How do you perceive conflicting routes in your head?

When there are multiple routes in the game, how do you think about them? Are they like parallel universes for you, or do you believe that there is one true route among them? If some character dies in one route, but later you manage to save them in another, do you feel like you just "fixed" the situation? Or are you both sad for the character in the former route and happy for them in the latter route at the same time? Do these conflicts make your head explode a little too? Please no spoilers from any games.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post

When I know that I have to make a choice in a game, I save and I pick the option that seems best to me. Usually I will try one option for a few moments to see where it goes, then reload the save to try the other one and finally decide which has the best outcome. If in one choice I do a good thing for the game world and in the other a bad thing, I will certainly pick the good thing option and be satisfied. The bad thing where a character dies or something doesn't exist for me afterwards.

 

Also, the saving before choosing method helps in ammo and resource management, as I can pick the option that uses less resources in the game and keep them for later.

 

Unless the options are too straightforward, in which case I will pick without saving.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

Do karate chops hurt more than a very fast fist punch? Does the karate chop hit harder because the attack is more focused at the point of impact than a fist? Because it seems like the karate chop strike area is like an axe strike and the impact of a fist strike area is like a sledge hammer. Might hurt more

Share this post


Link to post

If i am given 2 or more routes, then i will make a save, chose one and move on, which after seeing the consequences of that choice, i will load that save and choose another, repeating the process until i've experienced all the outcomes of said routes.

After that i'll choose the route i liked the most and finish the game.

 

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, Pencil of Doom said:

If i am given 2 or more routes, then i will make a save, chose one and move on, which after seeing the consequences of that choice, i will load that save and choose another

3

I usually do this if I get the feeling that one of the choices will screw me and keep me from progressing in the game.

Share this post


Link to post

Save, take one. If it's the right route, reload and try the other. If it's a side route, continue and then take the other route.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post

Do you sometimes feel like all that saving and loading kind of cheapens your accomplishments? It's like your actions don't really have much weight if you can always take them back. I think it can be exciting to play with the "never go back" policy at least once so that you can experience real thrill every time you have to make a decision. And I guess in good games they shouldn't always have immediate effect, so that you can arrive at a bad ending and realize that you made a wrong choice much earlier.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post

I don't overthink it too hard.  All routes are possible, maybe the game or a sequel canonizes some of them as bad ends or true ends or whatever but otherwise whatever I end up with is "valid".  I'm generally not one to try to use saves as a rewind if I inadvertently screw up an optional quest or make a choice that turns out to be questionable, since there's always the option to do it differently on another run.  But I'm definitely one of those people who plays games for the game more than the storyline so eh.  I might try to get all the endings but if it's hard to do I generally leave more than one or two for when I replay the game after not having played it a while.  If there's a choice at the very end I'll generally reload and try both though.

15 minutes ago, Memfis said:

And I guess in good games they shouldn't always have immediate effect, so that you can arrive at a bad ending and realize that you made a wrong choice much earlier.

I wish more games would do this, but people whine if they only find out later that they screwed up, as well as any time the results of a choice aren't immediately obvious it seems like.  For example: nerfing the consequences of dealing with that one guy (I won't name him in case it's considered spoilers) in the re-release of Strife.  Plot choices in games (at least ones I've played) also seem to be stupid and obvious most of the time (gee, should I take up the offer of the villain I've been fighting against the whole game when he suggests I could join forces with him instead?  Although if I have a save just before that point I'll usually accept that offer the first time just for kicks to see what sort of result it will produce; it's usually amusing in its "you done screwed up now" insultingness at least.)  Games with a single major turning point where you can just save there and reload to do the different routes are also kind of a problem (see: Strife again).  I suppose it's easy for anything more complex to seem illogical if it's not done well enough, and maybe I just play the wrong games for those kinds of thing.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Memfis said:

Do you sometimes feel like all that saving and loading kind of cheapens your accomplishments? It's like your actions don't really have much weight if you can always take them back. I think it can be exciting to play with the "never go back" policy at least once so that you can experience real thrill every time you have to make a decision. And I guess in good games they shouldn't always have immediate effect, so that you can arrive at a bad ending and realize that you made a wrong choice much earlier.

