm not trying to be an amazing player just trying to play as good as I can and get better and that really was an experience like no other I've had to be constantly stuck like this. My skillset was decent enough to not get tragically suck in any other parts of your maps

 

Anyway that is my opinion hope I didn't offend you I seriously enjoy most of this and would like to continue playthroughs.

 

 

 

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Hi @HAK3180, yes, the video is not coming out yet due to my recent busyness.


And yes, your position is clear to me here. I want to say now what I wanted to say additionally under the post and in the video - I went through the map a day after my rage quit and went through this section without any stress... BUT, BUT - it took me no less than exactly 26 attempts and believe me, I did not feel an honest challenge even with tactics and it’s not a matter of "trial and error" to go through this section, but in its *presentation and *conditions.

 

* Presentation: How will the player understand that after the teleport he will be surrounded by spiders from all sides, and on the sides of the exit from the teleport there will be a death pit, from which he cannot get out? And why is there not even a minute acquaintance with the section where we need to fight? We immediately enter the battle without a single hint of explanation, if we just stay there, they will immediately shoot us.

 

* Conditions: The arena for such a sudden attack is a little small and if most of the spiders shoot at you, then their attacks are almost impossible to dodge due to the size of the location itself and the placement of spiders, even the pillars doesn't do much tbh. (Optional: Put at least some ammo on this location, I went through this location 2 times and every time I was almost empty)

 

As a boss battle, the map does not really work, considering how rudely it throws you into battle in this section and as I said - the rule of "trial and error" does not work here, think about the players that do not know about your map and how you will be "accompany" their to the boss battle. The same map11 seemed more difficult to me, and the final battle there was more difficult and, most importantly, more honest and fun.

 

As @Clippy said, I'm not here to offend you, or even to anger or humiliate you. (Although I was rather rude at the beginning of the conversation about this map, my apologies) It is important for me to help you, since you are doing megawad and in order to avoid mistakes, I am writing this, and even more this is the first time when I really did not like something in your works.

 

And in order not to be a no-name critic, I will give an advice:

 

- If I were you, I would completely rebuild the boss battle, because I am sure that it is clearly possible to do better than it is now.

 

- If the first does not work, then make the boss battle in visuals and gameplay more understandable so that there is no such "surprise" that NOBODY expects. (Example: Familiarize the players with the arena in advance so that they have at least an idea of what they will do)

 

- If I were you, I would remove the death pit, it will be annoying, considering how this section rigidly forces you to move.

 

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I thought I would play another map today. Er this morning when I got up before work haha. Had a pretty rough start and I played pretty poorly most of the time but I still had a good time. This map had a very Doom one kind of feel something more classic 

 

Anyway here it is

 

 

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@Clippy, very good, thanks.

 

Some "livestream" thoughts below:

Spoiler
  • This was the 7th map. I kinda see the maps in this wad as three tiers of quality, with only this one and one other in the middle tier. Some of that is blurried because older maps have very different levels of tweakings at this point.
  • The start is dumb. It’s totally 50-50 as to which direction, but the map pretty much depends on going left first to get the plasma gun.
  • Ammo has always been something of an issue in this map. There doesn’t seem to be a good reason to be so stingy on, at least, bullets and shells. But I did notice you did not prioritize pain elementals well if the goal was ammo conservation.
  • Exploration is a part of many of my maps. I often make players hunt a little bit for supplies – not secret level hunting, but I expect players to have a look around. I was really hoping you weren’t going to miss the super shotgun when it first appeared you might. It is slightly hidden but there’s another one later, and as a general rule, looking around my maps = finding more stuff.
  • Baron star platform secret - you never humped the north marble column. You appeared not to hear the sound when you humped the right marble column.
  • Oh, wow, now you humped the north column and still didn’t hear it. Oh, good, you got the secret anyway.
  • Oh, no, you’re gonna end up missing both nonsecret super shotguns. The first you never saw. The other is right on the floor in the critical path, on screen at 32:33
  • The damaging floor could definitely be more lenient. The pit near the end could use a lift.
  • Overall, I like this as a linear foil to most of the rest of the wad, but some spots are weak, and I think it’s too long. The whole beginning ascent to the bridge just drags on, in my opinion. And this comes right after 21, which is long, and 20 might end up being the longest map in the whole thing.
  • 25 is a more recent map. Most of it is not that difficult, but it has easily the hardest fight in the wad, much more brutal than the 07 spiders. Do not record yourself dying ad pissedoffeam. Just cheat.

 

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Damn I really got to get more observant don't I lol. and I did hear some kind of a noise I just couldn't discern what was happening I wasn't expecting what exactly happened to happen in the way it happened

 

you're warning about level 25 has me concerned but sometime I'm going to give it a good old try anyway

 

I want to make sure I have extra time to play that map so I can really feel it out

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Whew! Boy, boy, boy! That took me longer than expected. I tried to record videos, but I gave up. I can't complete the majority of the maps in one piece and for some reason my GLBoom+ requires it. Unfortunately. That's why I couldn't. Maybe I will when I finally learn how to use OBS for recording. So, instead, I'm going to just post my impressions. 

