Wolfenstein 2: The New Colossus

[R1ck]

On 10/30/2017 at 9:02 AM, MrGlide said:

Hey, Playing an alternate history wolfenstein game inside of an alternate history wolfenstein game is cool as hell.

fucking meta

[MrSkeltal]

The combat in this game is on par with the rest of the games in the franchise, they were all hitscanner heavy and encouraged running between cover. RTCW was way more punishing than this.

[Kristian Nebula]

Completed it the day before yesterday. Overall a great experience, very similar to TNO. Still need to finish off a few überkommanders. Gameplay felt very similar to TNO&TOB. I was completely blown away about Roswell, as there was so many things happening it could've very well been REAL. Machinegames have really outdone themselves on many levels. Lots of sneaking to kill commanders again, and it seemed that they put a limit to the amount of soldiers they can summon, whereas in TOB & TNO it seemed like an infinite amount of soldiers until the commander was killed. The last fight on the Ausmerzer somehow reminded me of Quake 4. :)

[MrGlide]

I'm I the only one who doesn't dislike Grace?

[Captain red pants]

I like Grace. I don't think I actively dislike any of the characters, though Wyatt got on my nerves a little bit.

[MrGlide]

I loved wyatts character in tno, in this game he was so different. He was just flat out annoying in this game.

[MrSkeltal]

7 hours ago, Nebula-Kristian said:

Completed it the day before yesterday. Overall a great experience, very similar to TNO. Still need to finish off a few überkommanders. Gameplay felt very similar to TNO&TOB. I was completely blown away about Roswell, as there was so many things happening it could've very well been REAL. Machinegames have really outdone themselves on many levels. Lots of sneaking to kill commanders again, and it seemed that they put a limit to the amount of soldiers they can summon, whereas in TOB & TNO it seemed like an infinite amount of soldiers until the commander was killed. The last fight on the Ausmerzer somehow reminded me of Quake 4. :)

Commander enemy waves in TOB/TNO were finite, they were less than the ones in this game can call in fact. The developers said as much during interviews.

[MrGlide]

Ya, depending how far you where at in the map would effect how enemies would spawn. all the enemie spawn points for extras or typically on the sides of the map, the unuasable doors and such. You could force less enemies to spawn by being aggressive and pushing forward quickly, and if you camped it would cause more enemies to spawn because you're allowing them to.

[Kristian Nebula]

15 hours ago, MrSkeltal said:

Commander enemy waves in TOB/TNO were finite, they were less than the ones in this game can call in fact. The developers said as much during interviews.

Ok, I was suspecting that - that's why I put that they seemed infinite. I was camping a lot before changing into silent kills and going for the commander silently :D

[dsm]

On 11/2/2017 at 5:51 AM, DooM_RO said:

 My controversial opinion on the matter is that the Wolfenstein series has never been a classic shooter in the vein of Doom or Duke 3D and it ultimately boils down to one reason. 

 

Nazis.

 

Think about it, in a game like Doom you are constantly dodging projectiles and prioritizing enemies. In Wolfenstein, almost every enemy is a variation of the Chaingunner, because of the setting. Imagine fighting only Chaingunners in Doom. You would cower behind cover and pick enemies one by one and speed is no longer important. 

 

Despite that, I think this kind of gameplay suits Wolfenstein. It should be different from Doom and Quake. I bet a game that has just hitscanners is quite hard to balance.

This is a very good point, but I would like to point out that most of Wolfenstein 3-D did not constantly assail you with "Chaingunners"; most enemies had single-shot weapons and very obvious tells that they were drawing a bead on you, telling you to find cover quickly.

The SS guy used to be the only non-Boss enemy with a machinegun-type weapon and he was essentially a high-level enemy.

 

In addition, the enemies, while basic, were still quite distinctive, with unique yells and cries for each enemy type and distinctly coloured uniforms and helmets/hats to tell them apart easily. Some enemies were quicker on the draw and some of them moved faster.

 

I find that Wolfenstein games made in the 'new' millennium suffer from the problem of having way too many enemies with rapid-fire weapons (making them feel more generic) and insisting on having them be really fast on the draw and ridiculously accurate.

