A trip to id software(s).... (August 2017)

[IMX]

About that Doom Slayer statue. It will never stop bothering me that the O's in the DOOM logo switched places.

[Arno]

I really appreciate the photos of your pilgrimage to the lake house and the early Id Software offices. I've read "Masters of Doom" twice, and only now I actually have an impression of how the locations from the book look like. Very interesting!

[Kristian Nebula]

On 9.10.2017 at 8:25 AM, EmotionalFelineinaMadstate said:

Looking through these images was epic.

Totally :)

[Flesh420]

What's the story of that Mastermind in the sixteenth picture down?  Looks badass.

[EmotionalFelineinaMadstate]

12 minutes ago, Flesh420 said:

What's the story of that Mastermind in the sixteenth picture down?  Looks badass.

I think it was the original model to make the sprite.

[DooM_RO]

That is fucking A-mazing!

 

I am very very interested in finding out which parts of Doom 64 served as an inspiration. We already know about the last arena in Kadingir being a part from Watch Your Step and the Mancubus death animation but I want more dammit!

 

Also, Watch Your Step is also the place with the infamous death trap at the end, while Kadingir is where the Doomguy was entombed. If this is true, then this means only the first half of Doom 64 is canon, which means the Mother Demon is still alive!

[Buckshot]

On 10/11/2017 at 2:18 AM, Arno said:

I really appreciate the photos of your pilgrimage to the lake house and the early Id Software offices. I've read "Masters of Doom" twice, and only now I actually have an impression of how the locations from the book look like. Very interesting!

Thanks! It was very awe-inspiring to see these locations in person. They had a bit of surreal vibe though... a very powerful and strange feeling that I can't even begin to explain. It was overwhelming, The excitement and history makes them legendary... like temples or dark citadels that echo the mind & soul of powerful wizards from all those years ago.  The elder gods of gaming.  Of course, to anyone else, they're just ordinary houses and offices, but to us... well, they're ground zero. Everything started right there in those locations. If you've ever read the Dark Tower saga, it was the same feeling that Roland must have felt when he finally reached it. Best way I can describe it.

What really shocked me is how big the lake at the lakehouse was. It was huge, and surrounded by swamps/lagoons. Dunno why, just always pictured it smaller. I can only imagine the gator presence there, and to read about Romero wading through flood waters to get to that lake house (it was a good drive to get to it), makes it feel even more intense after seeing it. The bridge that was washed out went straight over the lake... it was a very long bridge (we travelled over it to get there and back to Shreveport), and to think of anyone trying to cross that or those gator-infested waters... well, I'm honestly surprised he made it. Very dangerous.

Again, I sincerely regret not being able to visit the Plano office, which is where Quake 2 to Doom 3 were developed. My wife wanted to head back home because we were pressed for time, even though it was only 30 minutes or so from the Mesquite Black Cube office, but in the opposite direction of where we were heading. I plan on volunteering again for Quakecon next August, so i'll follow-up with pics and video of it at that time. Will be my first stop in Dallas. Also, I met a lot of great folks on the id team, both at the id studio in Richardson and at Quake Con. Some of them came up to say "Hey Justin! Heard you got to visit the studio" or thanked me for my efforts with the DOOM group on facebook or to talk about my id software collection, appreciate the fan enthusiasm, stuff like that. I didn't catch all their names, and sadly, there's many folks at id software these days that I don't know them all by heart, so I kind of felt bad about that. But I thanked everyone of them for the opportunity, as they all play a role in it and crafting its future.

Would also like to mention that meeting Donna was one of my favorite parts of the visit. She was the greatest! I stood there talking to her for about a good hour, reviewing all their achievements and awards! She was blown away by one award in particular... it was a Emmy award. Seriously, an actual Emmy! She was fascinated that games could get Emmy's these days, and I was pretty surprised by that too. She went on a bit about different things from over the years, how wild and crazy it use to be with the first team to how things operate nowadays... especially the days of bashing through doors with battle axes, lol. She reminisced about all the folks that have come and gone, how it went from just a handful of people years ago to a good few hundred or more now. Told me some stories about "the boys", and how they still keep in touch all these years later. She had a detailed story about the Quake 3 tour bus, and the miniature modeled version they had in the display cabinet, the crazy tours the actual bus did, lol. I asked "what was the hardest game launch to get through?" and she immediately shouted "DOOM 3!!! OH MY GOODNESS!!! WE WERE SO RELIEVED WHEN THAT FINALLY SHIPPED! Everyone was under so much pressure and so much expectation! People were camping out in their offices non-stop back then!". She was just absolutely awesome... Very much the oracle of id's history and made sure you knew it, too!