 

General: 

What I liked: 

  • Fair fights. 
  • Very good usage of tactical elements, especially in case which weapon you need in every situation. 
  • Some "Think fast or die" situations. Something I also love using as you have seen. 
  • Interesting gimmick of having the ending of the first level at the start of the next. That's awesome to see. 

What I didn't like: 

  • Most maps were forcing the player to be methodical. 21 and 27 being the notable exceptions. This is way too blunt in my opinion. There is no situation "should I take this fight now or I can come back later when I'm better equipped, but there might be more and harder monsters?" This is something I would like to see in more maps. 
  • The maps will be played in a continuous play almost the same way they will be played from pistol start. That kills the megawad feeling in my opinion. Otherwise it's just a compilation of maps. 
  • I remember you criticized me for putting too many high priority monsters together. Well, look at yourself - revenants, pain elementals and arachnotrons in a combo. So when you do it is OK and when I do it it's not??? Didn't see much difference in the map progressions you criticized me for as well. 
  • You used a lot of switch textures as decoration textures. I despise this. Especially in close proximity to secrets. Map 22 comes in mind. And there were unmarked exits, as well as unmarked locked doors. If I see a gargoyle/lion/satyr face, I expect a switch. 

I didn't find the majority of the secrets and two maps are unfinished. 6 out of inability to figure a strategy out, 26 because of something that seems like a bug. I'll address it soon. 

 

Map01 - A good kickstarter, a bit of a slipper. I like first maps like this. 

Map02 - The ending was quite weird with those cacos and shotgunners. Nothing unfun anyways. The mine was a good addition to be honest. Well, at first I really got lost, but I liked it. 

Map03 - A cool map, the lack of SSG is completely offset by the presense of the plasma rifle. The arch-vile was qiute a problem, but the other stuff not that much. 

Map04 - Nocturnal maps are always fun. There is a lot of corners to watch and a lot of alternating between shotgun and chaingun. I don't remember that well, but I think you do get to the rocket launcher quite late. But no problem, there are a few fights you can save for later. 

Map06 - Didn't like it at all. Too much infinite highting by cacodemons and reversed meta for that reason as well. I hate having to kill the cacodemons before the revenants. The arachnotrons are a pain as well. And that arch-vile behind the blue door... Gives me bad vibes all in all. 

Map07 - I'm sick of Dead Simple-isms. And unfortunately, again a map like that. Why is every Map07 a Dead Simple cover? As for the arachnotrons - I killed the two on the ring with the rocket launcher, then shotgunned the others with simple circle strafing. Once all four in the extensions were dead, I switched to the ones in the deep corners and the chaingun. Unfortunately I found no way to get any of the secrets and I think they were essential. 

Map10 - Hm... the techbase with the two-key exit... It came a bit tight in the pit where you find the keys, but thankfully the plasma rifle was my saviour. Lots of running and gunning. I remember liking it overall. 

Map11 - Oh, yeah! The arch-viles were overwhelming, but there is no way you can't finish the map. I liked the "museum" gimmick about showing what what activates and where you can get from where. A very nice map that Andy Johnsen would have been proud of. 

Map13 - If there is a track I wanna ban from using, it's the one from Doom map 7! It appears in all Ultimate Doom episodes to say the least and is the most overplayed, alongside Running From Evil. Otherwise, a weird map. Nice way of hinting the blue key with the invulnerability. All the time I was having that cyberdemon to mind. The progression was quite confusing. And it got quite frustrating with some fights. Overall, I liked it. 

Map14 - I didn't expect I'll have my question on mountain themed maps answered that well. This is exactly how I want to structure a mountain themed map. I don't wanna steal your ideas, but you really inspired me how one of my maps should look like. I only didn't like it was too methodical for my taste. 

Map15 - Lots of stuff to make me scratch my head. Is the secret exit accessible at all? And if we factor in grindiness and confusing progression, that isn't how I expect the 15th map to be. The map had nothing to surprise me with and the mastermind battle was clumsy. At least your spider masterminds are not as clumsy as mine. 

Map18 - Weird way to start, but fits the map name. Weird ways to get to the weapons too. Tactics though are dead. The map forces you to be methodical like the majority of the previous. I'm disappointed. 

Map19 - Again, quite asks you to be methodical. That's quite inexcusable for such a wide open map. It also is linear and it would have been better if it wasn't. Lots of joy on paper, but not executed the right way. I didn't feel the map that much suitable for my play style. 

Map21 - Well, Map Claustrophobia. My least favorite. Despite the involved tactics that I missed earlier, the space is a very big problem, especially adding the start with only a shotgun. The map desperately needs a rapid fire gun early. That wouly make the tight spaces much easier to travers. And that arachnotron blocking the switch you need to start the map is very unpleasant. Later you had the map underwhelming at times and overwhelming the next moment. It's like a sinusoide. Way too rough for me. And it's on the "hit or miss spot" map21 - I either love or hate the maps on this slot. 