This forces the game design of making the player more of a tank, whereas in Wolf3d, you were kinda squishy. I've never really liked this game design of making the player a damage sponge, because it makes me feel like I suck at playing FPS games and that I apparently "don't know how to use cover". Wolfenstein 3-D made you feel good, because you had a decent chance at clearing an area without taking any shots, but I will grant that the "tactics" you needed to use to achieve this were pretty basic and not the most fun gameplay in the world (camp near a doorway and wait for the stupid Nazis to poke their head in).

 

Also worth noting is that the Human enemies in the newer games come across as pretty samey with the same basic AI behavior, samey hitpoints and samey reactions to getting shot. It doesn't even matter that they have different faces, helmets and uniforms, because they're basically all the same enemy type. I know this is probably to make it seem more realistic, but I think it's doing the gameplay a disservice.

[DooM_RO]

@dsm

 

Thing is, even Blade of Agony is guilty of this!

 

I think the gameplay of Wolf3D only works in a low-resolution game that is obviously not realistic. It would be very strange to see that kind of gameplay in a realistic game.

[dsm]

Maybe.

Obviously, you can't port the Wolf3d gameplay straight into a modern engine and expect it to work, but does that really mean that you couldn't evolve on it and move it in a different direction than the generic CoD-like AI we've been seeing ever since 2000-2001?

 

I've noticed that the Possessed Soldiers in Doom 2016, while supposed to act in a military manner, don't really act like real soldiers. They don't run for cover and they can fire on the move to mention a couple of examples.

I bring this up, because I feel that video game Soldier enemies don't need to act realistic. Rather, they need to act in a way that sells the avarage person on the notion that they're trained military guys within the game's own universe. This means you could design the AI to be more fun, which I think is far more important than "realism factor", especially in a game series like Wolfenstein, because it never really was all that realistic to begin with.

 

Obviously, a Wolfenstein game would need to have enemies take cover and move between cover, but you could, theoretically speaking, still have them poke out from cover and take aim for half a second before letting loose. You could have enemy types that are less combat trained and less adept at handling their firearms; no need to make every soldier a razor-sharp elite trooper, but keep those as higher-tier enemy types, so that when they do show up, you'd feel genuinely threatened.

 

And strictly speaking, the guns don't have to be 100 per cent hitscan either - real guns aren't "hitscan" as you're no doubt aware of. They just fire really fast projectiles, but they still move slow enough that hitting a moving target can be pretty challenging; this could maybe be exploited a bit better to make the gameplay more servicable.

[DooM_RO]

2 hours ago, dsm said:

Maybe.

 

I've noticed that the Possessed Soldiers in Doom 2016, while supposed to act in a military manner, don't really act like real soldiers. They don't run for cover and they can fire on the move to mention a couple of examples.

I bring this up, because I feel that video game Soldier enemies don't need to act realistic. Rather, they need to act in a way that sells the avarage person on the notion that they're trained military guys within the game's own universe. This means you could design the AI to be more fun, which I think is far more important than "realism factor", especially in a game series like Wolfenstein, because it never really was all that realistic to begin with.

 

Obviously, a Wolfenstein game would need to have enemies take cover and move between cover, but you could, theoretically speaking, still have them poke out from cover and take aim for half a second before letting loose. You could have enemy types that are less combat trained and less adept at handling their firearms; no need to make every soldier a razor-sharp elite trooper, but keep those as higher-tier enemy types, so that when they do show up, you'd feel genuinely threatened.

 

And strictly speaking, the guns don't have to be 100 per cent hitscan either - real guns aren't "hitscan" as you're no doubt aware of. They just fire really fast projectiles, but they still move slow enough that hitting a moving target can be pretty challenging; this could maybe be exploited a bit better to make the gameplay more servicable.

 

1. The Possessed Soldiers of Doom 2016 have slow-moving projectiles that are dodgeable, which facilitates skillful gameplay and encourages the player to move around the battlefield, as opposed to taking cover. Id understood this but were perhaps a bit overzealous in its execution because hitscanners are curiously missing. The only way to facilitate classic shooter gameplay in a classic shooter is to have hitscanning enemies be dangerous but easily disposable. That is also a reason why Doom is more popular than Blood and Duke 3D too, the hitscanners in those games take too long to kill. Anything more than a Shotgun blast at medium range is too much. Just think how Doom would be if Sergeants took only ONE extra shotgun blast to die. It would make a huge difference.