 

19 hours ago, EmotionalFelineinaMadstate said:

I think it was the original model to make the sprite.

Correct. These are the original latex models designed by artist & modeler Gregor Punchatz (Who is the son of DOOM's banner and boxart designer, the art legend Don Ivan Punchatz) and scanned into the game to create these demon sprites. There was a bit of digital enhancement/changes done by artist Adrian Carmack before the sprites were completed, of course.

 

10 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

That is fucking A-mazing!

 

I am very very interested in finding out which parts of Doom 64 served as an inspiration. We already know about the last arena in Kadingir being a part from Watch Your Step and the Mancubus death animation but I want more dammit!

 

Also, Watch Your Step is also the place with the infamous death trap at the end, while Kadingir is where the Doomguy was entombed. If this is true, then this means only the first half of Doom 64 is canon, which means the Mother Demon is still alive!

Actually had a conversation with Jason a couple months prior to visiting Id studios, and he went into a little bit more detail about that. He mentioned some highlights about certain areas of DOOM 64 that were direct inspirations for DOOM 2016, I'll dig through that conversation in a bit to see if I can find that. He did note that they were very impressed at the rate we were finding some of the easter eggs, references and inspirational elements... but he says they're also equally shocked that there's still quite a bit more, some obvious and some not-so-obvious, secrets and easter eggs we haven't found yet still in DOOM 2016. When I asked "Like What?" it was more of a "Dunno. Gotta figure it out, now don't ya?" response.

Also, when he was designing these levels, before they were ever sent over to the texture/detailing teams, he would map them entirely using classic DOOM textures. He said it was kind of humorous to see all the classic snapmaps people were creating because it reminded him of how his maps looked when he had just finished them. Covered in classic DOOM textures. He said the most memorable map he did was the one with the new rendition of the Icon Of Sin... said he literally had just used the DOOM 2 Icon of Sin wall texture where it sits in-game, and it was until much later that the 3d modeled icon of sin was placed in there.

His first game at id was RAGE in which he did map development, but he's been mapping since the Duke Nukem 3D days whilst building a *massive* game collection from many eras of PC and console (I've seen pictures of it... this dude really knows gaming like the back of his hand). He  mentioned while he loved the classic DOOM series, it was DOOM 64 that really had the biggest impact on him. It's pretty cool because it seems like each person at id has their own favorite title in the series of DOOM and Quake, and so we saw a lot of inspiration from different parts of these series as a whole mixed in with their own ideas and creations. But, just like Jason, they also seem have very in-depth knowledge of so many other titles from various platforms that also plays a role in their design techniques. Very interesting to hear how it all pieced together. 

Also, I knew better than to directly ask questions about stuff I know they can't comment on. Not only will they not comment on a lot of questions I had, I wasn't going to ask anything to put them on the spot or anything that would get anyone into any trouble or piss them off. Instead, I opted for a stealthy "feedback/suggestion" sort of approach to, heh. I provide them feedback, saying "hey, I really liked that... hope to see (this), or maybe we'll see (that) going forward". Example, I said "Man, it was awesome seeing the Icon of Sin after all these years... maybe we'll get to see more of him in the future. Sure hope so!" and Jason laughed, knowing exactly what kind of stunt I was trying to pull, lol. He was well prepared to handle these subliminal inquiries with a humorous "Well, we'll have to wait and see, now won't we?" response. I also got a lot of "Anything's possible!" answers too :P  

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Buckshot

[DooM_RO]

4 hours ago, Buckshot said:

Also, when he was designing these levels, before they were ever sent over to the texture/detailing teams, he would map them entirely using classic DOOM textures.

 

So this is why the Hell levels feel so authentic!

 

Wait, so the detailing is NOT done by the Level Designer? Either way,  I really REALLY wish I could see those blockouts with classic Doom textures.

 

EDIT2:

I really wish we had a Doomworld Q&A session. Most interviewers ask really generic questions.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by DooM_RO

[Buckshot]

1 hour ago, DooM_RO said:

 

So this is why the Hell levels feel so authentic!

 

Wait, so the detailing is NOT done by the Level Designer? Either way,  I really REALLY wish I could see those blockouts with classic Doom textures.

 

EDIT2:

I really wish we had a Doomworld Q&A session. Most interviewers ask really generic questions.

