How long until video game mods are just banned?

[Maes]

But did their modding communities ever expand to the extent of Doom's, with thousand of levels already in the first years of their modding scene? It's a rhetorical question, of course, as the entry-level bar is raised quite high with those engines.

 

What Doom 2016 did with SnapMap was much like those simplified programming/gamemaker environments that allow you to "build" programs with colorful blocks and arrows (pretty much like textbook flowcharts), designed to be user-friendly: true, even a total noob can make something with them, without needing to learn a lot of preliminary stuff and theoretical concepts first, but they reach their limits pretty quickly. Beyond that, there is only full-fledged programming and game development, with nothing in-between. And while many would casually engage in the former, not many have the guts or drive to deal with, well, the real deal.

[snapshot]

Plenty, yes, It took some time but they do have alot of mods, not equal to Classic Doom, but again "Quality over quantity".

[Maes]

10 minutes ago, dmg_64 said:

Plenty, yes, It took some time but they do have alot of mods, not equal to Classic Doom, but again "Quality over quantity".

That just proves my argument: the entry level to even consider modding for those engines is so high, that anyone skilled enough to actually pull off a mod will likely already be an accomplished game developer/designer, or on his way to become one, hence the average higher quality of what eventually got released. Casuals need not apply.

 

With Doom, the entry level is far lower (well, sometimes even too low).

[Koko Ricky]

I think we're in the testing phases of modern modding. AI algorithms and increasingly dynamic, user-friendly built-in editors will likely pave the way for more in-depth modding. When (not if) id releases the next Doom, I imagine we'll see an extreme overhaul with SnapMap.

[snapshot]

Nah, I always saw in-game level editors as a way to limit users and / or Force them to get DLCs.

[Arctangent]

You sound very hateful and mistrustful of game devs, then.

 

Especially since ... y'know, why would they bother to go to all the time and effort to make an in-game level editor when not releasing a level editor at all is an option?

[Maes]

I can only imagine how the meeting where the SnapMap features were discussed were like. I'm certain there were factions that were in favour of a more powerful tool (or even releasing the in-house editor), but, NEWSFLASH, Marketing said that it had to be "easy to use", "user friendly" etc., so in the end what came out was necessarily a compromise. Here, have these 10-20 "Lego bricks" with which to build levels, and be happy with it. Better than nothing? Sure. A complete way to tap the game's potential? Not even close. It puts you in the shoes of a daily driver using an FWD automatic, and wondering how the hell those crazy kids manage to do drifts and shit....

[snapshot]

Lot of people usually start by blaming Zenimax for killing modding, not the devs themselves.

[Gez]

14 minutes ago, dmg_64 said:

Lot of people usually start by blaming Zenimax for killing modding, not the devs themselves.

https://www.nexusmods.com/games/?

The top seven titles with the most mods are all ZeniMax. Furthermore, the total number of mod files for these seven ZeniMax titles is greater than the number of files for all other games (including a few other ZeniMax titles, by the way).

[snapshot]

Seriously, Nexusmods ? that site is largely used for Bethesda mods only, and even then, the amount of mods barely reaches 1/4 of that on moddb, Besides Nexusmods doesn't have mods as Big and "Game changing" as those from Moddb.

[Edward850]

1 hour ago, dmg_64 said:

Seriously, Nexusmods ? that site is largely used for Bethesda mods only, and even then, the amount of mods barely reaches 1/4 of that on moddb, Besides Nexusmods doesn't have mods as Big and "Game changing" as those from Moddb.

So your argument is that Zenimax killed modding because people don't release mods on Moddb? We don't even use Moddb and only has a fraction of what's on /idgames, so has the Doom community been killing mods for the past 24 years?

[hardcore_gamer]

7 hours ago, GoatLord said:

When (not if) id releases the next Doom, I imagine we'll see an extreme overhaul with SnapMap.

Unlikely. They will probably either keep it similar or just drop the feature entirely. If they make snapmap too complex almost nobody would use it.

[Mr.Rocket]

2 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said:

Unlikely. They will probably either keep it similar or just drop the feature entirely. If they make snapmap too complex almost nobody would use it.