Map22 - Hm... this progression wasn't fun and the map is pretty much RNG based with that massive fight with mancubi and arch-viles. I addressed the design issues earlier. Not a map I would like to play a few times. Like Alien Vendetta's Hordes Of Monsters - too many cooks spoil the broth. 

Map25 and Map26 - interesting choices - 25 focuses on shotgun and plasma rifle, 26 on chaingun and rocket launcher. I like both maps and the progression of both. This is some inclusion of tactics I really like. The cyberdemon fight in 25 is quite weird, really RNG based though. But still not as bad as so many others. I wonder if I can get him on the raising ledges and fight him from the top, that would be a fairer and more interesting fight to Doomguy. Unless Cybie gets stuck... 

 

The bug in map 26 - something weird happens with the lifts you need to lower to get to the yellow key. The second blue one doesn't lower, even if you lower the red one first. The progression requires lots of quickness, but that shouldn't be much of a problem. But I don't understand if the second blue lift lowers. The map is unfinishable without the invulnerability inbetween the yellow bars. And you need to have the yellow key for it. I had to type IDDQD to face that, because for some reason I never managed to see that lift lower at all. Are you sure that puzzle ain't bugged? Or is it my version of GLBoom+? (2.5.1.3) 

 

Map27 - My favorite! No words for it - perfect! 

 

So that was it from me. When I can, I'll record videos. 

Edited by spd7693

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I'm still not ready for map 25 so I did this in the meantime

 

 

PS tried to get the cacos to infight via barrel explosion friendly fire but got impatient 

 

PPS anyone who says map 18 is short of awesome is wrong

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@Clippy, haha, nice chainsaw max. But that's not going to help you in Map 25...

 

@spd7693, wow, commentary on the full thing! Thanks for taking the time. Lots of reactions below:

Spoiler

Well, I’m not sure how you’re using the word “methodical.” If you’re talking about progression, it’s not at all uncommon for Doom wads to force your path. However, many of these maps offer significant exploration and even nonlinear approaches. Maps 06, 14, and 22 are really the only maps that are both nonlinear in their necessary progression and also have no true optional areas. That’s 3 of 18. Indeed, Maps 10, 13, 15, 21, 26, and 27 allow you to get and use keys in different orders. Map 11 would not technically make that list, but it is probably the most nonlinear of them all. If by “methodical” you are referring to required strategies for survival, then I would suggest you play on a lower difficulty. I test all maps with numerous approaches, often playing extremely aggressively. I do speedrun tests. There are quite often many plausible ways to approach an encounter – way more often than not, I would argue.

 

“The maps will be played in a continuous play almost the same way they will be played from pistol start.”

I vehemently disagree. Weapon distribution specifically relies on pistol starting. This is noticeable in almost every map, but especially 06, 25, and 26.

 

“I remember you criticized me for putting too many high priority monsters together. Well, look at yourself - revenants, pain elementals and arachnotrons in a combo. So when you do it is OK and when I do it it's not??? Didn't see much difference in the map progressions you criticized me for as well.”

You’d have to give specific examples, both of your stuff and mine. But high priority can depend on the situation. I highly doubt I made the blanket statement that one should not use those three enemies in the same fight. But in any case, by the time I played your maps, 16 of these 18 Crossbearer maps were released and I have done very few modifications since. So I would not at all be surprised if I need to take my own advice.

 

“You used a lot of switch textures as decoration textures. I despise this. Especially in close proximity to secrets.”

I have no interest in stopping this. Yes, I use SW textures without switches, but only the ones that are not buttons or levers. As far as using them in secrets, yes, in Map 21 the different one is a secret. In Map 22, the area without those gargoyles or satyrs is a secret. In any case, I think it’s quite obvious when these textures are used not as switches. For example, it’s never just one instance of the texture. Obviously, 40 gargoyles are not all switches.

 

“And there were unmarked exits, as well as unmarked locked doors.”

Can you provide any examples? I’m fairly confident I don’t do either of these things even once.

 

 

“Map01 - A good kickstarter, a bit of a slipper. I like first maps like this.”

What do you mean by “slipper”?

 

 

Map 06 is one of my favorites. Sorry you didn’t like it, but I don’t really understand your commentary.

 

 

“Why is every Map07 a Dead Simple cover?”

Because of the built-in effect. This is just limit-removing, remember. Anyway, Dead Simple is one simple arena of killing both mancubi and arachnotrons. This map is a short conventional map followed by just spiders.

 

 

Map11 - Oh, yeah! The arch-viles were overwhelming, but there is no way you can't finish the map. I liked the "museum" gimmick about showing what what activates and where you can get from where. A very nice map that Andy Johnsen would have been proud of.”

I’m glad you liked the “museum” effect. A lot of folks have not understood what I was trying to convey.

