The biggest flaws of Heretic (as compared to Doom)

[zokum]

I haven't read every post in this somewhat odd thread. If you're comparing Heretic to Doom, compare it to Doom, not Doom 2 or The Ultimate Doom or Final Doom etc. If you're gonna throw in the sequels, you should also add Hexen to the feature set of Heretic. Hexen is quite a bit more advanced when it comes to linedefs than any of the original Doom trilogy games.

As for linedefs, Heretic inherited Doom's, and did some minor tweaks. Doom 2 added a whole load of new ones, and those are also used in some of the episode 4 stuff in The Ultimate Doom. The "non door" switches in Doom 2 are merely doors with a different message. Just go check the yellow-skull switch on e4m2.

[Da Werecat]

I don't really see why comparing Heretic to Doom 2 is wrong. Doom 2 is the definitive Doom feature set. Hexen isn't that for Heretic, it's a different game altogether. It adds things and also removes them.

[Xaser]

Yeah, really. Heretic->Hexen isn't analogous to Doom->Doom2. That'd be more like Doom->Doom64.

[zokum]

4 minutes ago, Da Werecat said:

I don't really see why comparing Heretic to Doom 2 is wrong. Doom 2 is the definitive Doom feature set. Hexen isn't that for Heretic, it's a different game altogether. It adds things and also removes them.

Because Doom and Doom 2 are different games. Original and sequel. Hexen is the sequel to Heretic. The games diversified from the original source, the Doom engine. Heretic added some things, Doom 2 other things. Hexen added more to the Heretic engine. Why do we allow for Doom's sequel to be considered the same, but not Heretic's sequel? The topic says Doom, not Doom 2 or the original Doom trilogy.

John Romero was the producer of Heretic and he most likely wanted the games to go in different directions. Some ideas went into Doom 2, some into Heretic. After the success of Heretic, they further refined the concept, just as with Doom to Doom 2, and made Hexen. He clearly didn't want a simple fantasy reskin of Doom. Heretic is much more interesting evolution of the Doom engine than Doom 2 was. Some of the potentially coolest bits like horisontal doors just didn't work.

As for Doom 2 VS Doom, Doom 2 also lost a lot of stuff that Doom originally had. Episodes, progression map, left and right views in v1.0 etc. Doom 2 is a much more bare bones experience than Doom, with focus on good abstract levels and a larger cast of monsters and textures. I'd say Raven's definitive 'Doom engine' is the Hexen engine, not Heretic.

I'm not a big fan of Heretic myself, but the engine is a nice twist on the Doom engine. The gameplay and design just isn't quite my cup of tea.

[Gez]

Doom II basically reused pretty much all of the original Doom content (except for a few textures), something that allowed it to share the exact same engine but lead Doom II to feel more like an expansion pack than its own separate game. Best proof is that when people say "Doom" here, they generally actually mean "Doom II".

 

For Hexen the decision was to make a completely new game, sharing very little of Heretic's original content. Imagine if instead of making Hexen they made a "Heretic II"* on the model of Doom II, adding some of the Hexen content to Heretic's gameplay; that would have been a better comparison to Doom II.

 

 

(*Not the actual Heretic II that was eventually published and is pretty much completely different in terms of engine, setting, and genre.)

[Da Werecat]

2 minutes ago, zokum said:

The games diversified from the original source, the Doom engine. Heretic added some things, Doom 2 other things.

That actually justifies the comparison. They even came out around the same time.

 

You can also compare Doom (2) to Hexen. But it would be a separate comparison, because Hexen is a very different game from Heretic. You can compare all kinds of things.

 

2 minutes ago, zokum said:

The topic says Doom, not Doom 2 or the original Doom trilogy.

And that is semantics. When people say "Doom" here, they usually mean Doom 2, or both games at once. For example, you typically say "Doom modding" instead of "Doom 2 modding", despite the fact that Doom 1 modding is a relatively obscure subset of Doom modding.

 

11 minutes ago, zokum said:

Episodes, progression map, left and right views in v1.0 etc.

This is so small compared to Hexen, which dropped pretty much everything that made Heretic Heretic, aside from a few comparatively insignificant things.

 

You seem to be talking a lot about engines, but that's not all there is. I've been under the impression that this thread was mostly (or at least as much) about the game design intricacies.