I would, if the door was open far enough to add custom models, textures, sounds, and scripts, I would.

I'd imagine the maps would be purely models in this case though.

[Arctangent]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Rocket said:

I would, if the door was open far enough to add custom models, textures, sounds, and scripts, I would.

I'd imagine the maps would be purely models in this case though.

I haven't the fainted idea how you propose they'd do that.

[Mr.Rocket]

10 minutes ago, Arctangent said:

I haven't the fainted idea how you propose they'd do that.

I'm not sure either, I suppose it would have to be a total overhaul to Snapmap.

It's an amazing editor, it just needs to have the ability to allow custom user created stuff to be placed in the world.

And not 98% prefab.

 

If they could somehow put GtkRadiant and Snapmap together.

 

[snapshot]

11 hours ago, Edward850 said:

So your argument is that Zenimax killed modding because people don't release mods on Moddb? We don't even use Moddb and only has a fraction of what's on /idgames, so has the Doom community been killing mods for the past 24 years?

No, my argument has nothing to do with which site they chose to distribute their mods on, It's how many mods have been created for these games, it's far less than that on moddb.

[Gez]

13 hours ago, dmg_64 said:

Seriously, Nexusmods ? that site is largely used for Bethesda mods only, and even then, the amount of mods barely reaches 1/4 of that on moddb, Besides Nexusmods doesn't have mods as Big and "Game changing" as those from Moddb.

Top game on ModDB is Mount & Blade Warband, with 1268 files, 59 addons, and 478 mods. Supposing there's no redundancy between these categories it gives us a total of 1805 downloadable stuff. That's less than the last of the 18th top game listed on Nexus, which has 1916 files. Second top game on ModDB gets a total of 526 things. Alright.

 

In total ModDB has 61330 files, 23603 addons, and 16284 mods, for a grand total of 101207 things. That's less than the amount of files for just Skyrim, Oblivion, and Fallout 4 on the Nexus.

 

As for mods not being big and gamechanging on the Nexus, that's absurd. There are many TCs, plenty of addons comparable to official expansion sets in professionalism and scope, and a lot of complete overhauls of game mechanics.

[ENEMY!!!]

Sorry wrong thread, please delete.

[Zemini]

21 hours ago, Mr.Rocket said:

I'm not sure either, I suppose it would have to be a total overhaul to Snapmap.

It's an amazing editor, it just needs to have the ability to allow custom user created stuff to be placed in the world.

And not 98% prefab.

 

If they could somehow put GtkRadiant and Snapmap together.

 

Snap Map for us scrubs

 

There could also be a intermediate level editor where you can create your own prefabs, monsters and stuff for other people to use.  A small goal of just creating a room is much easier then taking on a entire level. I think most map dreamers would at least attempt this.

 

Then a real map editor tool kit where only Elites could use.

 

Is it possible to have a editor read blue prints and create a map based on that?  Obviously it will be missing props and animations, but it would be a great start.

 

 

[Mr.Rocket]

1 hour ago, Zemini said:

Snap Map for us scrubs

 

There could also be a intermediate level editor where you can create your own prefabs, monsters and stuff for other people to use.  A small goal of just creating a room is much easier then taking on a entire level. I think most map dreamers would at least attempt this.

 

Then a real map editor tool kit where only Elites could use.

 

Is it possible to have a editor read blue prints and create a map based on that?  Obviously it will be missing props and animations, but it would be a great start.

 

 

Hah, yeah just draw it up, slide it in to the editor and compile it! 

Yeah it would be neat but I don't think our technologies ready for that yet. :) 

 

Mapping and blue prints are already sort of the same thing though.

 

 

 

[Maes]

8 hours ago, Mr.Rocket said:

Hah, yeah just draw it up, slide it in to the editor and compile it! 

Yeah it would be neat but I don't think our technologies ready for that yet. :) 

 

Mapping and blue prints are already sort of the same thing though.

Perhaps related?

