Why do people remember Doom as fast paced?

[Lila Feuer]

10 hours ago, Woolie Wool said:

Not sure I agree with you. Low health for both the player and enemies combined with hitscan weapons means Wolf3D is much more about patience and planning than deft footwork. Rushing into a room full of SS like you'd rush into an encounter in Doom gets you slaughtered.

Depends on the size and shape of the room and the way the enemies are positioned or distributed. The chaingun allows you to take a more risky approach assuming you have environmental and situational awareness, and it's pretty much required for more than one SS and/or Mutant if you want to avoid taking damage. As well as the machine gun against a mass of Guards and a (small) group of Officers. If you can't utilize a doorway or narrow hall as a choke point and you're in an open area, medium or large sized, deviating between back and forth momentum when laying into a crowd will minimize chances of being hit or receiving serious damage. But sometimes there will be areas that are just packed full of enemies and too many opportunities to be flanked so you'll have to retreat somewhere safe.

[Woolie Wool]

1 hour ago, cyan0s1s said:

Depends on the size and shape of the room and the way the enemies are positioned or distributed. The chaingun allows you to take a more risky approach assuming you have environmental and situational awareness, and it's pretty much required for more than one SS and/or Mutant if you want to avoid taking damage. As well as the machine gun against a mass of Guards and a (small) group of Officers. If you can't utilize a doorway or narrow hall as a choke point and you're in an open area, medium or large sized, deviating between back and forth momentum when laying into a crowd will minimize chances of being hit or receiving serious damage. But sometimes there will be areas that are just packed full of enemies and too many opportunities to be flanked so you'll have to retreat somewhere safe.

I think I know how to play Wolf3D, thank you very much.

(also enjoy a very rare example of a Wolf3D map that actually is really fast)

[Lila Feuer]

@Woolie Wool Most others probably wouldn't know or just assume it is only ever a careful and slower game than Doom when it can actually be very fast and brutal, for both the player and enemy, much like FEAR or Hotline Miami. Speaking of which I actually did a small edit for ECWolf that makes the enemies and player have 25 health (because it's the Guard health) and capping player ammo at 24 so they wouldn't get overzealous with chaingun spam. From what I played it went surprisingly well, where reaction time is everything.

[Pirx]

On 2.11.2017 at 1:21 AM, Fonze said:

 

 

Couple that with doomguy's insane speed (running faster than rockets travel) and yes, doom is a very fast-paced game. Also, it's really excruciatingly difficult to not call doom a fast-paced game after playing some dm's and seeing your targets move, well, faster than rockets travel.

 

Tbh I was pretty amused how someone could  even doubt that doom is a fast game. It's not only quite obvious compared to modern shooters, where one feels like being stuck knee deep in the mud if used to doom's movement. I vividly remember some guy commenting on a forum when quake came out in 1996: quake guy is so slow, is he 70 or something? Bitmap-based shooters were indeed damn fast, and modeled after doom: duke3d, hexen, whatever. That's one reason why remakes of doom maps in modern engines play much differently. One doesn't move like in Doom. 

[Arctangent]

56 minutes ago, Pirx said:

That's one reason why remakes of doom maps in modern engines play much differently. One doesn't move like in Doom. 

I'd hazard a guess that more than you think do, it's just that the modified FoV, player size, etc. make the speed feel different, and thus you end up playing it differently entirely on your own.

 

I mean, just look at the complaints about Doom '16's movement speed being slow to see how even an official Doom game can't escape that.

[hardcore_gamer]

8 hours ago, Pirx said:

 That's one reason why remakes of doom maps in modern engines play much differently. One doesn't move like in Doom. 

 

Remakes of Doom maps in other games suck mostly because the ammo and enemy balance is completely different. This is true even in Doom 2016's own classic levels where the pinky demons render some of the maps borderline unplayable because it's not possible to kill them from the front like in the original.

