I think I have figured out why the later levels are more linear.

It's actually very simple. It all boils down to two words:

 

Glory Kills.

 

Now you may be wondering "What do Glory Kills have to do with secrets and exploration? Glory Kills are strictly about combat!". Well that is not really true. Glory Kills are the primary way of refilling your Health and Ammo and despite the fact that there and pickups scattered throughout the levels they feel secondary to Glory Kills. In fact, they feel like an afterthought added at the last minute. All this has a tremendous impact on resource management and therefore also exploration.

 

So if putting secrets with Health and Ammo is now redundant then what is left is to put Weapons, Upgrade Points and Argent Caches. The thing is, you can't do that the whole game. Sooner or later you will run out of features to implement. By the beginning of the second half of the game, you already have most, if not all of the weapons and important upgrades. The only things left to put in secrets are Powerups, Ammo for Special Weapons and leftover Upgrade Points for people who missed them earlier. The consequence of this is that the latter levels feel simpler compared to the first ones, instead of more complex.

 

The solution to this is not to remove Glory Kills in the next game because Id would never do that and to be honest, it is a really cool system but I think it should be heavily rebalanced. So, here is what I propose:

 

Have it so the Glory Kills only give you 5 health points for weak monsters and 10 for bigger monsters. That way, the Glory Kills feel more like a supplement and that would allow the developers to put Health in Secrets too.  The current system also gives you a fuck-ton of Health whenever you are under 25 HP. This is actually a cool feature but it feels way too powerful, especially during the beginning of the game. A solution would be lock it behind Suit Upgrades and make it cost 10 points. Also, it should only refill 50 health and have a lengthy cooldown.

 

Glory Kills should be the primary (but not only) way of refilling your Basic Ammo types such like Shells and Bullets, the workhorse Ammo of Doom games. The problem is that Advanced Ammo like Rockets and Plasma Cells is just as plentiful as basic Ammo. Most Classic Doom maps give a very generous amount of Shells and Bullets to the player and I think Glory Kills are perfect for supplying the player with Basic Ammo. By making Advanced Ammo rarer, you will also force the player to pay more attention to the environment and the developer will have more opportunities to place secrets. I still think Glory Kills should be able to give players Advanced Ammo but a LOT less of it. There should be a similar Suit Upgrade as the one I proposed for Health and even then, you shouldn't be getting more than 3-4 rockets and 40 Cells from GKs in a fight.

 

Of course, this not only affects the overall structure of the levels but also the fights. I think the developers are a bit too obsessed with the "push-forward combat" concept. While it is indeed true that you die if you stop moving in Doom, the situation can always change in a Doom game. Now to be clear, you never run away in a game like Doom but in the classic games if you make a mistake during combat, you will rapidly switch to aggressive-defensive mode. Meaning that you will be like "Oh shit, I am low on Health. Gotta find some." or "I am in a cramped room full of Shotgun Guys and I only have Rockets. Oh look, there is a bunch of Ammo and Shells over there. I am going to run over there." Alternatively, the player might keep dying in a room or certain arena but is sure that if only they had a certain kind of ammo, the encounter would be a lotmore manageable. If they are skilled, they might even realize that they can finish the encounter unscathed. Opportunities for skillful gameplay like this makes the player FEEL GOOD, which is what Doom is all about.

 

Skillful play is not about it being mandatory in a game like Doom (like it is in Dark Souls or Cuphead) but rather playing the game in the most efficient way possible. I often compare this to Mario. You don't have to finish the level in the optimal way but if you do, you will be rewarded and you will feel good about it. Ammo management is roughly the same in Doom. You can finish the game using only the Shotgun, SSG and Chaingun but not only will it not be as fun (from a visual and variety point of view) but it will also not be as efficient. By making Resource Pickups more important again, you will provide the players the opportunity for an additional layer of skillful movement and resource management. 

Edited by DooM_RO
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Glory Kills are just the symptom, not the cause. The whole design philosophy behind new Doom is to dumb-down the original into a relatively mindless action game. "Push-forward combat" is just a euphemism for "straight-forward gameplay." That's a reflection of the times. Game-design philosophy these days is about directing the player from point to point without delay or interference. Resource exploration is contrary to that.