 

AutoCad in Doom/Doom2

 

But in order to use AutoCAD you'd need to be at least an architect. Sorry Joe Sixpack, close but no cigar. ;-)

 

The moral of the story: nobody is going to put in the hard work/elbow grease for you, and no technology can be used a crutch for the lack of talent, sklil, or willingness to learn.

[hardcore_gamer]

4 hours ago, Maes said:

The moral of the story: nobody is going to put in the hard work/elbow grease for you, and no technology can be used a crutch for the lack of talent, sklil, or willingness to learn.

 

I wonder for how long this will stay true though. Technology is becoming more advanced by the day and some claim that one day even artists will be fully replaced by machines/technology. Just look at how much easier it is to make games today compared to 20 years ago. How much easier will it be another 20 years from now? I think there might actually come a time where it will become legit possible for a mere hobbyist to create games that in the past would have required dozens or even hundreds of developers and tens of millions of dollars. 

[Maes]

1 hour ago, hardcore_gamer said:

Just look at how much easier it is to make games today compared to 20 years ago.

Actually, it's just as hard as ever: one must learn a programming language, some basic principles etc. Sure, the tools are more refined, but so is the learning one must do before he can even consider himself an "entry level game developer".

 

"Game maker" tools also always existed, but to go beyond the level of copy-pasting templates, one had to cross into full-fledged dev territory.

 

The ante for what you can commercially sell and be considered "AAA" also rises with time. Sure, any random bloody fool can open SnapMap, make a room, play it, and in that simple gesture simply go over years and years of development, training, etc. and produce something unthinkable 20 years ago. The question is....would you buy his "creation" now?

 

And the ability to create original content that is not considered repetitive or boring will still be far off the abilities of any machine for the foreseeable future. Unless George Orwell was right in 1984, and "prolefeed" such as horoscopes, romantic novels, sports news, pop songs etc. really are written by machines ;-)

 

A lone hobbyist or small software house today are far more unlikely to produce a sensational and original game than they would've been in the early 80s (assuming in both cases, that they possessed the minimum required skills to do so). And still we're talking about a full-circle developer/artist/designer etc. It doesn't help that, unlike the early 1980s or even the early 1990s videogames are now a mature industry with plenty of competition, hyper-specialized development teams and seasoned players (in the industrial sense). There are occasional new openings (e.g. mobile gaming), but for the most part, genres, production values etc. are set in stone.

 

A random guy with a "user friendly" game-making tool/editor and resources that others have created? Not even close.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Maes

[hardcore_gamer]

3 hours ago, Maes said:

Actually, it's just as hard as ever: one must learn a programming language, some basic principles etc. Sure, the tools are more refined, but so is the learning one must do before he can even consider himself an "entry level game developer".

 

"Game maker" tools also always existed, but to go beyond the level of copy-pasting templates, one had to cross into full-fledged dev territory.

 

And still we're talking about a full-circle developer/artist/designer etc. It doesn't help that, unlike the early 1980s or even the early 1990s videogames are now a mature industry with plenty of competition, hyper-specialized development teams and seasoned players (in the industrial sense). There are occasional new openings (e.g. mobile gaming), but for the most part, genres, production values etc. are set in stone

 

 

 

A couple of counter-arguments. First, the AAA gaming industry is destroying itself with it's insane budgets for this very reason (remember EA saying Dead Space 3 needed to sell 5 million copies to make money?). Second, I don't think high production values are as important as people claim. Does Mount & Blade have good graphics and animation?

 

Third, how profitable it is to make games depends on your cost. A lone developer doesn't need anywhere near as much money in order to make a living of his games. Huge companies need to sell millions of copies to make a profit where as a lone indie dev could in theory make a living selling just a few dozen thousand copies. If he is able to obtain even just a small fallowing if fans, it can be enough to cover his expenses.

[Maes]

7 minutes ago, hardcore_gamer said:

 

A couple of counter-arguments. First, the AAA gaming industry is destroying itself with it's insane budgets for this very reason (remember EA saying Dead Space 3 needed to sell 5 million copies to make money?). Second, I don't think high production values are as important as people claim. Does Mount & Blade have good graphics and animation?

