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HAK3180

[New Maps 22 July 2021] WIP Limit-Removing Megawad Crossbearer

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@LVENdead, alright, I watched your video. Thanks a ton for playing all these over the months.

 

Some Map 26 stuff:

Spoiler
  • I think I might have added some extra bullets early in an unreleased update, but it’s worth noting that you picked up a box of bullets at 14:04 that is right there on the critical path at the beginning of the map
  • Timed secret when worried about rad suit – yes, valid point, but there are more suits on medium and more yet on easy. Ultra-Violence allows you only one, possibly two “wasted” ones
  • Lot of opportunity to use the rocket launcher – yes, a big goal of the map
  • What is the point of coming up here (where the arachnotron suddenly appears)? Well, you picked up the red key, and you’re definitely not the first one not to notice that. That’s another thing already moved in an unreleased update.
  • That was very satisfying footage of the big revenant + barons fight. You were moving, you were shooting, you were strategizing on the fly, and it killed you just a couple times.
  • Ooh, you almost had the puzzle at one point. If you don’t work out the clue of the sequence (no one has; it’s changed in the update), then it could still help you to remember exactly how lifts work, i.e. that they lower to the lowest adjacent sector at the time. So if you have two lifts right next to each other, lowering one first could change the height to which the second one lowers. That is what’s manipulated in this puzzle, but you’re not really supposed to see all that. You’re supposed to just work out the color sequence, but it’s too cryptic. The 1, 2, 3, 4 is there to tell you that it’s a 4-part puzzle, even though there are 3 switches. And the order is given to you via torches in the map. The only torches in the map are a single blue torch, two green torches, three blue torches, and four green torches. So that was my original thought, but it’s obviously too obtuse, so I’ve changed it a bit.
  • You did get a little bit lucky in the actual fight though because you chaingunned all that fodder, meaning none of them were gibbed, meaning they could all be resurrected (they’re intentionally clustered to entice you to rocket), and they happened to fall right in the path the archies took to you. I’ve never seen that fight go that smoothly. However, I have planned to alter things so that it’s easier to get the yellow key and harder to do the fight without it. That’s a tricky balance for sure, and your point is well taken, but I think it makes for an interesting task with two viable options: either skill in combat or some mental cleverness will give you the win. I got the idea from E4M6 Against Thee Wickedly, where the last key basically just gives you the invulnerability that is sorta off the beaten path, but of course, the other option is put your big boy pants on and slay that cyber without it.
  • Yes, there are a couple views of Map 25 here, and yes, it is an intentional shotgun trolling at the very end.

 

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@LVENdead, no, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking. Maybe confused crushed monsters, which is still compatibility settings dependent anyway. Either way, I didn't test the fight too much without invulnerability, as the main goal was make the puzzle plausible, which I failed at. Then once the puzzle was too hard, I was happy there was at least a somewhat reliable way to beat it, so, in a weird twist, the total balance is technically fine, just not what I want and definitely anticlimactic.

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Part 3 of my playthrough. 
Features - 

Map06

Map07

Map10

and a whole lot of rambling. We wouldn’t have it any other way ;)

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@BluePineapple72, man, you’re a couple weeks early. I should be coming out with an update, including two more maps by mid June, one of which you would have played in this sequence.

 

I would absolutely love to see what you can for M_Doom, HUD, etc., in addition to anything else art-related because I suck at these things. My only request is not messing with the menu sounds, which to me are just iconic and almost essential.

 

Just a few comments/responses:

 

Spoiler

Map 06

A lot of folks forget about the BFG. There is only one shot, two on easy (and medium?), and the arch-vile spot is the best place for it difficulty-wise, but that section is certainly doable without.

 

This level was altered fairly significantly in that the damaging floor is all -10 now, except the beginning. The previous concern had been the possibility of surviving at the very beginning, essentially skipping a bunch of level, so it had to be -20, but now I’ve just walled that area off.