[Peanut]

I'd like to take a second to put my two cents into the ring. I also really enjoyed Heretic as a child. Even when I was reintroduced to Doom theough the Collector's edition (thanks to my parents being stiffs and taking it away when I was three) I always wanted to get my hands on Heretic again and complete my childhood. Low and behold, my awesome uncle ends up sending me his copies of floppies and the family was whole. However, you'd never see any lumping of Doom and Heretic together from me. Sorry, can't do it. I can't even call Heretic a "Doom clone" because it has enough of it's own thing going on. Here's why:

 

On 10/20/2017 at 1:37 PM, Hisymak said:

- Lack of a BFG-like weapon. Heretic has 7 weapons (same as Doom) and they almost match each other between Doom and Heretic. Except the BFG and Firemace. I personally think that they should have made something like D'Sparil's staff (at lease for the two expansion episodes) with similar destructive effect as BFG.

- Less monster variety. Doom has overally the highest amount of monster types among many games that existed that time, and each monster is unique in some way. Heretic has only about a half to choose from (if I do not count different kinds of same monsters like scratching/firing gargoyle, non-shooting/shooting golem and the shadow variants etc.)

- Your health cannot go above 100

- No hitscan monsters

- No "expansion pack" with new monsters, weapons, textures and music like Doom2 was for Doom.

 

On the gameplay aspect, I'd say Heretic is completely fine. Sure, there's quite a few things that can be tweaked to make it a better experience for some (like projectile speeds of certain weapons in deathmatch) but I'd say a lot of the things you've listed here don't have any real problems. The fact that there aren't any hitscan enemies really can't detract from anything since the only hitscan weapons you have are the Crystal Tickler and an unwieldy rapid fire weapon that you have with the Dragon claw. I'd even go so far as to say the level designers made good use of this with the monster counts and how they're used. I can see a ton of problems with the base levels if you were to replace certain monsters with a Chaingunner or even Shotgunners. Does this make sense? Just kind of how the two elements of the monster behavior and your weapon selection kind of go hand in hand?

 

As for the lacking of textures, I actually see it as more of a challenge than a curse. See what you can build with a limited pool but still be able to make it look appealing. Okay, that's kind of a lie but there's still truth to it. I am guilty of using a texture pack for my current project.

 

For the monster variety... eh. I get where you're coming from, but I'd say the ghosts can be a class of their own. I like how they're context sensitive with magic weapons while the more physical do jack.

 

On to the BFG thing... I have to completely disagree. Again, both of these games have their own things going for them so I find it hard to make any real comparison. The Tome more than makes up for any super weapon since it buffs your entire arsenal for a time and honestly a super weapon would completely ruin what it has going for it.

 

Anyway, I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Peanut

[baja blast rd.]

1 hour ago, zokum said:

I haven't read every post in this somewhat odd thread. If you're comparing Heretic to Doom, compare it to Doom, not Doom 2 or The Ultimate Doom or Final Doom etc. If you're gonna throw in the sequels, you should also add Hexen to the feature set of Heretic. Hexen is quite a bit more advanced when it comes to linedefs than any of the original Doom trilogy games.

As for linedefs, Heretic inherited Doom's, and did some minor tweaks. Doom 2 added a whole load of new ones, and those are also used in some of the episode 4 stuff in The Ultimate Doom. The "non door" switches in Doom 2 are merely doors with a different message. Just go check the yellow-skull switch on e4m2.

Heretic's flaws are still Heretic's flaws, regardless of whether you compare it to Doom 1 or Doom 2. 

[zokum]

I think it all depends on what we precisely mean by the various term. I've always thought of it as Doom, Doom 2, Final Doom as one branch. Heretic and Hexen as another, Strife as a third and chex quest, hacx etc as other branches. I agree that Hexen has a lot of changes, but it is a sequel set in the same universe, by the same developer, using an updated engine based on the previous game, just like Doom 2 and Final Doom etc. I think it's a bit arbitrary to allow for the inclusion of all the 3 games in the original Doom trilogy and disallow Hexen. And like many have pointed out, Doom 2 does have a slight mission pack feel to it, and Final Doom even more, but they are still standalone games with a lot of new content, and more maps than the original games had.