That is partially true. Yes, it will feel great if I make a choice without saving and it is a good one, but if I make the wrong one, I just won't be happy with myself, if it is a really major thing that messes up my ending or something.

Now, if it is just about losing resources, I won't bother as much, but sometimes I want to keep those too, without losing them to stupid choices.

Share this post


Link to post

eeny-meeny-miny-moe-which-route-should-I-choose-to-go?

 

*pumps a new shell into shotgun* 

 

lets go.

 

The human consciousness basically creates a model that simulates the future by running through various feedback loops and from past experiences, to make a decision.

 

In my case, I know that it's just a game, so I don't give it much thought. If I find myself taking the bad ending route, it just means I'm on my way to the Dark Side and death. No biggy.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Memfis said:

Do you sometimes feel like all that saving and loading kind of cheapens your accomplishments? It's like your actions don't really have much weight if you can always take them back. I think it can be exciting to play with the "never go back" policy at least once so that you can experience real thrill every time you have to make a decision. And I guess in good games they shouldn't always have immediate effect, so that you can arrive at a bad ending and realize that you made a wrong choice much earlier.

I absolutely feel that way when it comes to timespans of like less than one hour or so. Playing any game, or just a single doom-map simply feels different if your decisions, and your mistakes don't matter all that much because there never really is anything at stake.

 

I like using saves when I want to practice a map, but the attitude some folks have (beating a map by "virtue" of save and load) irritates me, quite a bit actually. I have heard the arguments of the "save/load" crowd often enough, and at the very core it seems most people just pick UV, then encounter difficulties they can't quite handle reliably, and so the "save spamming" begins. Eventually they reach the end of the map and think (or actually claim) they beat it, even though they saved, died, and loaded several times over, which clearly indicates that the requirements to beat the entire map have not been met to a satisfactory degree.

Quote

 

But NIH, that's so elitist of you to say! How dare you tell me I wasn't good enough?!

 

Well, I didn't say so, the map gave you several fail states (0% health here and there, and also here and there), and just rolling over those by way of saving and loading doesn't make your shortcomings magically go away.

Quote

But NIH, quicksave/load are there for a reason!

So is the fail state that is 0% health.

 

I think this save and load spam is one of the reasons so many people have this "UV or bust mentality" when it comes to doom. Because why pick the appropriate skill (or practice properly) when you can just save and load to cover up the mistakes, because you maybe could have beaten the entire thing in theory, when in practice you actually didn't? Beating parts of a map individually is not the same as beating the entire map in one go, because the latter clearly requires a proper strategy and consistent execution as well as some degree of memorization (especially true for maps with "cheap gotchas" and "one trick ponys").

 

The same principle applies to games in which you make choices which have a strong impact on how the plot develops, or what means the game provides for you to progress (if those means have pros and cons to them, which somehow impact the gameplay down the line).

 

Sorry for this minor derail, but this was something that came to my attention most recently, and it kinda fits into this thread here at least partially.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
13 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

*quicksave & quickload*

You can't deny the usefullness though. Although the quicksave & quickload kinda "lessens" the effect (YMMV), it can still serve as good practice on handling future encounters on other maps. Some people cannot beat certain maps even with constant quicksave & quickload spam, and some players, like me, like to practice their fingers first to see how fast they are in action and what they can do in the certain moment, then after finishing a map with quickly-saving/loading, repeat the same thing in one go entirely, without any saving at all. It can save some time, as getting to the same point at the later part of the map and dying at the same point can really frustrate people into giving up. I know everyone here on Doomworld (even the noobfaces) are demigods of determination and self-torture with 20 years of experience, and that dying 50 times at the second-latest room in a map is nothing, but, think of the children. They have to see what got them and what they can do about it really quickly before starting over.