 

Soldiers in a Wolfenstein game (particularly one that wants to be believable, despite its wacky premise) need to act in a way that seems realistic. Not only that but they need to be a threat to be reckoned with because if they are not, the quality of the story will suffer too. You cannot make them fragile glass cannons like Former Sergeants or Chaingunners. If this were any other enemy than Nazis then your suggestions would work but even in the wacky setting of the New Order people have certain expectations from nazi soldiers. That means that the majority of enemies have to use some kind of hitscanning weapon. In short, Wolfenstein HAS to be realistic in some regard because Nazis are a realistic enemy (that is partly where the tension and horror comes from in the game!) and people have certain expectations from them. In a game like Doom, you really can do anything.

 

2. It does not matter whether real guns are not 100% hitscan. The point is that you cannot dodge bullets. If you cannot dodge bullets then you will need to take cover and rely on some kind of regenerating health. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by DooM_RO

[Graf Zahl]

I'd rather take a game that makes the combat enjoyable instead of one that sticks to realism and kills all fun.

[dsm]

4 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

 

1. The Possessed Soldiers of Doom 2016 have slow-moving projectiles that are dodgeable, which facilitates skillful gameplay and encourages the player to move around the battlefield, as opposed to taking cover. Id understood this but were perhaps a bit overzealous in its execution because hitscanners are curiously missing. The only way to facilitate classic shooter gameplay in a classic shooter is to have hitscanning enemies be dangerous but easily disposable. That is also a reason why Doom is more popular than Blood and Duke 3D too, the hitscanners in those games take too long to kill. Anything more than a Shotgun blast at medium range is too much. Just think how Doom would be if Sergeants took only ONE extra shotgun blast to die. It would make a huge difference.

Yes I know very well that the Possessed Troops fire dodgeable projectiles, but that wasn't my point at all; I was trying to illustrate that I don't think video game Nazi soldiers need to move with their guns in raised firing positions, ready to fire at a milisecond's notice like real soldiers, because I don't consider the realism aspect all that important and would rather have them act in a way that makes the gameplay fun.

 

Wolfenstein 3-D already has the low-hp enemy types down, so that's not really a problem, but the instantly-return-fire-with-super-accuracy needs to go in my opinion, because I've never found it all that fun.

Soldiers in a Wolfenstein game (particularly one that wants to be believable, despite its wacky premise) need to act in a way that seems realistic. Not only that but they need to be a threat to be reckoned with because if they are not, the quality of the story will suffer too. You cannot make them fragile glass cannons like Former Sergeants or Chaingunners. If this were any other enemy than Nazis then your suggestions would work but even in the wacky setting of the New Order people have certain expectations from nazi soldiers. That means that the majority of enemies have to use some kind of hitscanning weapon. In short, Wolfenstein HAS to be realistic in some regard because Nazis are a realistic enemy (that is partly where the tension and horror comes from in the game!) and people have certain expectations from them. In a game like Doom, you really can do anything.

So the enemy soldiers need to act realistic, but it's ok that the Player can take a million bullets to the face without dying, hip-fire a ridiculously over-sized minigun and has limited regenerative powers? Ok, if you say so, but I'm afraid I'm not feeling myself getting overly convinced.

I maintain that the soldiers can be a threat if the player has less hp (can take less hits, which makes you feel more Human and thus makes the combat feel a lot more immersive) and enemy placement is well done so they can surprise an unaware player. I don't think less realistic AI will hamper the story if the story really matters that much, because I find that stories can be immersive if the events themselves and the characters are engaging and if the story obey the rules set by the game universe itself (which can be anything).

2. It does not matter whether real guns are not 100% hitscan. The point is that you cannot dodge bullets. If you cannot dodge bullets then you will need to take cover and rely on some kind of regenerating health.

Normal Humans cannot directly dodge bullets, but hitting a moving target is still challenging, because the shooter has to compensate for gravity, wind and projectile speed, which means that there is a margin of error on the part of the shooter.

