What are your thoughts on the new Brutal Doom release? (no haters)

2 hours ago, dew said:

Here's an interesting dilemma. Mark made BD his full-time job and he's getting paid for all of this by his patrons... and you're proposing that experienced coders should take time off their own projects to help this guy for free. Why?

Well, he's definitely on his own. I decided long ago to consider BD 'unsupported' due to its messy DECORATE code, i.e. unless some problem is caused by a clear engine bug I'll point my finger at Sgt. Mark for support.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

Well, he's definitely on his own. I decided long ago to consider BD 'unsupported' due to its messy DECORATE code, i.e. unless some problem is caused by a clear engine bug I'll point my finger at Sgt. Mark for support.

I was under the impression that's how you considered all mods, actually.

 

Unless by "support" you're referring to stuff like keeping unintended or undesirable behavior in the engine due to some mods requiring it. Like the classic Afrit.

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I think it is better than previous versions.. I liked the weapons more this time around I guess. It hasn't made me want to play Brutal Doom or anything.. I'll just replay Doom 2016 if I want to play a more violent version of Doom.

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22 hours ago, Praetor said:

Is GZDoom just unoptimized then, or is it Brutal Doom, or both? I don't have any trouble playing current generation games at all. Surely to god if I can handle Doom 2016 I can handle a mod for Doom, hm? 

Brutal Doom takes ZDoom's special lumps way, way beyond what they were ever intended to handle. Brutal Doom is so byzantine and complicated that it really would be a better experience if Sergeant Mark IV stopped development of the current version, forked GZDoom, and re-implemented everything in C++...assuming he even knows how. Hardcoding the Brutal Doom features would make them orders of magnitude faster, much more stable, easier to maintain, and vastly more elegant.

 

Forking a simpler source port like PrBoom+ would result in even greater improvements but a ZDoom base would be necessary to preserve the little ecosystem of Brutal Doom forks, add-ons, and other derivative works that keep Brutal Doom's community going.

Edited by Woolie Wool
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3 minutes ago, Woolie Wool said:

Brutal Doom takes ZDoom's special lumps way, way beyond what they were ever intended to handle. Brutal Doom is so byzantine and complicated that it really would be a better experience if Sergeant Mark IV stopped development of the current version, forked GZDoom, and re-implemented everything in C++...assuming he even knows how. Hardcoding the Brutal Doom features would make them orders of magnitude faster.

Not really. Even if he just used ZScript a lot could be gained to make the code more manageable.

But even so, it is not the script code that makes this slow - there's far more complex stuff written as scripts for the original games - but the shitload of debris that gets spawned and must be processed while flying around.

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I thought that sort of thing could be vastly sped up by writing entirely new code for debris objects, so they have their own, much faster and simpler physics and collision and might not even be Doom THINGs at all. There are lots of games where there are vast quantities of objects moving around, but in these cases certain objects are usually treated differently from others so the math being done on each object is no more extensive than it needs to be.

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You still got to do collision detection - and this is what costs most of the processing time. There are no alternative ways to do it but to iterate over everything nearby.

 

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Just now, Graf Zahl said:

You still got to do collision detection - and this is what costs most of the processing time. There are no alternative ways to do it but to iterate over everything nearby.

 

I have to 1up this. When I was working with game maker studio, I had to use GML to make more advanced collision checks that would check for collision before it occurred. Without it, sometimes my player would get stick in object and such. It was just a small platformer but the loss of performance was noticeable. And we are only talking about 2 enemy types, 1 player and zero attacks at that point.

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Welp I am getting a big green square when i try to use iron sights on several weapons... not off to a good start -_-

 

edit: here is what happens when I try to use the fist (gzdoom):

Screenshot_Doom_20171103_153301.png

 

edit2: apparently I fixed it by setting "force default crosshair" to on in HUD settings

Edited by therektafire

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Slightly off-topic, but I don't understand how games like Touhou, which were designed for WinXP and below, can handle close to hundreds of objects all flying in different directions and flying in predefined ways to create patterns, can run at all on those old systems. Presumably the fact that it's 2D helps, but some devices crash when trying to play Undertale due to its bullet hell battles (which all have far, far fewer bullets than a Touhou one).

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Moving hundreds of objects itself is not a problem. The performance issues arise when you have to check each one of these hundreds of objects against a large section of them all. Then you quickly get to 10000+ collision checks. The game you mentioned certainly did not get there - even Doom has means to skip some of those -but they need to be employed by the modder to keep things under control.

 

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I just checked the hyped new Icon of Sin and to be honest. I prefer the original boss. The new IoS can take damage from ALL guns (instead of just splash damage) and I defeated it in 1 minute. Very bland, dull boss.