 

About the thread:

 

I like to explore optional paths first, so I always take my chance to look up the tiny alleys or vents or cracks in the walls. However, I can get really frustrated when I accidentally wonder down the right path, but that frustration kinda washes away. I rarely try to save at certain choices, unless I am so emotionally invested that I want the best ending to happen, so with what can be described as magical fangirling power (I am a guy) I try and engineer to have the best thing happen. It can be especially heartbreaking to be forced to see your favorite character getting rekt by the bad guys no matter what you do. I consider that good game design, no matter how heartwrenching it was or how much of assholes devs are. When conflicted with a serious choice inside a game, I always do what my character/me would do. So lets say my character is a Paladin of Kawaiiness and Cat Smiles, and that he is on a quest to exterminate a vampire lair while posing intensively and blowing kisses. However, he then figures out the vampires were kidnapping people to keep them safe from the Lord Asshole who was gathering a army to march to east. Lord Asshole is a lazy fat asshole who doesn't know anything about war and just sends people to death. And so my Paladin of Kawaiiness is split on exterminating the vampires fully or helping them protect the local people by turning on Lord Asshole. This, in long terms, can mean that by a) Lord Asshole has a entire village worth of men dead in the next battle and b) Vampires were trying to take over the county and Lord Asshole was their latest enemy. So what does Korbi do? He exterminates the vampires! Then he takes the people himself and attacks Lord Asshole and after some super intense combat (posing) Paladin of Kawaiiness eliminates Lord Asshole becomes the Lord Paladin of Kawaiiness, bent on protecting the innocent from low-fashion dickheads while posing. Of course, if the game allows me to do so. Either way those vampires are going to get fried >:3

 

I try to apply that logic in every game, and usually don't feel bad for not choosing the other option, if the game is open enough to allow near infinite options. Games like Undertale though, have me replaying them multiple times JUST to see what happens. Same with Stanley's Parable. My soul was not calm until I figured out all the endings to the standalone HD game.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

About quicksave/quickload and save spamming

Well, different people have different types of attitudes towards gaming. We definitely consider "beating a Doom map properly" should follow the "competitive standards", but not all people are into this. However, people can still enjoy the game by using freelook, S/L, non infinite height or such things to enjoy the game, so all this depends on the way we create our own standards. I may use save scumming to beat some maps in Sunder, Sunlust, Dimensions or similar difficult WADs just to experience them because they have very unique feelings to play through, but obviously I don't consider I can beat this map properly. Of course, if someone over-claims his/her own abilities, this would be somewhat annoying anyway.

 

However, from another standpoint, I think games with quicksave/quickload system would sell better because they're more friendly to players.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

However, from another standpoint, I think games with quicksave/quickload system would sell better because they're more friendly to players.

I think the usefulness of saves can't be overstated. It's such a good "tool" to figure things out, invaluable for practicing, too. But as far as standards go, I have mixed feelings about this, because beating a map in one fell swoop doesn't necessarily imply a competitive motivation, if that makes any sense.

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

I think the usefulness of saves can't be overstated. It's such a good "tool" to figure things out, invaluable for practicing, too. But as far as standards go, I have mixed feelings about this, because beating a map in one fell swoop doesn't necessarily imply a competitive motivation, if that makes any sense.

Here are my two cents:

 

The idea I brought up the sentence about the games sell better is that obviously nowadays, game developers turn their interest towards cellphone games, which I'm mostly not interested in. I think the advantages of the cellphone games are low cost to develop with a nice potential gain. However, big games cost too much, and the it can be a waste of money in case no one likes it. For example, mostly the price of games won't be permanently lowered in the first year, but Thief (2014) did permanently lowered the price by 50% after the launch of the first six months. I guess they know how the game had bad reputation as a reboot and annoyed the fans, of which I'm one, from the original Thief trilogy. Of course, there could be other reasons I'm ignorant to realize, and I realized that these words seem completely out of the topic...

 

Yeah, I definitely use saves to practice a particular area again and again in order to the find out the best strategy for it, and of course I understand your meaning about "not necessarily implying a competitive motivation". I don't know how to describe that, so I used this inappropriate word, but I think you get my idea. That's why I usually like to watch strategic playthroughs with calm and detailed explanations and plannings, not people's exaggerated reactions to bad games or bad designs for "amusing" others, which seems more popular nowadays, at least in China.