 

Given all the (undeserved, in my opinion) praise new Doom got, I highly doubt they will change anything about this. In all the reviews I read, I don't recall anyone reflecting on how much more of a linear game it was compared to the original, or how much of the exploration and resource management had been simplified/eliminated.

 

 

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Burial at the Sea DLC received some criticism for trying to make BioShock Infinite less linear.

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Interesting observations and not a bad theory.

 

I am wondering though, if the increased linearity is due to making sure the player finds the remaining Elite Guards and other upgrade items, why is it that in a level like The Necropolis, you don't at least give the player the option of choosing which key to go for first? You need both keys to progress, which ensures that you will need to enter both teleporters at some point, but the order in which you take each key area hardly matters.

 

I feel little choices like that could be worked into most maps, while still ensuring the player enters every room in the map.

Glory Kills should be the primary (but not only) way of refilling your Basic Ammo types such like Shells and Bullets, the workhorse Ammo of Doom games. The problem is that Advanced Ammo like Rockets and Plasma Cells is just as plentiful as basic Ammo.

I would disagree that shells and bullets are merely "workhorse" ammo and that cells and rockets are "advanced ammo" in the new game; the new plasma rifle is very much a low-level workhorse weapon that uses what you call "advanced ammo" and the rocket launcher is kinda weak until you get mods and upgrades for it. Also, the "workhorse" ammo is used in high-level weapons like the SSG and the Chaingun; very powerful high-end weapons that use ammo shared by respective low-level guns.

 

There no longer is a clear "high end ammo type" like in the old games (except maybe fuel for the chainsaw and the BFG cells), discouraging hoarding of something like cells, because the game wants to encourage you to use everything you've got whenever you can, so your idea of making some ammo types harder to get wouldn't really work with this design.

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@dsm

 

I mean that it was the "workhorse" ammo in the old games. I consider the Shotguns of Doom and 2016 to be the "workhorse" weapons, even the SSG. Great in every situation but not necessarily ideal all the time. I think the game would be a lot more interesting if it was balanced so you could theoretically finish it just with the Shotguns and HAR. Plasma is still high end because it is used by the Gauss Cannon.

 

I also think the Plasma Gun and maybe even the Rocket Launcher are not as effective because the ammo is so plentiful.

 

Another reason I think the Plasma Gun is kind of weak is that it doesn't really have a place between the HAR and Chaingun. In my opinion, the HAR is the "real" Chaingun of Doom 2016 because it behaves exactly like the classic Chaingun due to the fact that it is a long-range needler. I'm not kidding, it feels EXACTLY the same even though it looks different. The 2016 Chaingun has damage comparable to the classic Plasma Rifle. That puts the 2016 Plasma Gun in a tough position because it doesn't really have a place. I honestly don't know how it could be rebalanced to make it more useful.

 

One drastic measure would be to just throw out the Chaingun and leave the HAR in its place because, as I said, it is the REAL Chaingun. That way, the Plasma Gun could be heavily buffed. Or the Plasma Gun could have an upgrade that charges it and fires a spread of Plasma projectiles, like the alt fire in the Brutal Doom version. Ulitmately, I think this problem stems from another unlikely source. The contrast between the firepower of the Classic Chaingun and its appearance. Now in the classic game you only see part of the gun so it never feels weak but that perspective would never work in a 3D game. Just look at how awkward the classic perspective option is. My point is, the firepower of the Chaingun is much more suited to the aesthetics of the HAR. If the Chaingun was the only hitscanning weapon and had the firepower of the HAR, it would feel very weak and that is not good in a game like Doom but you also kind of can't get rid of the Chaingun because people would sperg out of control. Because of this, the game has a weapon it doesn't really need and makes the Plasma Gun weaker.

 

Honestly, it's little stuff like this that prevent Doom 2016 from being a true classic. If I had modding tools at my disposal I would make all kinds of small changes. Hell, I would even make a mod based on the contents of this thread...

Edited by DooM_RO

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5 hours ago, TheGamePhilosophe said:

Glory Kills are just the symptom, not the cause. The whole design philosophy behind new Doom is to dumb-down the original into a relatively mindless action game. "Push-forward combat" is just a euphemism for "straight-forward gameplay." That's a reflection of the times. Game-design philosophy these days is about directing the player from point to point without delay or interference. Resource exploration is contrary to that.