As for flaws in Heretic, there's substantially less artwork in the game compared to Doom. The color scheme is a bit too colorful and cartoony for my taste. It often feels like it's doom, with a twist, which isn't always an improvement over the original. To me the gameplay was slow, it lacked the speed and instant feedback you had with chainguns and shotguns. I find the overall theme in Doom to be more interesting. And by the time Heretic was out, id had released a sequel that had much better deathmatching and much grander and bigger maps than the original game had.

The original Doom didn't really ship with any good deathmatch maps, Doom 2 did. Heretic was for me always more of a single player game, which is fine. They really refined the fantasy in a 3D engine-concept with Hexen. I have barely played Heretic and Hexen, The Doom games I have played on and off since the mid 90s.

I think one of the main reasons Doom has a lot more artwork is that it is often based on retouched photographs, instead of having to painfully slowly draw everything from the ground up. This made it possible to quickly get a lot of quality artwork into the game. Heretic does suffer a bit from that, having much less varied scenery and a less realistic feel to what is in the game.

Heretic is a more whimsical and humor-filled game, with it's bright sprites and powerups that turn monsters into chickens. That doesn't appeal as well to me, I prefer the more serious tone found in Doom. That is one of the reasons why I dislike Duke Nukem 3d, Redneck Rampage etc. I can laugh at things in Doom, but that is from funny situations that emerge from serious settings, not a more canned laughter approach of turning monsters into chickens.

[Da Werecat]

So. Can we compare Strife to Hexen? Or should we only compare it to Heretic and Doom 1?

[zokum]

1 minute ago, Da Werecat said:

So. Can we compare Strife to Hexen? Or should we only compare it to Heretic and Doom 1?

You're free to compare whatever you want, but it might not always be the best comparisons :D

[Endless]

I must admit that I've never played Heretic enough, maybe in my whole life about 10 hours (a lot more in Doom). But I have enjoyed the game in its own way, however it has not been the same feeling that the masterpiece that we adore here has given me, so here, without prior notice I will only put the things that I consider, they are not the best in Heretic.

 

- Weapons feel weak
- The sounds are not so attractive
- The soundtrack is passable, however it does not enter the subject, since it seems more like a soundtrack for an RPG while we explore
- The maps can be a bit tedious
- The enemies feel generic.

 

In my humble opinion, I think those are the things that I do not like so much about the game, but even so, I repeat, enjoy playing it.

[Da Werecat]

The funny thing is that apparently Heretic can't stand on its own as a game, because it was superceded by Hexen, which simply threw away everything Heretic and replaced it with a new game with a different philosophy.

 

I don't think there's a better way to insult Heretic, even if you try really hard. This thread has fulfilled its purpose.

[Lila Feuer]

Well, it kept the healing items, Chaos Device, torch, green Serpent and the Maulotaur!

[Cruduxy Pegg]

That's hilarious because if anything heretic feels like a complete game way more than hexen. Hexen feels like playing the beta of a good idea executed horribly.

[Gez]

10 hours ago, Da Werecat said:

The funny thing is that apparently Heretic can't stand on its own as a game, because it was superceded by Hexen, which simply threw away everything Heretic and replaced it with a new game with a different philosophy.

 

I don't think there's a better way to insult Heretic, even if you try really hard. This thread has fulfilled its purpose.

It's more that Doom got to be redefined by having id iterate over the original design; while Raven was more ambitious and decided to make a completely different game instead.

 

Imagine the comparisons between Doom and Heretic if Doom II never happened.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Hey guys I've been playing heretic for years. I don't understand all the fuzz about Doom? I've played it 2 hours before I got extremely bored, I have no idea why do people like this game that much; I beat it and could never replay it again because I fell asleep.

 

1) Monsters are imp, Flying imp, Imp with more hp, Imp with rockets and whoa imp with no projectile and slower attack!

2) Shotgunners are pretty annoying and take no skill to kill me.

3) Why are the weapons toys? I can't feel my shotgun or chaingun being strong because am using Toy R Us weapons to kill demons.

4) I got sick of the terrible palette. Brown or green with red or white rarely thrown into the mix?

5) That BFG weapon must be bugged, sometimes it deletes entire screen of monsters and others it can't even kill a caco.

6) Can't look around or carry items? 

7) Horrible music that only hippies can like.

8) No fun stuff like scrolling lava rivers, also explosive pods >>> barrels.