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14 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

Or, to put it simply: 10000 bullets in a shmup only need to get the location of one other object, the player. 10000 enemies in Doom have to get the location of the player, every other enemy, the floor, the walls, the ceiling, etc..

Edited by Arctangent
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One feature that always bugged me about BD and PB was having to press both mouse buttons when dual-wielding weapons. Feels much better now when primary fire shoots both.

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17 minutes ago, Spectre01 said:

One feature that always bugged me about BD and PB was having to press both mouse buttons when dual-wielding weapons. Feels much better now when primary fire shoots both.

In addition to that I hate the way you have to zoom down sights. Right clicking to go in and out is irritating as hell and causes me not to use it. I wish it were like most games where you can hold it and just let go to get out. Hell, you can't even hold the damn button and shoot at the same time. Bullshit if you ask me.

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I actually prefer the click rather than hold mechanic. Maybe because that's how it worked in Counter-Strike with zoomed weapons. It doesn't seem like aiming down the sights makes a huge accuracy difference either. I find headshotting enemies with the basic rifle just as easy without the zoom.

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I agree about the accuracy thing. I just like using for fun really. Maybe a toggle option like sprint/crouch.

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Also I am going to open up the pk3 and get rid of the footstep sounds. They are annoying as hell and last longer than movement. I suspect this is because of the way doom handles movement. Unless I am incorrect, I think it uses a velocity like movement with a slow/gradual rate of decline. If Mark's code plays footsteps while movement is true, then it isn't accounting for the tiny amount of "speed" left over after letting go of the move keys.

 

Can anyone confirm or correct this? 

 

EDIT. Found it in the SNDINFO.Terrain Lump. Just in case anyone else is bothered by this, you can delete/comment out lines 40-187.

 

Got rid of the marine chatter as well.

 

Edited by DemonusDefunctus
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Most likely, steps are tied to the player's walking animation. And yes, said animation won't stop until you lose all your remaining momentum.

 

I don't know if it's possible or convenient to realize footsteps any other way, but I know very little of ZDoom modding.

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You could compare the players current and previous horizontal coordinates and make the walking sound if they are on the ground and the difference of the coordinates is above a certain threshold. That's probably how I would do it

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On 04/11/2017 at 4:52 AM, DoctorGenesis said:

I just checked the hyped new Icon of Sin and to be honest. I prefer the original boss. The new IoS can take damage from ALL guns (instead of just splash damage) and I defeated it in 1 minute. Very bland, dull boss.

As if the original wasn't Very bland and Boring.

At least the new IoS can actually defend itself more.

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I have to say that I'm liking the weapon selection quite a bit, and it's interesting that some of them are randomized in the sense that you may get one of two BFGs, one of two shotguns, etc., but sometimes this can cause a sudden spike in difficulty. For instance, you know the BFG in Industrial Zone? Well, if it randomizes the pickup as the traditional BFG, you can clear the area of enemies easily. But the alternative BFG, which takes quite a while to fire and is not nearly as powerful, simply cannot get you out of that situation if you pistol start the map and rush to the area. I also noticed that since invisibility spheres have been replaced by allies, they are often killed before you can even get to them, as enemies will attack them as if they are players. Basically, gameplay is still kind of unbalanced at times, though this is easily the most entertaining version of BD so far.

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On samedi 4 novembre 2017 at 1:03 AM, DemonusDefunctus said:

In addition to that I hate the way you have to zoom down sights. Right clicking to go in and out is irritating as hell and causes me not to use it. I wish it were like most games where you can hold it and just let go to get out.

You'd have to fuss around with the bindings, tying actions to e.g. +mouse2 and -mounse2 instead of mouse2, but I think you can get what you want. See wiki.

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8 hours ago, Gez said:

You'd have to fuss around with the bindings, tying actions to e.g. +mouse2 and -mounse2 instead of mouse2, but I think you can get what you want. See wiki.

Yeah I do not know how to do that quite yet. I have messed around with the weapons in this BD quite a lot already though. Got rid of the zoom on the standard shotgun and replaced it with a super shot that uses 5 shells and needs a cool down before re-firing. Removed the scope from the Rocket Launcher and replaced it with a triple missile launch where each extra missile going 15 degrees outward in each direction. Removed the useless and redundant pistol punch attack and replaced it with a four shot burst fire(for both single and dual wield). I also Halved the time the BFG takes to fire. All things I have never liked in BD. Tomorrow I am going to put a sword in like in PB.