 

Given all the (undeserved, in my opinion) praise new Doom got, I highly doubt they will change anything about this. In all the reviews I read, I don't recall anyone reflecting on how much more of a linear game it was compared to the original, or how much of the exploration and resource management had been simplified/eliminated.

 

 

I have read this post 3 times and I still have no idea what you are talking about. Did we play the same Doom games? Are you seriously trying to tell me that Doom 1 & 2 are anything but relatively mindless action? Just because they aren't linear doesn't mean they aren't mindless. Like wow, golly gee I sure feel smart having cleared out the entire level of enemies and then spent 45 minutes lost in a maze trying to find the exit and the keys. And I also feel smart for having decided to go 'left' instead of 'right'. Wooooo some heavy thinking there.

 

I still like Doom 1 and 2, they are fun action games, but please, don't try to say they're sophisticated or advanced and require extreme amounts of thought. They don't.

Edited by Praetor
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7 hours ago, Praetor said:

I have read this post 3 times and I still have no idea what you are talking about. Did we play the same Doom games? Are you seriously trying to tell me that Doom 1 & 2 are anything but relatively mindless action? Just because they aren't linear doesn't mean they aren't mindless. Like wow, golly gee I sure feel smart having cleared out the entire level of enemies and then spent 45 minutes lost in a maze trying to find the exit and the keys. And I also feel smart for having decided to go 'left' instead of 'right'. Wooooo some heavy thinking there.

 

I still like Doom 1 and 2, they are fun action games, but please, don't try to say they're sophisticated or advanced and require extreme amounts of thought. They don't.

 

Many people try to make the originals like they are Dark Souls when in fact they were much closer to Mario. I of course speak of the vanilla experience (especially E1), there are obviously a ton of really hard WADs. As I said before, in Dark Souls skill is mandatory while in Mario it is more of a way to make the player feel good by making the flow of the game more fluid. 

Edited by DooM_RO
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8 hours ago, Praetor said:

I still like Doom 1 and 2, they are fun action games, but please, don't try to say they're sophisticated or advanced and require extreme amounts of thought. They don't.

I feel like the guy must've somehow played through both of them while completely missing both shotguns, leading to him constantly running out of ammo because the world-ending flood of shells were completely useless.

 

Doom 2 honestly shows how the more linearity of Doom '16 isn't really a cardinal sin, considering that most of the exploration later in the game basically boils down to trying to figure out where to go moreso than for rewards due to the fact that you've already got all the weapons, a backpack, and more than enough ammo just through playing the game normally. Early on it can be nice to find a cache of ammo or grab a weapon early, and finding a hidden computer map, berserk, soulsphere, armor, or megasphere never loses its appeal, but most other items are only effective if you get them while in combat or directly before entering combat, lessening the value of them when found in secrets. Meanwhile, all those items that are good secrets in the late game? Also pop up pretty regularly out of them, too, meaning you might find a secret containing stuff of literal no value for you unless you trudge backward through the map later on to grab it.

 

So, yeah. The point about the Necropolis is a good one, but it's not like this issue in general isn't something that Doom '16 shares with its predecessors. Hell, the only one which escapes it is the original Doom, and that's because of its episodic structure made it so that finding a BFG in a secret was still very much a reward even if you're 80% through the game.

Edited by Arctangent
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@Arctangent

 

It's not just about the ammo and pickups, but also about making the levels more interesting from a layout perspective. Secrets have a bit of "I shouldn't be here but I am" feel to them and I fucking love that but if the reward becomes less and less relevant then finding the secret also feels less good and I repeat, Doom is all about making the player feel good.

Edited by DooM_RO
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I never suggested Doom was the Dark Souls of the FPS. It was nothing like Mario either.

 

On 10/30/2017 at 7:58 PM, Praetor said:

Are you seriously trying to tell me that Doom 1 & 2 are anything but relatively mindless action? Just because they aren't linear doesn't mean they aren't mindless. Like wow, golly gee I sure feel smart having cleared out the entire level of enemies and then spent 45 minutes lost in a maze trying to find the exit and the keys. And I also feel smart for having decided to go 'left' instead of 'right'. Wooooo some heavy thinking there.