 

Map 07

I think I may have added a couple rockets in the update, and I eliminated some of the rogue fireballs (i.e. imps). You picked up on a workable strategy pretty early; it just became a matter of executing it well.

 

Map 10

I had a Warhammer phase long, long ago.

This map has seen very little change since its release. It's pretty much the delineating line of Crossbearer quality. Maps worse than it are not so great, and maps better than it are at least okay, in my opinion.

 

Why are some maps skipped?

At the onset, I decided to work on the maps not in order for a few reasons. Since I started this project the exact moment I started mapping, I knew that I would get a lot better, so I didn’t want all of my most experienced maps to be the last ones, never to be played by anyone at all, because the earlier maps were inferior. I was wise enough to sense that, even if I didn’t realize at the time that I would probably end up scrapping some maps altogether (if you continue this playthrough, you will very soon see which ones are first on the chopping block). I personally would not recommend the way Alfredo is doing it for someone like Alfredo. I think he is still in the significant mapper growth stages, so I anticipate he’s going to get to about Map 18 and suddenly hate Maps 1-10. Maybe it all comes out in the wash if he ends up redoing 1-10 and I end up redoing 1, 13, 15, 22, etc., but I guess I would just find that more discouraging throughout the process. And the other reason was because of the mapping process. If I’m playing around with a concept, it’s nice to be able to put it into 2-3 maps in a row because those maps are not going to be next to each other in playthrough. It’s also nice to have a little more variety in visual theme. I can work on a hell map and then a city map even if they are ten map slots away. Same with difficulty. The first ones I did were 13 and 1, so I did a more difficult one long one and a super easy short one. I also like this approach for early playtesters like you, because this is a pistol start wad, so even players who ignore that and want to do everything continuous (thus rendering their combat feedback pretty meaningless) will have to pistol start most of these (pretty much all of them earlier in the process).

 

What will I do with secret slots?

Those are probably the last two maps I will do because I probably won’t release them to the public before at least an RC state. I have ideas for both, but they may change. I will say I agree with what you (and I, apparently, at some point) expressed for preferences for secret maps.

 

In general

Your play is very interesting. It's fairly reckless and seems somewhat absent-minded, as you talk at length about unrelated things, yet you seem to have a pretty good handle on what you're doing, as far as objectives and familiarity with the space you've already been in. I tend to think of my maps as requiring (or at least suggesting) a relatively high degree of mental focus. I have not done a full puzzle map yet, but you you are almost always going to get some combination of nonlinearity, exploration, and a sense of accomplishing objectives (switches altering accessibility, etc.) It's encouraging that you don't seem to be overly observant, but you're doing just fine.

 

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Version 10.0 is now ready to go, most prominently featuring two new maps: Map 08 and Map 24. Grab the wad in the original post or download right here. Maps are tested on all difficulty levels in Crispy, PrBoom+, Retro, ZDoom, Eternity Engine, and GZDoom. The only issue is that if you use Pr/GlBoom+, you should use -cl9 due to sky transfers (however, the newest two do not use transfers).

 

Screenshots:

Spoiler

08-1.jpg.20df1f85c49950e1296c2f6747e7916e.jpg08-2.jpg.275dc81b7a24b67452b1b0e10eb52074.jpg24-1.jpg.eb5e532c3a833b3c9c1d1bce8553f182.jpg24-2.jpg.93133bbf69d7b737367e7c1899115ecc.jpg

 

Full wad info is in the OP. Brief writeups about the new maps are below:

Spoiler

Map 08

This is a little bit of a power trip. It has a lot of meaty monsters, but you're not starved for firepower. There are several moments of reused space and looping or minor backtracking, so the geometry itself would probably suggest a map slightly shorter than what it is. There's a little secrets gimmick in play. Each secret allows you to skip a locked door, and you can even complete the map without picking up a key.