 

I can see why people might like that game, But I have no idea how can anyone replay it when heretic has a ton more variety and the gameplay is more fun.

 

Edit : Also forgot how terrible the last boss was, worst map ever!

[savagegrant]

On 21/10/2017 at 5:42 AM, gtsgreece said:

Comparing the two games is like a Nevermind/In Utero debate.

I don't know about that. Every track on Nevermind is great. In Utero does have some filler. :P

 

As for Heretic (or Hairy Dick as I call it,) I can't really fault it in any major way. It's a worthy companion of Doom's, especially the first episode.

[Lila Feuer]

1 hour ago, Pegg said:

Hey guys I've been playing heretic for years. I don't understand all the fuzz about Doom? I've played it 2 hours before I got extremely bored, I have no idea why do people like this game that much; I beat it and could never replay it again because I fell asleep.

 

1) Monsters are imp, Flying imp, Imp with more hp, Imp with rockets and whoa imp with no projectile and slower attack!

2) Shotgunners are pretty annoying and take no skill to kill me.

3) Why are the weapons toys? I can't feel my shotgun or chaingun being strong because am using Toy R Us weapons to kill demons.

4) I got sick of the terrible palette. Brown or green with red or white rarely thrown into the mix?

5) That BFG weapon must be bugged, sometimes it deletes entire screen of monsters and others it can't even kill a caco.

6) Can't look around or carry items? 

7) Horrible music that only hippies can like.

8) No fun stuff like scrolling lava rivers, also explosive pods >>> barrels.

 

I can see why people might like that game, But I have no idea how can anyone replay it when heretic has a ton more variety and the gameplay is more fun.

 

Edit : Also forgot how terrible the last boss was, worst map ever!

[MasterRhan]

Heretic is a gimmicky version of Doom.

 

[Da Werecat]

5 hours ago, Gez said:

It's more that Doom got to be redefined by having id iterate over the original design; while Raven was more ambitious and decided to make a completely different game instead.

 

Imagine the comparisons between Doom and Heretic if Doom II never happened.

Or you can twist it like that. But now we'll have to insult Heretic all over again.

[[McD] James]

What's all this jazz about D'Sparil being a terrible boss battle? E3M8 is a fantastic level, and the music fits it perfectly. 

[Da Werecat]

I thought it was Korax people hated? D'Sparil usually gets praise in my experience.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

52 minutes ago, Ajora said:

What's all this jazz about D'Sparil being a terrible boss battle? E3M8 is a fantastic level, and the music fits it perfectly. 

That's dis being a terrible ending for the Doom 1, Not D'sparil.

[galileo31dos01]

4 hours ago, Ajora said:

What's all this jazz about D'Sparil being a terrible boss battle? E3M8 is a fantastic level, and the music fits it perfectly.

The boss battle in E3M8 is easy on regular mode, but on fast mode D'Sparil goes crrrazy, constantly teleporting from one point to another and summoning disciples. That's how it gets interesting in my opinion.  

[Lila Feuer]

4 hours ago, Ajora said:

What's all this jazz about D'Sparil being a terrible boss battle? E3M8 is a fantastic level, and the music fits it perfectly. 

D'Sparil is the best Serpent Rider fight in Heretic/Hexen, while Korax is easily the worst and pathetically easy. Eidolon's okay though!

[[McD] James]

52 minutes ago, galileo31dos01 said:

The boss battle in E3M8 is easy on regular mode, but on fast mode D'Sparil goes crrrazy, constantly teleporting from one point to another and summoning disciples. That's how it gets interesting in my opinion.  

 

D'Sparil is also pretty fun to summon as an ally via console commands when you're in the mood for messing around. 

[Not Jabba]

2 hours ago, Ajora said:

 

D'Sparil is also pretty fun to summon as an ally via console commands when you're in the mood for messing around. 

If you summon him as an ally and he dies, does it kill all monsters in the level?

[[McD] James]

Just now, Not Jabba said:

If you summon him as an ally and he dies, does it kill all monsters in the level?

 

Not that I recall. 

[galileo31dos01]

21 minutes ago, Ajora said:

 

Not that I recall. 

I think it does happen, some weeks ago I summoned him as a friend and when he died, everything else suddenly died. For this reason I couldn't tell how many of them are necessary to kill a cyberdemon/spiderdemon.