 

You make my point for me. The simple fact that you got lost in the maze and had to figure your way out proves that the game made you exercise your mind. It might not have been reading Henry James, but it was something. And to my point, something more than the brain-dead gameplay of new Doom where they literally mark the way forward with green lights.

 

I also feel that the fact that you could get lost in classic Doom added a lot to the overall feel of the game. Same goes for the arcane secrets.

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Just now, TheGamePhilosophe said:

I never suggested Doom was the Dark Souls of the FPS. It was nothing like Mario either.

 

 

You make my point for me. The simple fact that you got lost in the maze and had to figure your way out proves that the game made you exercise your mind. It might not have been reading Henry James, but it was something. And to my point, something more than the brain-dead gameplay of new Doom where they literally mark the way forward with green lights.

 

I also feel that the fact that you could get lost in classic Doom added a lot to the overall feel of the game. Same goes for the arcane secrets.

>He thinks getting lost in a maze for 45 minutes and running around doing trial and error until you get frustrated as fuck is exercising your mind

 

Yeah fuck that. Like I can't believe you are seriously trying to tell me this. Are you joking? If I'm playing an FPS game, I want to focus on the action, not get lost in a maze for 45 minutes getting more and more frustrated by the second that I can't get back to the action.

 

That's not exercising your mind, that's exercising your patience for bullshit.

 

And while Doom 2016 may not be perfect, at the very least it cuts that stupid shit out and has a tight focus on what you came there to do: destroy the fuck out of Hell's armies. Not get lost in a stupid retarded maze. I can't believe this is actually a problem to you.

Edited by Praetor

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@DooM_RO I think you could still make the plasma rifle fit in your version by letting it fill a sort of utility role. Its stun-bomb and AOE/nova attachments give it some functionality that you don't see in the other weapons.

 

@Praetor I think the maze is a bad example. There's definitely more decision making in Doom 1/2 compared to Doom 2016. That doesn't make the classics into some kind of a high-level chess game, but it's still something.

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6 hours ago, TheGamePhilosophe said:

I never suggested Doom was the Dark Souls of the FPS. It was nothing like Mario either.

 

 

You make my point for me. The simple fact that you got lost in the maze and had to figure your way out proves that the game made you exercise your mind. It might not have been reading Henry James, but it was something. And to my point, something more than the brain-dead gameplay of new Doom where they literally mark the way forward with green lights.

 

I also feel that the fact that you could get lost in classic Doom added a lot to the overall feel of the game. Same goes for the arcane secrets.

 

I have always found finishing a level without getting hit at all and killing all enemies in the most efficient manner to be similar to finishing a level in Mario without stopping, meaning finishing it in the most effective manner. 

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3 hours ago, GuyMcBrofist said:

@DooM_RO I think you could still make the plasma rifle fit in your version by letting it fill a sort of utility role. Its stun-bomb and AOE/nova attachments give it some functionality that you don't see in the other weapons.

 

I dunno. The Plasma Gun is one of my favorite weapons in the classics, where it is a force to be reckoned with. Maybe instead of the AOE, you could get a passive upgrade that gradually increases the firepower the more you hold down the trigger.

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On 30/10/2017 at 8:09 AM, dmg_64 said:

Burial at the Sea DLC received some criticism for trying to make BioShock Infinite less linear.

Things are simple, you just can never satisfy everyone.

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@DooM_RO:

 

I have now read your response multiple times and carefully, but I'm afraid I'm still having some trouble following your line of reasoning in places :

 

On 10/30/2017 at 8:32 PM, DooM_RO said:

@dsm

 

I mean that it was the "workhorse" ammo in the old games. I consider the Shotguns of Doom and 2016 to be the "workhorse" weapons, even the SSG. Great in every situation but not necessarily ideal all the time. I think the game would be a lot more interesting if it was balanced so you could theoretically finish it just with the Shotguns and HAR. Plasma is still high end because it is used by the Gauss Cannon.s of this thread...