4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
39 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

people's exaggerated reactions to bad games or bad designs for "amusing" others

*cough* avgn and nitroactive/aquarias199 *cough*

Edited by therektafire
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, therektafire said:

*cough* avgn and nitroactive *cough*

don't really disagree, but avgn does it with style. ;-)

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post

I see all paths, the one I like the most is my chosen path.

 

Any of the paths that are typically considered "good" are the ones I take, I like to be the good guy, the other paths are "what ifs" and never happened as far as I'm concerned.

Share this post


Link to post

I'm not going to feel bad about loading a save before I walked into a trap or some room that I wasn't ready for when it benefits me more to load and take the other room first and then come back. One of the best things about being able to time travel in games. You always win.

Share this post


Link to post

Good question Memfis.  Because I tend to stick with routes and forget thinking about alternatives, so when I see the map in a different, and perhaps better way, it's suddenly obvious, but why hasn't it been before? I thougth this thread is fitting because i commented on this some days ago on a video of rdwpa playing prcp. Or how many times I stubbornly ran into a wall and then watching Dotw 's fda made me feel like I'm back in elementary school. 

Share this post


Link to post

For me, alternate routes are one of the core features, that differentiation games from more passive forms of entertain like movies and novels. They give the player agency, and ultimately ownership of the experience, by letting their choices detemine the outcome. For me there is no one 'true' route, rather it's more of a case of 'there are many routes through this game, but this one is yours.'

 

Concerning character deaths, I tend to have mixed feelings depending on how it's handled. If you have to earn it, and the mechanism for doing so is logical and related directly to the threat, and if the rest of the game is affected by their presence, then great. I'm less keen on the fate of a character being determined by an arbitary check such as having over 18 charisma, or whether I liked them enough to play through their obvious backstory sub plot.

 

Additionally, I might be perverse in delibertately letting some characters die if I feel it lends weight and improves the narrative.

Share this post


Link to post
On 15. 10. 2017 at 1:45 PM, Memfis said:

parallel universes

Exactly. And saving/loading is like travelling between them (as well as in space and time). I think it works for me this way because I don't really associate myself with any playable character I control. Yeah, I don't play games for immersion. I'm in for the challenge, inspiration, sometimes audio-visuals, but not to even temporarily make myself feel like I'm actually inside the fictional world.

Share this post


Link to post
19 hours ago, Memfis said:

Do you sometimes feel like all that saving and loading kind of cheapens your accomplishments? It's like your actions don't really have much weight if you can always take them back. I think it can be exciting to play with the "never go back" policy at least once so that you can experience real thrill every time you have to make a decision. And I guess in good games they shouldn't always have immediate effect, so that you can arrive at a bad ending and realize that you made a wrong choice much earlier.

 

It makes the game less suspenseful if the enemies don't have any chance at winning.  One might play on a lower difficulty for the same result. Give the monsters a chance and fight for your life. I used to play continous with plenty of saving in the past, and pistol starting the maps and not saving  has improved my game. Well, I still save when playing difficult maps, but very sparingly,   and only because I don't have the time and motivation to be stuck in some map forever. 

Share this post


Link to post

There is almost always a canon path, 99% of the time it’s the most morally correct goody two shoes one, so I try going for that first solely because i believe it’s the developers more focused or intended story to tell.

 

Do appreciate sequels that reveal that is not the case and it’s something else (Like Fallout 2) or better yet when it lets you fill the gaps and whatnot (KoTOR 2)

Share this post


Link to post

I liked one visual novel, which after some important event deleted all savings as the way to say "what's done is done, you can't return back to save your fav character" and everything gets creepier. In not so mean games, I save my progress in checkpoints or just save in middle of gameplay if I have to go to do something else. Sadly, real life don't have revertable saves, so I just choose less painful or straight-foward options and move on. 

Share this post


Link to post

I just pick whatever I think it's best and usually don't think much of the other routes, for example, I find it hard to force myself into playing a mischievous/malign characters so I don't have much of a reason to care about what happens if I had made such choices.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now