 

Map 24

The first of the three obvious weapon restriction maps, this one is probably the closest this wad will come to "true" slaughter; the enemy count does not reflect the level time/length. It consists of a few distinct fights with one choice of order that changes things significantly. Because of that, this became a very technical Doom map in terms of behind the scenes editing. There's quite a bit of poorman's (vanilla) "scripting" to set up the fights for players coming from different directions. For that reason, I'm very curious about balance. The goal for this map was to be on the slaughter spectrum with some distinct character; innovation was much more important than challenge.

 

Let me know what you think about these, and take a look at some of the others while you’re at it.

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I played this map - for the record it's a second attempt, the less said about the first attempt the better. I really enjoyed this one

 

 

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@Clippy, I remember that first run. Good times. Not a whole lot has changed, to be honest, except the very last fight.

 

A few things to point out:

  • Early on you somehow did all the things to make the map harder on yourself and still managed okay. Hopefully that indicates balance among nonlinear options.
  • You found the red door skip secret but then you ended up doing the whole red door sequence anyway, haha. At about 15:00, you can just go on with the level and skip the whole outdoor arch-vile fight. 
  • You unintentionally, opened the blue door skip secret but never explored it, and I learned something new today:
    Spoiler

    It's a shoot switch that you never actually shot at. The door is closed at about 18:00 and then open at about 19:00 and you were nowhere near it. After scratching my head and testing, I figured out what happened. We all know that originally, and in less advanced ports, rockets and plasma cannot activate shoot switches. That alone is not an issue. But apparently, rockets and plasma will go slightly through void space when they collide with a wall, just a few map units. Practically, what this means is that if a one-sided impassable line that is a shootswitch is approached from the other side, through the void, it can still be shot if the void space is small enough. Well, in this map, it's only two units, as pictured here. You can see whence it's supposed to be shot, but you shot it from where the Thing is placed when you were firing plasma at a revenant there. I never knew about this phenomenon, and it never happened to me in testing mostly because I don't test in GZDoom a ton, but I also don't use manual vertical aim, and I believe you needed to get the Z height right too. Unfortunately, I can't just move the trigger line up to the north because then it will be easier to hit mistakenly/cheesably from the intentional side. I'll have to think about what to do here...just to avoid some obscure GZDoom idiosyncrasy.

     

    1894618511_PlasmaGR.png.0d625d1fc3d63fd7ee3eaee537c7ce40.png

     

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All caught up again - this map was nuts - easily the hardest map which is giving spider map a run for it's money. If you wanted to only give the player the BFG but still make it extremely hard I think you succeeded. You balanced this out pretty well actually with the berserks, soul spheres and megaspheres. But what a hard start lol I hope you enjoy my suffering. I'm a little confused how to properly access the exit and trying to solve the map while fighting off massive armies really brought the panic - good stuff

 

 

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@Clippy, many thanks for the footage.

 

Spoiler

 

24 is not really a map that you can figure out easily without things being dead. It's definitely speedrunable, but not really until you know what's going on. So your concerns about not knowing what to do - well, that becomes a lot more clear when you have time to take the level in. (tntem - figure out what's next - load is totally acceptable in my opinion, in the name of footage efficiency). 

 

Personally, I don't find this to be the hardest map, but it is probably more of a combat puzzle than any other. That is, figuring out a good strategy makes more of a difference here than in perhaps any other map.

 

"How am I supposed to know those are lifts?" Actually, I completely forgot those worked. That was from a slightly different progression a long time ago and I meant to remove those triggers. However, the switch by where the megasphere was in the same room also activates them. Oh, you figured it out later. Yeah, you're not supposed to be able to "click on it directly." I've removed that for next version.

 

Literally as you were saying this map is hard to figure out, you stepped on the trigger to lower the remaining bars. Remember how those platforms always triggered something in Maps 25 and 26? (haha, probably not) Same thing here. And I intend to introduce that concept in a more risk free environment probably in Map 23.... Oh crap, you died and then didn't trigger it again.... Oh, wait, now you finally did. Okay, you never looked through the window to see that the bars were lowering. I will see if duplicating those sectors unseen in the void closer to the trigger will at least make the sound louder; that might help. Or perhaps different lighting. 