Erm, the Gauss Cannon is not ideal all the time either, nor is the Chaingun. That does not make either weapon "not high-end", and it doesn't make shells or bullets "not high-end" ammo, because they are both required for weapons that rank up there alongside the Gauss.

 

The Gauss Cannon is heavily dependent on the player being level-headed enough to aim with precision and while the Siege Mode takes the sharp edges of some of that precision requirement, it locks the player in place (or, when fully upgraded, massively slows them down), making players really vulnerable.

 

The Chaingun requires you to keep your aim trained at the target you wish to take down and doesn't deal so much damage as to instantly obliterate the threat, and even the Mobile Turret mode doesn't have the "instant elimination of threat" capability that you'd get with the SSG or the Gauss Cannon, while it also slows the player down.

 

And while the SSG doesn't get a mod, once fully upgraded, it adds a layer of flexibility you wouldn't get with the classic Doom SSG, which makes it unbelievably devastating in the hands of a skilled user. I've found that the SSG works surprisingly well against Barons of Hell, the highest level non-Boss enemy in the game to name just an example, but you can use it effectively against virtually anything (though certain enemy types, you'd probably prefer a more distant means of taking them down).



I also think the Plasma Gun and maybe even the Rocket Launcher are not as effective because the ammo is so plentiful.

Whu...? How does "amount of ammo" even factor into their usefulness? I don't follow.

 

The Plasma Rifle is not as effective, because Doom 2016 enemies are damage-spongier and move about more (and often faster), making a slower-projectile weapon very hard to use effectively. This is offset somewhat by the weapon's high rate of fire, but that means that if you limit the ammo supply, people just become afraid of using it, because they'll just run out of ammo without defeating all the enemies they intend to eliminate.

 

The Rocket Launcher is initially very weak to prevent the game from becoming too easy early on, but it is still an effective weapon when used properly. You can't carry an awful lot of ammo for it, so if you hit max ammo and can't pick up additional rockets, it's the game's way of telling you to "use the damn rocket launcher", while not giving you access to a seemingly endless supply that you can just spam like crazy (which happened occasionally in the old games).

Works for me.



Another reason I think the Plasma Gun is kind of weak is that it doesn't really have a place between the HAR and Chaingun. In my opinion, the HAR is the "real" Chaingun of Doom 2016 because it behaves exactly like the classic Chaingun due to the fact that it is a long-range needler. I'm not kidding, it feels EXACTLY the same even though it looks different. The 2016 Chaingun has damage comparable to the classic Plasma Rifle. That puts the 2016 Plasma Gun in a tough position because it doesn't really have a place. I honestly don't know how it could be rebalanced to make it more useful.

You are essentially correct, the Plasma Rifle is basically just kinda there mostly to fill a "Replacement Assault Rifle" role for when you're running out of bullets - I tend to use it against Hell Knights and Possessed Soldiers, because they present wider (and in the case of the Soldier, slower) targets and you can pile a nice amount of damage up with a steady stream, but I confess that it's more preference than conclusive knowledge (because I'm still unsure about this aspect).

The Plasma Rifle mostly comes into its own once you get the mods - I've found both mods to be invaluable and the primary fire backs those up well as a quick follow-up response.

The Chaingun kinda works where it is in my opinion, because it kinda solves an old problem: a huge balance gap between the plasma rifle and the BFG. Making the Chaingun into a "hitscan plasma gun" lessens that gap and the mods for it certainly help. And as you pointed out, the HAR fulfills the original Chaingun's role as a "needler". But making simply a more powerful Plasma Gun would not be enough of an excuse to make it a high-level weapon because Doom 2016 has fast-moving enemies. High-level weapons typically need to be simple to use and slow-projectile weapons are no longer viable in that position unless you give them a very wide "area-of-effect" that offsets the difficulty of hitting fast-moving enemies.