 

 

Map13 - If there is a track I wanna ban from using, it's the one from Doom [E1M7]! It appears in all Ultimate Doom episodes to say the least and is the most overplayed, alongside Running From Evil.”

I like both those tracks. Please feel free to see what else is available via IDMUS or just supply your own music.

 

“Otherwise, a weird map. Nice way of hinting the blue key with the invulnerability. All the time I was having that cyberdemon to mind. The progression was quite confusing. And it got quite frustrating with some fights. Overall, I liked it.”

It is a weird map and needs a lot of work still at some point. The quality of the maps is pretty inconsistent, as I have improved greatly through the process. 13 as actually the very first one.

 

 

“[Map 14 -] I didn't expect I'll have my question on mountain themed maps answered that well. This is exactly how I want to structure a mountain themed map. I don't wanna steal your ideas, but you really inspired me how one of my maps should look like. I only didn't like it was too methodical for my taste.”

I’m glad you liked the structure, but again, I don’t know how you’re using the word “methodical.”

 

 

Map15 - Lots of stuff to make me scratch my head. Is the secret exit accessible at all? And if we factor in grindiness and confusing progression, that isn't how I expect the 15th map to be. The map had nothing to surprise me with and the mastermind battle was clumsy. At least your spider masterminds are not as clumsy as mine.”

Yes, the secret exit is accessible. You have to shoot certain barrels. I don’t really like that setup, so it will most likely change. What did you find confusing about the progression? Also, this map does not have a mastermind battle at all. If you’re talking about the mastermind from Map 11, please be more specific about how it is clumsy.

 

 

Map18 - Tactics though are dead. The map forces you to be methodical like the majority of the previous. I'm disappointed.”

Again, I don’t know what you mean.

 

 

Map19 - Again, quite asks you to be methodical.”

No, it doesn’t. Not at all. This is why I’m confused. You can blast your way through this thing and speedrun it quickly. Or you can play it cowardly. You can get weapons in just about any order. Many of the monsters are on the ground level and will travel great distances. I’m not saying this map is good, but I’m totally confused as to what you mean by “methodical.”

 

“It also is linear and it would have been better if it wasn't.”

How do you define “linear”?

 

 

Map21 - Well, Map Claustrophobia. My least favorite. Despite the involved tactics that I missed earlier, the space is a very big problem, especially adding the start with only a shotgun. The map desperately needs a rapid fire gun early.”

You spawn with a chaingun in your view. You can get that chaingun within 3 seconds by running straight to it. And you can easily do it without firing a shot or taking any damage. Please be accurate with your descriptions.

 

“And that arachnotron blocking the switch you need to start the map is very unpleasant.”

It’s not blocking it. You can easily go around the spider and hit the switch without killing it.

 

“Later you had the map underwhelming at times and overwhelming the next moment. It's like a sinusoide.”

By this do you mean you felt every moment was either too easy or too hard?

 

 

Map22 – “Hm... this progression wasn't fun”

I think this map is too long. The progression is very straightforward, rivaled only by Map 14. It serves as a foil to the more involved stuff in other maps. I agree it’s a little boring, though, due to its length.

 

“and the map is pretty much RNG based with that massive fight with mancubi and arch-viles”

To be blunt, this description just doesn’t mean anything to me. What exactly did you feel was too dependent on luck? And was it the whole map or was it that one specific fight?

 

 

“cyberdemon fight in [Map] 25 is quite weird, really RNG based though.”

Again, I’d like to know which factors you feel are too luck dependent.

 

“But still not as bad as so many others.”

I’d be curious to know which others, as you only used that term for Map 22 so far.

 

“I wonder if I can get him on the raising ledges and fight him from the top, that would be a fairer and more interesting fight to Doomguy.”

Yes, this is possible, but it’s very unreliable.

 

 

“The bug in map 26 - something weird happens with the lifts you need to lower to get to the yellow key. The second blue one doesn't lower, even if you lower the red one first. The progression requires lots of quickness, but that shouldn't be much of a problem. But I don't understand if the second blue lift lowers. The map is unfinishable without the invulnerability inbetween the yellow bars. And you need to have the yellow key for it. I had to type IDDQD to face that, because for some reason I never managed to see that lift lower at all. Are you sure that puzzle ain't bugged? Or is it my version of GLBoom+? (2.5.1.3)”

First of all, the map is very much finishable without the yellow key. It is very hard, so you are encouraged to get the yellow key, but it is not impossible. I don’t think it’s even harder than the cyberdemon fight in Map 25. The yellow key is marked as a secret. Getting it is a puzzle. It’s not a bug. You just have to hit the switches in the correct order. Understanding exactly how lifts work could help too, but it does seem to be too hard a puzzle. The next version makes the order hint a little more obvious.

 

 

I’m glad you enjoyed Map 27, but I’d definitely appreciate some of the specifics you liked.

 

 

Don’t take this as confrontational. Please understand that, as someone who regularly renders feedback, trying to make it specific, I like to get a complete picture when the tables are turned. At the very least, I seek to understand what is being communicated, and I had some trouble doing that with some of your thoughts.