 

 

Yep. There's multiple teams that compose every aspect of the games design, or so it was explained to me. For instance, Jason does the actual layout/design architecture of maps, and then those are sent on to other teams who do detailing,  lighting, environmental fx, modeling, full texturing, etc. I would assume there's project managers and coordinators who relay all the stuff between teams so communication of what needs to go where and how things should look are all seamless. When he stated he textured them with classic doom textures, this was probably for his own reference in design so he got the feel of how the world would look beyond poly's, lines and vertices.

Also, it was mentioned that as all staff are under the Zenimax, they are eligible to transfer to other projects for any company under Zenimax's umbrella. Id staff can go to Arkane, Arkane can go to id, Bethesda can go to id, Tango can go to Bethesda, Machinegames can go to id, etc. If they see games they'd like to work on, apparently transferring between development studios is a choice open to them. That's a huge plus in my opinion.. as it keeps anyone from getting bored or stale with any particular title. It keeps devs from being "locked in" to something they feel they're making only out of obligation, and lets them have a say and freedom to explore games they really want to be doing. If they really want to work on something, say like DOOM, and they've done (2) fallout games in a row  and they're like "yeah, I want to work on something else this time",  they are free to do so. Keeps fresh minds on any series. I don't know how common that is or how often it's deployed, but it was mentioned it's an option available. I think one example of this being very beneficial is using DOOM 3's development history as an example: the initial woes of half the team who didn't want to do it and wanted to work on something else, the other half did, there was threats of quitting, people got fired (think it was Paul Steed). This method prevents that sort of thing. 

I did inquire to do a Q&A session about some community questions from the facebook group I help admin, though they seemed more like "Well, instead of doing that... just come visit the studio and whatever takeaways you get while you're here, feel free to share with everyone." The first thing I said at the id studio right to Donna, the guard and Jason were "I really appreciate the opportunity being here, but there's a lot of other fans who wish they could be, too, so anything that you share with me today will be shared with the community because they are just as excited in this visit as I am."

Now, don't know if in making that statement actually hurt my chances of seeing more than I did, but I wanted to share that experience with everybody and I wanted everyone in the community to be on the same page as I was. Everyone here now officially knows as much as I do :)

Edited October 12, 2017 by Buckshot

[DMPhobos]

Necropolis in the new doom does reminds me of Doom 64 in some parts

[DooM_RO]

@Buckshot

 

I was under the impression that Level Designers did more than just layouts and scripting. A lot of them are able to make their own 3D models and textures and then place them in the environment too. It just feels really strange to me that you make a level and don't get a say in how it looks. I thought that the artists were responsible for making props, 3D models, textures and other environmental assets and then the Level Designer actually implemented them in the level. 

 

[Buckshot]

14 minutes ago, DMPhobos said:

Necropolis in the new doom does reminds me of Doom 64 in some parts

I believe that was, in fact, his primary example during our discussion... Necropolis.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Buckshot

[Buckshot]

Just now, DooM_RO said:

@Buckshot

 

I was under the impression that Level Designers did more than just layouts and scripting. A lot of them are able to make their own 3D models and textures and then place them in the environment too. It just feels really strange to me that you make a level and don't get a say in how it looks. I thought that the artists were responsible for making props, 3D models, textures and other environmental assets and then the Level Designer actually implemented them in the level. 

 

I think there's different stages. I'm pretty sure they all coordinate with each other on "look, feel, theme". I think artists do drafts, everyone gets some say as to what elements are going to compose the level, and then everybody goes to work and collaborates on it as a whole, all with their respective functions. I'm making an educated guess on this from the discussions we had... but it seems like its a group project and everybody takes a role, but not limited to that role if they see areas they feel could be "cooler if we did this" or "need to make improvements here". Architecture alone in a game that size... that's a lot of work me thinks.

 

[DooM_RO]

20 minutes ago, Buckshot said:

I think there's different stages. I'm pretty sure they all coordinate with each other on "look, feel, theme". I think artists do drafts, everyone gets some say as to what elements are going to compose the level, and then everybody goes to work and collaborates on it as a whole, all with their respective functions. I'm making an educated guess on this from the discussions we had... but it seems like its a group project and everybody takes a role, but not limited to that role if they see areas they feel could be "cooler if we did this" or "need to make improvements here". Architecture alone in a game that size... that's a lot of work me thinks.