 

Third, how profitable it is to make games depends on your cost. A lone developer doesn't need anywhere near as much money in order to make a living of his games. Huge companies need to sell millions of copies to make a profit where as a lone indie dev could in theory make a living selling just a few dozen thousand copies. If he is able to obtain even just a small fallowing if fans, it can be enough to cover his expenses.

I'll believe the first and second argument when AAA titles stop being released. As for the third, again, that might have been true in the 80s (that's how many legendary developers like Anthony Crowther and Jeff Minter came to be, as well as many software companies), and maybe at some point in the 90s through the shareware model (though even then, there were corporate distributors: Apogee, to name one). including Doom itself, even though they had a LOT more to work with than a guru poking arcane assembly code on a C64, including a non-trivial experience with their previous games.

 

But where are the Jeff Minters and Anthony Crowthers of today? OK, there occasionally are gems like Limbo or World of Goo, but today the deal is much more cut and dry than back then.

 

And in any case, if you were trying to argue that a lone/indie developer can still make a difference/leave a mark (which is still possible, albeit harder), that developer is not gonna be a guy fucking around with an editor or "make your own game" kit, but someone with the, let's say "classical" game developer skillset, and not someone relying on various crutches.

[hardcore_gamer]

36 minutes ago, Maes said:

And in any case, if you were trying to argue that a lone/indie developer can still make a difference/leave a mark (which is still possible, albeit harder), that developer is not gonna be a guy fucking around with an editor or "make your own game" kit, but someone with the, let's say "classical" game developer skillset, and not someone relying on various crutches.

I never said otherwise. Obviously nobody is going to make an awesome game with some crap like RPG maker. But modern engines like Unity and Unreal have made game development accessible to the masses. Even industry grade 3D software like Zbrush and Modo aren't THAT expensive.

[Maes]

32 minutes ago, hardcore_gamer said:

 But modern engines like Unity and Unreal have made game development accessible to the masses. Even industry grade 3D software like Zbrush and Modo aren't THAT expensive.

There's that circular argument again: in order for such an engine to be made available "to the masses", as you say, the pros must already have much better at their disposal, esp. in terms of final runtime efficiency and control over the engine.

 

E.g. do you think that a game like Doom 2016 could be made on those engines in "stock" form, with the same resulting visuals and with the same resource utilization? And, in particular, could it be made using the stock tools that come with them? That's without even tackling the problem of creating original artwork resources, which probably is a bigger entry barrier than the engine itself, at this point. And don't say "there are free assets to use", because we all know how games that use those end up looking and playing...

 

Of course, a developer that's willing to cross the "stock" boundaries is no longer a random guy cobbling stuff together on a free engine...

[snapshot]

I've (edited seen) cases where indie games beat triple A games in quality, obviously they weren't made by one person, But that doesn't mean making good quality game is an exclusive to triple A studios.

[hardcore_gamer]

1 hour ago, Maes said:

E.g. do you think that a game like Doom 2016 could be made on those engines in "stock" form, with the same resulting visuals and with the same resource utilization? And, in particular, could it be made using the stock tools that come with them?

Obviously people can't use only one single program. When I said "bringing game development to the masses" he did not mean that literally anybody would be able to just sit down and make something. I meant that you no longer need a large team and millions of dollars to make cool stuff. In theory, a single individual can now make his own decent games.

 

That's without even tackling the problem of creating original artwork resources, which probably is a bigger entry barrier than the engine itself, at this point.

 

Making your own art assets is something that can be learned. And modern programs such as zbrush and substance creation/painter make it all the easier.

 

 And don't say "there are free assets to use", because we all know how games that use those end up looking and playing...

 

To be fair pre-made assets CAN be used well. They are just extremely abused so they have gotten a bad name.

[Da Werecat]

28 minutes ago, hardcore_gamer said:

I meant that you no longer need a large team and millions of dollars to make cool stuff. In theory, a single individual can now make his own decent games.

Another World was made by one guy, IIRC. And the game wasn't of the cute primitive type back then.

 

So I'd say stuff became much less accessible since those early times. Sure, the tools are better, but the standarts have also risen - astronomically. If we're talking about cutting edge stuff, that is.