 

I'm glad to see you ultimately managed with leftover supplies on Ultra-Violence. 

 

A reminder: All difficulties have been significantly thought through and tested with a specific goal of not making medium feel like less of an experience. Feedback and footage on all skill levels are equally valuable to me. I would say the most valuable is the difficulty on which one will struggle some, but not mightily.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

A new map, Map 16 is released in the new update. See the original post for more wad info.

 

Crispy, Retro, anything Z-related, Eternity. If you're a Boomer, this one does use sky transfers, so consider -cl9.

 

Some screenshots:

Spoiler

16-1.jpg.e7236737d9d7947f2a91d869553a28a7.jpg16-2.jpg.91b59b6be6d6ea1e59c0414d0c3305d5.jpg16-3.jpg.d1eb535c50511c78ad92d00c95900dcb.jpg

 

Little writeup:

Spoiler

 

This is another map of numerous small/preliminary objectives, even featuring the (pseudo) usage of six keys. This is by far the least densely populated map I have made, but that doesn't mean it's easy. It's a bit of a hub map and a bit of a sandbox, nonlinear in function but without many distinctly different areas. I'm pretty happy with how it turned out, and I rather enjoyed figuring out some of the vanilla trickery to get this thing to do what I wanted.

 

 

 

 

Oh, and the update also includes a brand new Map 01 loosely inspired by the original Map 01, which was the second map I ever made.

Edited by HAK3180

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@Clippy, good times.

 

Spoiler

 

The point of the dark area is mostly just to be an alternate route. You can skip the red key by going through there. It’s also the only way to get a max. Doom 1 had several of these alternate route secrets that didn’t always give you an obvious “benefit”; the fun part was simply being able to experience more map and see it fit together in more ways.

 

The switch puzzle is coded by picture and by height. The switches you hit are the same image as the platform they raise (lion, satyr, gargoyle). And the higher (left) switch raises; the lower (right) switch lowers.

 

Why do the switch puzzle? Because it opens the exit door.

 

I think monster-encounter-altering secrets are interesting, so I have several of them throughout the wad. In this case, if you find the armor bonus secrets early, it allows you to score a barrel kill on unsuspecting enemies that you otherwise have to deal with later. It’s not a one-time secret, but its value depends on whether those monsters are still alive yet, so it rewards you for having a keen eye during the course of the map. I’m not a big fan of missable content, but I do think secret hunting after you reach the exit when everything is dead can be a bit anticlimactic, so I put into Map 01 an encouragement to be on the lookout in the moment.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, HAK3180 said:

@Clippy, good times.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The point of the dark area is mostly just to be an alternate route. You can skip the red key by going through there. It’s also the only way to get a max. Doom 1 had several of these alternate route secrets that didn’t always give you an obvious “benefit”; the fun part was simply being able to experience more map and see it fit together in more ways.

 

The switch puzzle is coded by picture and by height. The switches you hit are the same image as the platform they raise (lion, satyr, gargoyle). And the higher (left) switch raises; the lower (right) switch lowers.

 

Why do the switch puzzle? Because it opens the exit door.

 

I think monster-encounter-altering secrets are interesting, so I have several of them throughout the wad. In this case, if you find the armor bonus secrets early, it allows you to score a barrel kill on unsuspecting enemies that you otherwise have to deal with later. It’s not a one-time secret, but its value depends on whether those monsters are still alive yet, so it rewards you for having a keen eye during the course of the map. I’m not a big fan of missable content, but I do think secret hunting after you reach the exit when everything is dead can be a bit anticlimactic, so I put into Map 01 an encouragement to be on the lookout in the moment.