 

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@HAK3180

 

By "methodical" I meant exactly the progression. To be more specific, the way I found best for completing the maps. It mostly is "get into a room, get into a fight, don't leave until you win it." I didn't see many reasons the player should skip fights for later. For the most part because if you try to run, you get pinned on both sides and get punished. Sometimes there is no way to run and I was stuck in a lot of fights with just a shotgun or just a chaingun. Map 18 and map 21 come in mind. But the fact I don't like it doesn't mean it's a bad thing, right? Maybe I should play some of those maps more than once now that I have an idea what where is. Like I said, I prefer some maps to be structured like "Do I have to take this fight now or I have to take it later when I'm better equipped, but there may be more and harder enemies?" That was quite missing with map 27 being the notable exception. 

 

1 hour ago, HAK3180 said:

“cyberdemon fight in [Map] 25 is quite weird, really RNG based though.”

 

1 hour ago, HAK3180 said:

“But still not as bad as so many others.”

 

The reference was to the cyberdemon battle in Memento Mori 2 map 25. This is my least favorite cyberdemon, but I simply am bad at two-shot kills to cybers with the BFG. The luck factor is where you'll land and what will attack the cyberdemon first or if you'll drop too close to him. Overall, the warp factor of this fight is speed. I figured out how to win it eventually. It is quite an edge. 

 

1 hour ago, HAK3180 said:

“and the map is pretty much RNG based with that massive fight with mancubi and arch-viles”

To be blunt, this description just doesn’t mean anything to me. What exactly did you feel was too dependent on luck? And was it the whole map or was it that one specific fight?

 

Well, you have to have every shot count. While running I find it quite tough. Especially with that particular fight. If you don't kill both arch-viles within the first 4 seconds, the mancubi rise and block your shots while the arch-viles out in the open zap you and you have only one column to hide behind. I jumped in their pit once, killed them and once all rose BANG - both arch-viles in my face, surrounded by all demons eating my rockets while I desperately look for cover at 30% health. Well, nobody's guilty for the latter anyways. (Keep in mind I took no damage from the mancubi and I killed them with the SSG.) How am I supposed to do this? Keep in mind the number of Cranium cacodemons all over the map and the fights before that which I didn't find a better way doing it than go all guns blazing with the plasma rifle due to the big number of imps. But mostly it was maybe just me not expecting that many monsters. I am one to expect 30 revenants and not expect 70 imps. With all said, I actually praise what you did, because that is very surprising too. Much better than me pouring 30 barons in one place like I most likely would have done in that area, considering the impressions people have on my mapping, including you. And even something more grindy. 

 

1 hour ago, HAK3180 said:

Map01 - A good kickstarter, a bit of a slipper. I like first maps like this.

 

By "slipper" I meant you might still die if you're not careful. 

 

1 hour ago, HAK3180 said:

Map21You spawn with a chaingun in your view. You can get that chaingun within 3 seconds by running straight to it. And you can easily do it without firing a shot or taking any damage

 

Yet the ammo is barely enough to kill the arachnotron, which basically gets me stuck with the shotgun against so many imps, so that doesn't count. And yes, later the map is too easy and too difficult at times. Well, you like The Chasm. I can expect tight maps from you. 

 

1 hour ago, HAK3180 said:

First of all, the map is very much finishable without the yellow key. It is very hard, so you are encouraged to get the yellow key, but it is not impossible.

 

Possible??? 6 arch-viles in close proximity and you have only a chaingun and a rocket launcher? Either I can't play Doom or there is something else on this map. And I understood the puzzle. But one lift didn't work. Just watch. What am I doing wrong or not doing? Just see the video. puzzlecm26.rar 

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@spd7693, thanks for your clarifications. Yes, a few fights are hard to skip and pretty much must be fought at the time of encounter, but like I said, I'm a big fan of speedrunning, and most of the action in this wad can be bypassed or delayed. I believe you would have found a lower difficulty more enjoyable. 

 

Here's a video showing the arch-vile fight without the invulnerability. After that I go and get the yellow key. You never hit the switches in the correct order.

 

Lifts lower to the lowest adjacent floor at the time the lift is activated. This means you can put lifts right next to each other and make the heights to which they lower dependent on which order you activate them.

 

 

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Again, I'm not saying I didn't have fun on UV. Maybe I could have found playing it on HMP more enjoyable. But as I stated (maybe should have made it more obvious) the maps I enjoyed most are actually the hardest in the wad. Maybe except 6, but more likely my low key was out of frustration for not being able to complete it in one piece. 

 

Those arch-viles seemed to lower faster when I played the level... The major thing is that in the past I had noticed complevel 5, 6 and 9 of my version of GLBoom+  act quite weirldy. I remember 6 giving me weird arch-vile bugs. 9 gives me bugs with moving platforms. In @Clippy's map with the backpacks I couldn't get to a lot of secrets because on complevel 9 some lifts refused to work, yet worked on complevel 2 (which on its end gave other bugs). I'll try it this way next time. 