In the Machine Games Wolfenstein series, B.J. Blazcowicz is pretty Super-Human, as I kinda touched upon earlier in this post, so it really isn't much of a stretch to have B.J. Blazcowicz be a Super-Human in an ability to run much faster than any normal Human and thus better able to dodge bullets, maybe you could even give him super-Human, subtle, precognitive senses that makes him able to better sense incoming bullets and thus "see" them better or some shit like that.

 

I honestly find the ability to take millions of gunshot wounds throughout a game far more immersive-breaking than the ability to dodge bullets if I'm being completely honest, which means that I wouldn't find it as immersion-breaking if the Nazis don't act a 100 per cent realistic.

And to go back to your claim about making the Nazis threatening, they pretty much were in Wolfenstein 3-D despite their simplistic AI, especially if they blindsided you, because their guns did significant damage to you then.

 

You mentioned Blade of Agony Earlier. I've found that despite moving slow as a turtle in that mod, you can still dodge projectiles if you're far enough away and I think it works in that mod's favor, because it introduces a minor skill element without removing the need for cover. Making the player faster would make long-range dodging a little easier, but would not necessarily make the game a cakewalk as you'd still want to avoid being shot at from close range and you'd still want to use cover a lot (which would still make the gameplay feel different from Doom and Quake because the projectiles are fast).

Making the player unable to use armor would, theoretically, also make the player squishier and make the game more tense, because then you really don't want to get shot.

[MrGlide]

I personally find Wolf 2 to be really easy for the most part. quite a bit easier than TNO and TOB.

[Kristian Nebula]

22 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

The point is that you cannot dodge bullets.

Neo disagrees.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Nebula-Kristian

[MrGlide]

I think the thing that makes wolfs hitscan heavy gunplay quite a bit funn is all the enemies have a delay when the see you, to when they are shooting at you. if you're quick enough you can always kill them before they shoot.

[Kristian Nebula]

1 minute ago, MrGlide said:

I think the thing that makes wolfs hitscan heavy gunplay quite a bit funn is all the enemies have a delay when the see you, to when they are shooting at you. if you're quick enough you can always kill them before they shoot.

Yeah, and combat takedowns make it even more fun. You can take them head-on when sprinting at them and take them down with the axe :)

 

[june gloom]

I rather like Grace.

 

I rather dislike the game forcing me to update my drivers which caused artifacting in-game.

[BluePineapple72]

So the preview for the DLC just came out, and imo, it was very meh. 

 

Nothing really stood out to me at all, the environments all seem to be reused/empty and the gameplay didn't really stand out (other than the stealth room on the third part, that room was cool), but hopefully this is just with Episode 0 and the final product will actually be something unique and worthwhile. 

 

 

[R1ck]

Wyatt ending is epic. But I like Fergus' ending. It's cheesy.

[Mr_Fox]

I like the look of the smg in the new wolfenstein

[june gloom]

You know what's awesome? The game crashing at the end of the level, then when I try to restart it it won't let me until it updates, after which I'm told I have to start the level over again since my save is from an earlier version. Fuck this straight earth.

[DooM_RO]

Just played Episode 0. Kind of mediocre. I hope it gets better. 

[MrGlide]

episode 0 was ok I guess. There wasn't anything particularly interesting about it.

[Kristian Nebula]

2 hours ago, dethtoll said:

You know what's awesome? The game crashing at the end of the level, then when I try to restart it it won't let me until it updates, after which I'm told I have to start the level over again since my save is from an earlier version. Fuck this straight earth.

Yeah, that is very annoying. But just like in Zdoom or any other doom port, if you change the version, old savegames won't work. Luckily I was on the U-Boat when it did the update for me (didn't have game crashing though).

[june gloom]

I'm aware of that, cupcake. And I wouldn't have minded the update if it had happened at the beginning of a level. I'm just fucking irritated that I have to go through the entire nuclear bunker stage again because I didn't find it as fun as some of the other missions so far.

[Teivman]

Does anybody remember Wolfenstein 2009? I just Re-Installed it today and it really isn't as bad as people say it is.

[DooM_RO]

4 minutes ago, MrD!zone said:

Does anybody remember Wolfenstein 2009? I just Re-Installed it today and it really isn't as bad as people say it is.

 

It's not bad, just mediocre.