 

 

 

Spoiler

Nice haha - I re-looked at that map and then figured out the connection between the faces and the pillars and I should have figured what it was sooner. I know exactly how it works now but I didn't realize it opened the exit door. That seems so elaborate that I thought it was some kind of secret so it totally distracted me and surprised that is actually required to beat the map. Interesting 

 

The remake looks good and it does look better than the original but I still like the classic feel of the older map too. Even though it may no longer be up to snuff for your standards 

 

I really enjoyed the artwork at the start as well. The little Doom cute stuff that you put in. I might have been a little out of it while playing and then I went to bed shortly after but I eventually figured it out. Man I had a hard time figured out how to get out of the start even lol but the interesting way I also kind of Segways into the platforming and you have to set up for yourself later 

 

I really want to see other people play this to see other people solve that too

 

Anyway the dark crushy room was unexpected and I'm not usually a fan of that type of gameplay but now I get that it lets you skip the key. That makes it extremely beneficial especially if you're trying to get a par time 

 

The only thing I miss is it seems you cut down on the secrets. You know how much I love secrets lol 

 

Anyway it's great

 

I'll try the other map sometime and not before going to bed when I'm more alert and focused

 

Great times

 

 

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Commenting to save, because this wad looks really dope and its clear you put a lot of time and effort and passion into this set and I am really looking forward to playing it in full once its completed :) 

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Map 16 was amazing - I played it a few times!

 

I have to go on another one of my classic adventures so will leave this here - let it cook for an hour or so before it's ready to view

 

 

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@Clippy, wow, thanks for playing. Some stuff is below:

 

Spoiler

 

Whoa! How the heck did that cyberdemon get down!!?? Twice, too! They should be permanently stuck on the blue areas just by virtue of their own hitboxes. I’ve never seen that. Maybe it’s a weird GZDoom thing or maybe some sort of momentum push from someone’s attack at some point. Interesting.

 

Plasma gun – really glad you found it and gave it another run. Looks like you initially just carried over your memory from the previous night in which you kinda absentmindedly missed it.

 

I can’t believe you almost tripled the kill count, hahaha.

 

Yeah, you never had a clue how you telefragged that arch-vile. I may have to revisit that.

 

I do think the cyberdemons are cheesable from the blue area, but the whole premise is to build up enough ammo to deal with them. By the time you have enough to take them down, they’ve served their purpose, so I don’t really care how you do it. And even if you pile up all your resources early just to kill one of them, now you’re gonna be ammo starved most of the rest of the way.

 

I think I can make the blue armor jump easier and fix the rogue cyberdemons with a very simple adjustment.

 

Pain elementals basically come out when you grab the yellow key, but my trigger line has a slight gap – a replica of when the lift was in a different location. You pulled something like this in Map 06, haha.

 

Read below on how this map seems to feature six keys in simple Doom 2 format

Spoiler

You can’t actually differentiate keycards and skulls until you get to Boom, but you can kinda fake it in vanilla. So, you technically just need the three keys to exit. However, if you hump the bars with just the keycards, the door will attempt to open to its exact current height, so it won’t move at all. This is because a dummy sector tied to the bars has a height 4 greater than the height of the bars, so when you try to open it, it goes up to four below the lowest adjacent sector, because that’s what doors do, so it just stays put. But when you get the skulls, you simultaneously trigger a line that raises the height of the dummy sector, thus allowing the bars to open to a much higher height. So technically, you don’t need the skulls at all; you just need to cross lines that it’s almost impossible to cross without getting them. Plutonia Map 29 does something similar. When you approach the red key, an area lowers that contains a switch that lowers the red bars, but you don’t actually ever need to grab the red key. There may be other iwad maps like that, too, but I don’t think any of them ever use that strategy to fake the use of more than three keys.

 

I’m glad you enjoyed it. I thought this one came together rather nicely.

 

 

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A few somewhat meaningful issues have been addressed in various maps.

 

The latest version is here, and the original post has also been updated accordingly.

 

And just for fun, below is a no secrets run of Map 24, one of the most brutal maps in the set.

Spoiler

 

 

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