 

Can you give more specific details on how to do what you requested? Possibly in a PM in order not to hijack this thread.

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It wouldn't be changes to BD itself, it would be changes to your key bindings. Note that if the iron sight mechanism uses the alt-fire, for example, then doing that will also mess up the alt-fire of other weapons. I don't really want to give step-by-step instructions because I don't have much interest in getting Brutal Doom so I can't test that whatever I'd tell you to do would actually work.

 

 

Feel free to start a thread in Editing Questions if you don't want to hijack this thread.

 

Edited by Gez

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1 minute ago, Gez said:

It wouldn't be changes to BD itself, it would be changes to your key bindings. Note that if the iron sight mechanism uses the alt-fire, for example, then doing that will also mess up the alt-fire of other weapons. I don't really want to give step-by-step instructions because I don't have much interest in getting Brutal Doom so I can't test that whatever I'd tell you to do would actually work.

 

Not a problem. I will figure it out. Thanks for your suggestions.

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I love it. My main issue is some of the sprites and sounds don't match very well (like the shotgun and pistol are two different art styles and the PB zombie sounds don't match with the realistic gun sounds) and the blur effect on weapons when you look down the sight is jarring, I'd prefer a clear sprite. There's some occasional performance drops, but they're fine.

 

Edit- Actually after playing for a bit longer I think the sound effects are fine.

Edited by DepravedDiptera
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Ok I played a good amount of Brutal Doom V21.

 

Coming from a BD fan, I like it. The level enhancer script is welcomed in the boring Doom 2 city levels and the odd vehicle are... not needed but fun nonetheless. The little added Boss tweaks are a nice touch.

 

I appreciate the tactical mode and the increased fire rate of the assault rifle. It is more satisfying and effective as a result. The new weapons are great except I don't really see a place for the SMG other than to use pistol ammo and the machinegun with the grenade launcher is not useful enough to be my regular choice. I dislike scrolling through several weapons within the same category, so that's bit of a negative.

 

The gore, effects, changes etc are great. I have come across a few bugs I would like ironed out though. I pretty much don't need to play Project Brutality anymore unless I want the extra monsters and even more weapons / features.

Edited by Chezza
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On 11/3/2017 at 4:15 AM, Graf Zahl said:

Someone already mentioned "cobbled together", and that perfectly nails what BD is.

Oh, I don't doubt it. But, what's easy for a seasoned programmer is quite confusing to a novice programmer. Making it work (or borrowing code) can be done fairly easily. Understanding comes later. And *really* understanding what to use, and why using it makes sense requires a dedicated effort which takes time and effort to achieve.

 

As usual, every now and again, I feel the need to protect content creators from vicious, unnecessary attacks. Beating down content creators is like shooting yourself in the foot, and it happens over and over. An example area of problem code with a suggested fix is always more appropriate, especially in a thread that pleads "no-haters".

On 11/3/2017 at 4:15 AM, Graf Zahl said:

Not really. Many of the flags only get checked in a single place to define a single trait. The main issue here is that any piece of debris is a full-blown *MOVING* object, meaning that each single piece has to run all collision checks each frame. That just costs time. ... Just in case, has anyone checked if all those debris actors have +NOBLOCKMAP set? If not, that would explain to a great deal why it performs like shit.

Flags: Yes, I know - it was a simplified way to describe that a lot of things get checked per spawnned object. And, yes, moving objects add a significant performance drain.

 

From what I've seen of BD, there must be some per-tic debris scripts: Debris that rotates in air changes to a different state when it hits the ground. This debris also spawns blood and gore as it hits things (at least it used to). And I imagine that NOBLOCKMAP is not set: BD's debris can be attacked, meaning that it's shootable/stompable, which spawns more gore/changes state.

 

So, yes, a lot of script code must be running to accomplish these effects. I haven't looked at the scripts - maybe they could be written more efficiently. Also, maybe some ZScript could be written to provide some faster alternatives.

 

So, maybe Sgt. Mark's requirements and expectations are too high. But, regardless, the game itself does a lot of neat shit, and I believe in giving credit where credit is due. His skills are improving, and I imagine that they will continue to improve with time. That is, unless he becomes discouraged. Again, I ask that people tone down the viciousness. It's unpleasant to read, and, worst of all, it's unnecessary, in that it only serves some sick thrill in the writer of the comment, no one else. Provide some suggestions - real suggestions, not just "fix that shit".

 

 

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I think the map enhancement script is a fantastic idea, and it actually is very similar to stuff I've been working on recently, but I think a lot of the enhancements themselves are kind of garish and don't look super great next to the stock Doom resources. Cool idea, though.

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