 

I wonder if it's possible to take multiple tasks in a company. A lot of Level Designers are able to model and texture their own assets and/or do environmetal work after they are done with the layout. 

 

Now obviously, the game is really good but it did have its fair share of problems. For example, almost everyone mentioned that the second half of the game is more linear than the first. You don't really see level design like in the Foundry and Argent Facility after Advanced Research Complex. Did you have a discussion about this?

 

Oh and did you have a discussion about SnapMap and the future of modding too? SnapMap was far too limited for my tastes. Even after all the updates.

[Buckshot]

36 minutes ago, DooM_RO said:

I wonder if it's possible to take multiple tasks in a company. A lot of Level Designers are able to model and texture their own assets and/or do environmetal work after they are done with the layout. 

 

Now obviously, the game is really good but it did have its fair share of problems. For example, almost everyone mentioned that the second half of the game is more linear than the first. You don't really see level design like in the Foundry and Argent Facility after Advanced Research Complex. Did you have a discussion about this?

 

Oh and did you have a discussion about SnapMap and the future of modding too? SnapMap was far too limited for my tastes. Even after all the updates.

As far as taking on more work, I'm sure that's upto the individual and their current workload, and what their peers/leadership feel is within their scope of expectations. That's a good question, actually. Not one I asked or have a definitive answer I for that I can piece together from discussion.

From the linear-style of the second half of the game, I didn't question it. I've always chalked it up as the first half was more exploration and functions, where as the second half was more focused on speed and escape. They didn't have you running back and forth as much in the second half because you were too busy pushing forward. Enemies gradually became tougher as you approached hell and it was more quick puzzles and carnage. It seemed as if it was intended to be more creepy, on edge, and get out of a situation as fast as you can during that portion. I think it was intentional to balance the game's pace, but again, that's my opinion.

I didn't bring up snapmap as there's only two categories people fall into that I've noticed:  either you really liked it, or you really didn't. For the mapping/modding purists, it just wasn't enough and will probably never be. For everyone else who is passive and more laxed on mapmaking where we don't have time to build things entirely from scratch, it was plenty fine with its module and scripting components. I, personally, played a lot of stuff people made... but never had the the interest in building snapmaps of my own. It was fun, had some cool little tricks. Does it hold up against the mods and maps for classic DOOM series? No, of course not. Of course, mods and maps for the classic series have years of source code tweaks, source ports, tools and other things that allow people to basically make an entirely new game from scratch with relative ease and a community behind it to help you. Lets be real... we're trying to compare tools meant for a ~20MB game from 1993/4 to a game in 2017 that's just shy of 100GB's in size, lol.

Obviously, while it would be cool to have a entire development suite or sdk for DOOM 2016, in it's practicality, people were already struggling with projects for even something like DOOM 3, which was only a couple gigabytes in size. They started projects realizing only after that it would take entire teams of people to make something incredibly worthwhile. Most of those projects died on the vine and the ones that did manifest into something either took ages to make, or ended up short of what they were trying to be. I think when they promised such a toolkit for RAGE, id themselves didn't realize how much would need to go into to simplify such tools for common folks who didn't have a studio behind them to undertake the massive know-how of all it's functions. I think toolkits and training wheel engines like Unity and Unreal Engine are better served for those purposes as that's the target market for them and they are developed for anyone to be able to learn and make something, where as idtech is more about being a powerhouse for id games directly or professional studios comprised of entire teams. I mean, they are opting to focus on making games rather than wasting time making training toolkits and sdks when there are already such on the market for that purpose. I think snapmap was something intended for easy access to make some cool stuff on a whim for DOOM, which gave us something to play around with rather than nothing.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Buckshot

[Doctor_Spengler]

These images made me smile big. If I was there I would be a kid in a candy store.

[DooM_RO]

@Buckshot

 

I disagree about Doom 3 modding, just look at what the Dark Mod community has created.

 

I think SnapMap was in the right direction but didn't go all the way through. I mean, you can make some very primitive "brushwork" with player blocking modules and apply some textures to them. Then you have a small selection of 3D models such as pillars, bricks and stuff like that to put in the level to give it shape but that's about it.

 

If they just gave us the ability to make brushes, allow us to use every 3D model and texture in the game (as opposed to just a small selection) and let us make changes to the gameplay it would be more than enough. The scripting is incredibly powerful and I imagine will only get better.

[Quasar]

On 10/12/2017 at 2:53 AM, DooM_RO said:

That is fucking A-mazing!