 

I know lifts behave this way. I never considered flipping the blue switch twice. And also I doubted you would make an unfinishable map.

 

Overall, it's all up to a style of play and you showed me how much I rely on the SSG. A wad like yours that encourages wise weapon choices, so it was a nice training for me to use other weapons. I surely will play the maps again when I have the time and maybe my second impression will be wiser and better structured than the first. 

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@Clippy, great, thanks for playing.

 

Some stuff below:

Spoiler

I was surprised you never gave any effort to getting the bulk cell secret. It’s not super easy to do; but it’s just a matter of going up the stairs and jumping off the ledge.

 

You were never even close to the other secrets, one of which is really hard to get. The last two monsters are released upon getting the bulk cell secret. 100 cells is too much difference for one secret in a 140-monster map, so if you get it, you have to spend some ammo.

 

You did surprisingly well on the cyberdemon fight. It is a little easier with infinite height off, but I’ve died there plenty more consecutive times than that. It is a fight that gives you very little advantage by knowing what’s coming, so it’s less about strategy and more about simply whether you can do it. In that regard it’s not even comparable to the spider fight – totally different philosophy.

 

Map 26 has a specific critical path, but it’s pretty open, and you will need to do some exploring to gather supplies. My master version already has some mostly very minor changes, but the big one concerns the puzzle. The yellow key is a puzzle. No one has figured it out yet. One person got the key anyway, but no one has worked out the puzzle. So change is on the way. If you can’t figure out the puzzle and get the yellow key, you will be in for another very brutal fight. If that happens, feel free to IDCLIP to the yellow key.

 

 

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Spoiler

Stop telling me to cheat LOL

 

Hey I had a good time and afterwards out of curiosity I ran through the editor to see what the other secrets were

 

Yes I should have tried harder to get that secret you were talking about on the platform and I was able to get it on another run where I was just screwing around afterwards. PS I got the cyberdemon to go on the ledge when I was also screwing around and that made for a totally weird experience

 

also I thought for sure you screwed up the mega sphere secret but then I figured out had to get it and it is the most outrageous secret of all time LOL I love it

 

I guess the infinite height does make a difference I prefer to let the cacodemons have more free range. I always thought it was BS that you can't move because a cacodemon is flying miles above you. I guess if I had infinite height turned on this fight would be ridiculous and way too cramped  - but it seems like the best strategy is to keep that cyber demon as distracted as possible. I couldn't believe I won that fight and then died because I stepped in the pool of lava glarg 

 

But yeah this map >>>>>>> spider map. 

 

Now for 26 I'm going to try extra hard to figure out that puzzle but you know I won't I suck at puzzles

 

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I'm uploading a video of Map04, it will be up shortly. I'll edit this post to contain the link.


As for my brief thoughts: I liked it alot! Good secrets, fun progression, and nice ultimate doom feeling layout. Not much to complain about. Good stuff.

Edit: 

 

Edited by BluePineapple72

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@BluePineapple72, very nice. I'm glad you enjoyed the map. Your aggressive playstyle is very similar to my natural tendency. Your run looked a lot like one of my test runs. I'm working on another map that is similar in style, just with bigger guns and bigger enemies. 

  • On GZDoom, you can use the console to see what skill level you're on. Just type in "skill" and press enter. It will give you a value from 0-4, 0 being I'm Too Young to Die, 4 being Nightmare. You played on Ultra-Violence.
  • Years ago I felt the same about unobtainable supplies. For me it was because I had no idea what counted toward item totals. When I found out that ammo, health, and armor have nothing to do with it, I stopped caring. So this is something you will see from time to time. If an enemy drops it, I make no guarantee it ever becomes accessible. If it counts toward item %, it is definitely accessible. If it is not an enemy drop but doesn't count toward item %, in most cases you can get it, but there are circumstances in which this is not true, most notably (maybe only so far) in Map 11.
  • The commando at the end becoming active is an issue I'll have to look into.
  • The secret you missed did contain enemies, but only 7 or so. You may recall your last automap check showed 165/182, yet you ended with 96% kills. This is because the spiders are instakilled as you approach the exit when you can no longer view them. This is just for the sake of kill %, but you "actually" fight them in a later map.

By the way, Map 05 is still the Doom 2 map. My maps all have proper names, so that's how you can tell which ones to play (although I think I renamed 20 already but haven't made the map)

 

 

On 11/28/2020 at 2:53 PM, Clippy said:

also I thought for sure you screwed up the mega sphere secret but then I figured out had to get it and it is the most outrageous secret of all time LOL I love it

 

I guess the infinite height does make a difference I prefer to let the cacodemons have more free range. I always thought it was BS that you can't move because a cacodemon is flying miles above you. I guess if I had infinite height turned on this fight would be ridiculous and way too cramped  - but it seems like the best strategy is to keep that cyber demon as distracted as possible. I couldn't believe I won that fight and then died because I stepped in the pool of lava glarg

That secret was a softlock I found. I often turn those into secrets rather than remove them totally. There's actually an even more outrageous secret in Map 21 that is not even marked as such. Speedrunning is of great intrigue to me, so I often look for possible shortcuts, either putting them in intentionally or specifically not removing them.