One drastic measure would be to just throw out the Chaingun and leave the HAR in its place because, as I said, it is the REAL Chaingun. That way, the Plasma Gun could be heavily buffed. Or the Plasma Gun could have an upgrade that charges it and fires a spread of Plasma projectiles, like the alt fire in the Brutal Doom version. Ulitmately, I think this problem stems from another unlikely source. The contrast between the firepower of the Classic Chaingun and its appearance. Now in the classic game you only see part of the gun so it never feels weak but that perspective would never work in a 3D game. Just look at how awkward the classic perspective option is. My point is, the firepower of the Chaingun is much more suited to the aesthetics of the HAR. If the Chaingun was the only hitscanning weapon and had the firepower of the HAR, it would feel very weak and that is not good in a game like Doom but you also kind of can't get rid of the Chaingun because people would sperg out of control. Because of this, the game has a weapon it doesn't really need and makes the Plasma Gun weaker.

You're damn right people would "sperg out" if the Chaingun was removed (I'm one of those people), but I'd "sperg out" too if there was no plasma gun. Weak or not, I love using the Doom 2016 Plasma Rifle, but it's carried solely on its mods.

 

I read your suggestion further down about an upgrade that builds additional damage the more you fire it, which is not a half-bad idea, so I'd add another random idea: give the regular plasma shots a tiny 'hint' of the "stun bomb's" ability to stun targets, so that it increasingly slows down (but not completely stuns) targets it hits.

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I rather think the reason that the later levels are more linear is because on modern games you work with a budget towards a deadline, and more time was spent making the first part of the game as good as it could be, because that's your first encounter and what draws you in. When music albums still were the thing (before streaming and the single oriented market) many albums would have most of their best singles first.

 

Just my 2 cents.

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That or maybe the level designers got bored and wanted to just finish the game. I notice in some games the further into the game the less complex it seems to get and more straightforward the levels are. Some exceptions though come to mind, like The Maw in Halo CE.

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6 hours ago, Nevander said:

That or maybe the level designers got bored and wanted to just finish the game. I notice in some games the further into the game the less complex it seems to get and more straightforward the levels are. Some exceptions though come to mind, like The Maw in Halo CE.

I don't see any reason why it couldn't be both.

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6 hours ago, Nevander said:

That or maybe the level designers got bored and wanted to just finish the game. I notice in some games the further into the game the less complex it seems to get and more straightforward the levels are. Some exceptions though come to mind, like The Maw in Halo CE.

Actually, this made me think of an interesting point: what if it's also to prevent the players from getting bored, or rather preventing play fatigue from overtaking them? Something I've just realized with my own play style is that if I'm skipping exploring nooks and crannies and using fast travel systems, it's almost always due to getting a significant ways into the game. Not to mention, I don't usually stick to finishing games with over like 20 hours of standard content simply because I reach a point where I don't muster up enough interest in it to bother.

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Speaking of fast travel, I actually hate that I have to rely on it so much in games like Fallout. I use it a lot when I need to go long distances but I'd love to do a playthrough of a Fallout game where I never use it to be even more realistic, like Hardcore mode extreme. Would it get boring? Yes very I'd imagine, but more realistic.

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On 11/3/2017 at 6:42 PM, Arctangent said:

Actually, this made me think of an interesting point: what if it's also to prevent the players from getting bored, or rather preventing play fatigue from overtaking them? Something I've just realized with my own play style is that if I'm skipping exploring nooks and crannies and using fast travel systems, it's almost always due to getting a significant ways into the game. Not to mention, I don't usually stick to finishing games with over like 20 hours of standard content simply because I reach a point where I don't muster up enough interest in it to bother.

 

Good point, the levels that I like and make are the really long ones with long periods of silence punctuated with brutal battles with a few surprise encounters here and there. So maybe something longer and more complex than the Foundry and Argent Facility would bore the average gamer, even Doomer. Still, I wish the later levels remained on par with the levels I mentioned.

Edited by DooM_RO
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I don't mind that some maps are linear, because it breaks up the game experience, and sometimes, keeping things more straightforward can come as a nice "break" from being given a lot of choices in the more sprawling maps. Linear maps can also work well as "psychological" build-up to something like a Boss battle, or your first trip to Hell (which I find the Argent Tower does quite well).

 

That said, I find there's a little too many strictly linear maps past the halfway mark of the game; I'd have preferred that the steady stream of linear maps that come later in the game had been broken up by one or two more-or-less non-linear maps. That is why I mentioned The Necropolis earlier - just that tiny little detail of letting you choose between two teleporters could have been enough to break up the steady stream of linearity before the last two maps (both of which have a decent reason to be linear); don't think it would have been difficult to implement.