 

I am very very interested in finding out which parts of Doom 64 served as an inspiration. We already know about the last arena in Kadingir being a part from Watch Your Step and the Mancubus death animation but I want more dammit!

 

Also, Watch Your Step is also the place with the infamous death trap at the end, while Kadingir is where the Doomguy was entombed. If this is true, then this means only the first half of Doom 64 is canon, which means the Mother Demon is still alive!

Thought I'd mention you have that part about the trap (which I no longer believe is necessarily relevant anyway, it was just an offhand idea I had once) off - the trap where the floor falls out is in the final room of Blood Keep. "Blood Keep" was apparently however also a development name for both the Necropolis and for Kadingir at different points as development of the game progressed ("alpha" codex entries present in The Art of Doom use the name alternately for both locations, seemingly indicating that developer intentions shifted at some point).

 

I'd also stress that, since Doomguy didn't make his decision to stay in Hell until the end of Doom 64, it'd not work in favor of a unified canon to say its ending never happened. If Kadingir is indeed meant to be Watch Your Step after a few millennia of decay and/or random shifting in the reality of Hell, then I think it's much safer to assume that the Doom Slayer doubled back on these areas at some point much later.

[DooM_RO]

@Quasar

 

One of the testaments mentions that the "priests brought down the temple upon the Doomslayer"

[Quasar]

Right, I know. It kind of reminds me of how the ceiling falls and John gets trapped and is not able to kill ;)

[Buckshot]

I'm still hoping that the events of Heretic (the three serpent riders that Corvus seeks to destroy are the three Wraiths we see in d'nur in doom 2016)  serves as the prequel to Doom 2016, and that Doom Slayer and Doom Marine are one in the same who exist at different points in time, eventually meet through some timeshift paradox, and one stays on Earth to keep it safe while the other chooses to remain in Hell for all eternity. Basically, Doom Slayer is the future version of Doom Marine, who has seen all the horrors and destruction and had been driven to near insanity by it, who has to destroy a earth overrun by hell, travel back in time (in an 'army of darkness'-like fashion) to destroy it at it's source upon ancient civilization and kingdom of d'nur and that the UAC's first argent harvesting operation in ancient D'nur (many eras prior to the d'nur we saw in doom 2016, but many centuries after the events of Heretic). The UAC struck a deal with this ancient civilization (like a mideval culture) for access to argent, but were secretly developing argent weapons and armoring, and experimenting with portals and slipgates upon d'nur (since these experiments wouldn't be legal in earth realm). They "accidentally" open a portal to hell in which Corvus had sealed many eons before, and the demons consume D'nur... But not before the Doom Slayer is able to nearly that them using the UAC argent-infused armor and weaponry, which he also provides to some of the strongest warriors of the kingdom to fight at his side (the sentinels). While they try to keep the demons at Bay, he travels through the portal to hell itself yet again, attempting to recover the crucible (the weapon used by Corvus to destroy the serpent riders), encountering the Titan.

 

Though he destroys the Titan and escapes back to d'nur, he ultimately fails to stop the UAC, the kingdom fails and all are either slain or assimilated by the demon hordes and is entombed in the sarcophagus, and is released again in the future directly during the beginning of doom 2016 of a now altered future where the UAC is harvesting argent from a destroyed d'nur after striking a deal with hell to access it in exchange for technology, and these events run parallel the demonic outbreak on phobos/Deimos/Mars bases that align with the events of DOOM... Where he, his younger self (the doom marine) has yet to experience any of this, is just finding out about the invasion, and preparing a dropship with a response team to the hangar on phobos. Eventually, they meet face to face slightly after the events of DOOM 2016 when doom marine frees him from the tethered slipgate that Dr. Hayden imprisoned him in, he realizes that Doom Slayer is a hardened and psychotic version of himself from the future who had to destroy earth in that time to stop hell, so to alter the future, Doom Marine goes back to fight the demons upon Earth before it falls, while Doom Slayer takes on the front in Hell, hoping that on two different planes they can bring end to it once and for all and save Earth before it's too late.

 

 

Wishful thinking, though.

 

 

EDIT: I actually was working on a fan-fic story on exactly this scenario, which encompasses the entire doom series into a single story. It's a long ways from finished, but it's entirely readable, though a lot of areas that are just drafts or unfinished. Here's the link:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByGhTatkLH2WOUhtZkQzYUVJWTg/view?usp=drivesdk

Edited October 14, 2017 by Buckshot