 

My position of record on infinite height for this wad is that there is no recommendation, so I do try pretty hard to make sure that on/off does not result in a major difference either way. I think I'm doing alright with that, as this fight is probably the most noticeable it ever gets.

Edited by HAK3180

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@Clippy, very nice. Fun, fun.

 

Spoiler

You got decently close to solving the puzzle when you hit the lift up to the blue one and then hit green and quick rode the lift up to hit blue. What’s not communicated well is that it is a four-switch puzzle. You have to hit blue twice in the sequence, but you did ultimately figure that out. Unfortunately, IDclipping is actually not always helpful because it allows you to be too fast. The puzzle does not require great speed or precision, just the right order. Actually, it can be done two ways, one of which does require speed, but the (barely) hinted sequence is pretty casual. You tried blue red blue green but never blue green blue red.

 

One thing I would suggest in general is that you stop and wait/listen when you hit switches, especially if you don't have a really good guess as to what it does before pressing it. Doom actions often happen slowly, and mappers will often allow you to see what’s happening if you keep looking in the general direction of the switch. Mappers sometimes also clue you in by putting the action also on the switch itself. For example, one of the switches itself lowered into the floor, indicating that something else somewhere lowered. In this case it was the corners of the white marble, effectively building stairs up to it.

 

Hmm, it doesn’t seem you realize you picked up the red key. This has happened before, but I made it a little more obvious in a yet to be released update. Oh, wait, maybe you just didn’t notice the door.

 

I’m almost always perfectly okay with and thoroughly test arch-vile jump tricks and sequence breaks. That was very creative; I like it a lot. The fight is beatable the way you were trying, but the idea is it’s super hard unless you get the yellow key, which just gives access to that invulnerability. But again, gotta make the puzzle a bit easier.

 

27 is the most recent map. It's a total sandbox, so there are a lot of ways to go about it with, I'm sure, different degrees of enjoyment and difficulty. Just know that powerful weapons are available very early. 

 

Here’s the video of me showing the not very good hint of the puzzle and then completing it:

Spoiler

 

 

 

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Yeah when I decided to just load this map and massacre/iddqd to try this puzzle myself before seeing y'guys solve it I ended up doing:

Spoiler

call lift, get on lift, press blue, press red, call lift again on the way to green, press green, get on lift, press blue, press red, shoot eye

which's clearly doing unnecessary steps but still was pretty easy to do repeatedly with just regular running (I /suck/ at straferunning).

 

Also - is that giant cross in the beginning in any way relevant to the WAD title? :)

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Fired it up this afternoon and played Maps 1-4.

 

 

Overall a pretty positive impression! While I'd say there are definitely elements to it that betray the novice mapmaker, the maps I've played so far are very competently crafted, entertaining, and reflect a solid understanding of what makes Doom "Doom". I didn't finish map 4 (keep dying during that nice trap setpiece), but I only stopped because I ran out of time to play. I'm definitely going to keep working my way through this WAD because I enjoyed what I played so far.

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@LVENdead, good to see you again.

 

I love your commentary. You hit the nail on the head several times with what I was thinking or what needs to be done differently. Maps 01 and 02 are very old, and it’s most noticeable in the “placid” action.

 

I’m not a big fan of weapons in secrets that don’t show up later in the map, unless that’s all the ammo you get for it, which is never the case for the super shotgun, so no, there is no super shotgun until Map 07 (05 is not done yet). You said it yourself; it completely changes the mindset, so I wanted to withhold it just a bit longer. Plus, I’m a big fan of regular shotgunning, but I have considered a few more rockets scattered about for Map 04.

 

Several folks comment on my texturing combos, coloring in particular. Some of that is inexperience, but some of it is simply my style that I have no intention of changing.   

 

Although I'm not particularly interested in storytelling in Doom, it is something I try to sprinkle in. Incidentally, the fallen column of Map 04 betrays a secret. 

 

Don't worry too much about finishing Map 04. You can go back around to kill the commandos, but other than that, it was just a matter of going to the exit.

 

If saveless play is against your Dooming philosophy, by all means, but don't not save for me. For me it's better for the sake of time efficiency, but I've also seen saveless play interrupted by death negatively affect the quality of subsequent play/commentary. Of course, that can happen with abusing saves too, so do what you gotta do. But I will say it gets a lot rougher than Map 04.

Edited by HAK3180

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17 hours ago, wrkq said:

Also - is that giant cross in the beginning in any way relevant to the WAD title? :)

 

Not specifically intentional, but it would be fun to put somewhat subtle crosses all over the place.

 

 

@LVENdead, I've updated the post above.