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All they really needed to do was make Plasma and Rockets more rare (and their respective weapons more powerful) so that they could be placed in secrets as well as on the battlefield and sometimes from glory kills.

 

I mean there already is a secret in Lazarus Labs that is nothing but rockets (and admittedly an Elite Soldier) but because the player can get Rockets just fine from GKs it makes the secret rather pointless.

Edited by DooM_RO

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Chainsaw fuel and BFG cells already fulfill the purpose of map-limited resources, though. You don't really need to add more.

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16 hours ago, Arctangent said:

Chainsaw fuel and BFG cells already fulfill the purpose of map-limited resources, though. You don't really need to add more.

 

I don't agree. They are too plentiful and too easy to find. It could work if they were rare and found mostly in secrets.

 

In fact, I think this is a problem similar to other games. So you have a mechanic that is in principle very cool and interesting but is marred by the fact that the player can abuse it due to how the resource it uses is spread in the level/s. In Dishonored, the Blink ability is very cool BUT because the developers put too much mana in the game makes the ability LESS interesting. Why should I take time to explore the level and create my own style when it is so easy to abuse the Blink ability? Why should I look for ammo in Doom when I can just get it from Glory Kills/Chainsaws?

Edited by DooM_RO

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They should have just made ammo pickups like the old game and did away with fuel in exchange for not making the Chainsaw be instant kill.

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1 hour ago, Nevander said:

I'm speaking about a game I haven't played, because if I had played it I'd instantly realize that a rapid-fire melee weapon makes no sense in the context of how it plays.

 

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The way you "fix" quotes to try and force your opinion is starting to get annoying.

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I agree with @Arctangent's idea about making the maps more linear on purpose to prevent players from getting bored, but I have some ideas as to why players get bored in the first place... I'm in Argent D'Nur on my first playthrough, which is in UV, and about halfway through the game I was losing interest in starting up the game because I had most of the upgrades I wanted, and continuing to play was starting to feel like a chore.

 

As @DooM_RO has been stating, most of the ammo and health pickups are plentiful enough that exploring maps doesn't seem as required, or as interesting, and you're probably close to having most of the upgrades you want, so for the last few maps, I've just been running through trying to keep the gaps in between the battle arena sections as short as possible.

 

I have a few ideas as to how it could be better in the next game (fingers crossed):

 

- Make the maps less linear by giving players choices to take different paths, but allow players to manually save their game, so if they can restart from the fork in the road, rather than being restricted to their last checkpoint.

 

- While I like the fully upgraded Ammo Rune that allows for BFG drops, I think you should be able to store a maximum of 5 BFG shots at a time, but leave its ammo in secret areas, and maybe throw one in some of the very hard arena sections.

 

- There is a good portion of weapon and suit upgrades that I think are just "meh". You should be excited to get every single upgrade, and struggle as to which one to upgrade first. I currently have 26 weapon upgrade points and several mods I can apply these to, but I don't really care to. However, this is only useful if DooM_RO's idea for less ammo drops is implemented to force players to use other weapons (and want to upgrade them) or search around for their ammo of choice.

 

- I feel like armour is hard to come by (without the Armour Rune) so sticking more in secret areas would be great, and if the "less ammo drops" idea is implemented, this will make the Infinite Ammo Rune more useful and make armour more enticing to search for.

 

- I also think that weapon upgrades should be harder to come by (or the upgrades cost more).

 

- Personally, I'd like it if instead of upgrading the Runes through battle challenges, that you upgraded them through additional Rune Trials found within the maps.

 

- Spread out the boss battles a little more, and introduce one or two normal enemies in the latter half of the game.

 

- I also really like @dsm's idea to have the regular plasma rifle shots to slightly stun the opponent, to make it a more powerful weapon (outside of its mods).

 

- And finally, and crucial if the above ideas are implemented: I like the battle-type arena sections, but there are few enemies outside of these, particularly in the later maps, and I think it helps make the game feel like more of a chore near the end for me. I would like to see a lot more enemies in the normal corridors and rooms, especially in secret areas. This will make the extra exploration fun and rewarding.

 

Edited by OldManRage

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