[Woolie Wool]

7 hours ago, Arctangent said:

I'd hazard a guess that more than you think do, it's just that the modified FoV, player size, etc. make the speed feel different, and thus you end up playing it differently entirely on your own.

 

I mean, just look at the complaints about Doom '16's movement speed being slow to see how even an official Doom game can't escape that.

No, Doom 2016's movement speed is very definitely slower than Classic Doom's, and the greatly increased mobility of monsters compared to the player makes Doom 2016 a very different game to play. Doom 2016's movement speed serves its game and level design, but does not lend itself as well to classic Doom maps, especially maps like E3M3 with a lot of exploration and backtracking.

[Arctangent]

3 minutes ago, Woolie Wool said:

No, Doom 2016's movement speed is very definitely slower than Classic Doom's

Yes, but is it slow compared to Classic Doom's, or just slower?

 

You can't really use the classic maps that are in the game as reference, mind, given that the scale is entirely different.

[Woolie Wool]

Considering that the original maps were designed with the classic Doom player speed in mind, any change in the player speed may produce undesired effects. Doom's maps were meant to be in Doom, for them to play properly you have to recreate Doom's game design.

[Arctangent]

I feel like you misinterpreted what I said entirely.

[Optimus]

On 02/11/2017 at 0:13 AM, hardcore_gamer said:

I mean I get it that Doom tends to be fast paced TODAY because of keyboard+mouse control and all the custom maps but ORIGINALLY I just don't see how Doom could have been fast paced when most people weren't even playing with a mouse.

Mouse has not much to do with the overall game speed. I get it, it has to do with rotation speed, but you can still have pretty fast player movement without mouse, which is what Doom was famous for. Now, I do not remember it to be as fast when I first played it because of being 35fps max and also I was playing in a 386dx then which makes it very slow. Anyway, I guess later FPS having a much slower player speed and being more tactical gave the impression that doom is all about being fast paced compared to the rest.

[Plusw]

Doom is remembered as a fast paced game because of the density of important decisions the player is required to make in a single moment. Target prioritization, ammo management, weapon selection, avoiding projectiles, and crowd control just to name a few.

 

Doom is not a game where you GO fast, it's a game where you THINK fast. 

[Looper]

On 11/5/2017 at 1:15 AM, Plusw said:

Doom is not a game where you GO fast

Bullshit :D

[riderr3]

Because modern shooters is too slow and made for kids.

[Optimus]

Now I am thinking it, there are some things in Doom that are laughably slow compared to some modern games.

The enemies throw projectiles and they travel in a regular pace. You can strafe left right in a relaxed manner. The hitscanning enemies also, they wake up, walk a bit randomly, then decide sometimes to shoot, especially the former humans are very stupid. But that's how it's possible to have a horde of monsters, but the player dancing around like a king.

 

Compare it to modern FPS, where in order for the enemies to look realistic, they are vigilant and shoot you on site. Also, in many modern FPS if there are projectile monsters, the projectiles are much faster and in clever curves.

 

Just think of new Doom 4. The enemies are not as slow as classic Doom, the projectiles go in arcs and sometimes they predict and throw a bit to the left/rigth if you strafe before. Imps will run at you, climb above/below, much more clever (even if maybe scripted?). BUT, the player speed is also a bit slower than classic Doom. So, I have the situation where I anticipate a projectile, am delayed a bit to react, I strafe but still take the hit. Many times in new Doom because of slower player speed but much faster enemy and projectile speed, it feels unfair.

 

But there, enemy gameplay is not as fast in classic Doom (unless of course in nightmare).

[ATP2555]

On 11/2/2017 at 3:35 AM, Graf Zahl said:

For me "fast paced" makes 2 requirements:

 

1: The game does not hinder the player by putting up some artificial restrictions to movement.

2: The game does not constantly disrupt the gameplay with lengthy cutscenes thast have to be sat through.

 

Doom - and many other first generation shooters - fulfill both criteria. On the other hand, a game like Quake 4, for example, does not.

 

Quake 4 had skippable cutscenes.