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Ran through Maps 6-7, 10-11, little under two hours. Depending on when you watch (and when youtube finishes processing my edit) you may see me moronically fiddling with alt-tab trying to stop the recording at the end of the video. My best self on display.

 

 

 

22 hours ago, HAK3180 said:

stuff

 

Good to be poking around on Doomworld again. I started a new job back in August and have otherwise been distracted by the other games in my rotation, so I'm only recently getting back into mapping and engaging here. 

 

I'm glad you're enjoying my commentary. I've been finding it interesting to make, and it definitely helps me think about maps in a constructive way with respect to my own understanding of making maps. Plus I figured, you've been helping the fledgling mapper community around here so generously with what, 60 + pages of commentary in just your part 2 thread alone, so it's probably time you got a little bit back, yeah?

 

I don't have much to say in direct response to the rest of your comments, but I did move on from trying to finish these maps saveless. Still, this session was pretty long, mostly due to map 11. I hope you find some of my deconstruction in this one helpful. You should probably take a lot of my conjecture or suggestion throughout as more of a thought experiment than anything intended to be purely prescriptive. I also end up using the term "pistol start" in an absent minded way to really man "no save", just so that's clear.  And I'm sure there are plenty of spots in this playthrough where I was oblivious to or otherwise looked over something obvious - that's partly my own typical mindset while playing, and it's also partially affected by the distraction of recording and talking while I play. It is what it is, but worth taking into account as you evaluate my feedback as well.

 

Overall, I've been enjoying experiencing what is some very thoughtful and creative mapping with a clearly emergent "HAK3180" style to each of the maps. Even the maps that I think need tweaking or more serious re-evaluation of the difficulty have a very clear character to them, and if I had to point to any one aspect that seems to define your maps to this point, it's that "The author respects that the maps themselves can be just as monstrous and lethal as the demons". That's some good Doom in my book, so I'm looking forward to seeing what's next.

 

 

Edited by LVENdead

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@LVENdead, wow, thanks for playing all that. We could chat all day, but I’ve just got a few thoughts per map below:

 

Spoiler

06

  • This whole playthrough is an anomaly due to leaving the rocket launcher. Putting in more weapon pickups is pretty simple, but I just never even considered the possibility of not getting it. I’ve never found the start to be particularly brutal at all. I think you got spooked by the arch-vile, but there’s plenty of cover, and the 1024 limit is actually very much in play, too.
  • The -20 floor is to prevent the sequence break right at the beginning, but now that I think about it, that would still be possible on I'm Too Young to Die. I may have to use geometry to prevent that skip anyway, which would enable me to turn it to -10.
  • When the floor goes out later, there is a lift to get back up, but it's not all that obvious. That area could also probably be -10. 
  • Very nice on the lava run.

 

07

  • I disagree that this map is RNG-dependent. It can be beaten reliably with a suitable strategy. I am not saying this map is good or you should like it, but it’s simply not as luck-based as purported.

 

10

  • I’m not really sure why I have those central doors locked. I made this one in 2018, I think. My best guess is to kinda sell the idea of two main distinct areas: you gotta do something in blue room and you gotta do something in red room
  • You go right ahead and use GZDoom all day long. I’m not interested in arguments of why I must use Port X or turn on or off this or that setting.
  • “Revenants or arch-viles at the end of maps” - I’m a firm believer in surprising the player with whether I’m going to surprise the player or not. I intentionally vary (sometimes with counts and charts) whether an expected trap area will be a trap or not, whether there is an obvious finale or not, and I like to throw in some totally unexpected traps from time to time. I think this is vital for avoiding staleness in a full megawad.

11

  • Betrayer of the Code is a song title, but it also refers to Doomguy in the story. I should clarify what I meant before: I don’t care about story when I play other people’s pwads, but I do give some thought to it in this wad. Put it this way: I think it can help to make a map, but it will never really break a map. I do appreciate all your musings about the story flow.
  • The maps were not made in order, and that will become very clear if and when *shudders* you play the teen maps, but yes, 11 is one of the most recent.
  • The early progression kinda depends on the player going down into the huge central room to have a look. The fake plasma gun and rocket launcher are behind my attempt at vanilla screens/monitors. They are just there to tell you that the ones back in the main atrium are now available. But you had not even really seen those ones yet. So that left you understandably confused.
  • I like the ending spider fight as is. It’s a matter of supplies. You missed some very obvious ones and some free ones that lots of people miss, so that may need some tweaking. I also think super shotgun is a much better option than rocket launcher in this and many mastermind situations.

 

Other

  • I’ll note here that difficulty levels are implemented somewhat thoroughly. I’m not sure Sunlust on I’m Too Young to Die translates to Crossbearer on Ultra-Violence.
  • I’m actually okay with freelook. I don’t test with it, but I generally assume players will use it, and I do think about that. Even shootable switches are usually not affected.

 

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Regarding MAP11 "monitors" - you already use the "window glass" texture with UAC logo, quite often.

Maybe you could use something like that on them, with an obvious-ish camera icon and/or red dot + "REC"?

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