What are your thoughts on the new Brutal Doom release? (no haters)

13 minutes ago, Glaice said:

Also the OP with the "(no haters)" part in the topic simply makes him sound like a blatant defensive fanboy for the project.

Hardly. I wanted the thread to focus on discussing the new features of v21 instead of being a "Brutal Doom General" where half the posts are "lol, BD sucks and Mark is an asshole" that contribute nothing. Constructive criticism is more than welcome.

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I'm not speaking about straight out being an asshole like that, but just the word "hater" is just cringey to use.

Edited by Glaice
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I really dont mind the no haters tag only because BD threads always end up going to shit.

Im glad this thread remained somewhat controled.

 

Im planning to try the new Version this weekend only because of the Environment enhancer thing. Really interested on how thats gonna change up the regular BD gameplay.

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On 11/7/2017 at 9:29 PM, Da Werecat said:

But first you need to know what to fix. The engine? The texture? The mod with the texture?

 

The player? Well, duh. Just don't look where you're not supposed to.

Heh heh.

On 11/7/2017 at 10:04 PM, Arctangent said:

Then you run into the reverse chicken-egg problem, though. If the only ones saying anything are the ones with only positive things to say, how will the code get improved if there's no reason to improve it from the perspective the creator?

 

Hell, that seems like a great way to leave the worst parts to fester and get even worse, due to the creator adding more stuff based on the positive feedback without any concern to make it so that they don't split the seams of the hackjob even more.

On 11/8/2017 at 9:53 AM, DILDOMASTER666 said:

Just chiming in to remind you that criticizing work is always beneficial if the criticism is properly substantiated and it's very bad practice to go around telling people you shouldn't criticize anything. Without criticism, the mod won't improve for people who want it to improve since all Captain Zimbabwe Infinity will hear on the subject is "this mod is perfect"

 

Anyway, I don't like the new version in much the same way I have basically never liked Brutal Doom. I feel that, as with all previous versions I have played, the gameplay essentially boils down to an elaborate session of peekaboo and unfortunately this cannot be really addressed without addressing every single part of the mod, so in the interest of avoiding wasting any more of your time, I will leave my criticism at that barring anyone actually asking me to elaborate

Yes, criticize, but do it gently. You know, the Golden Rule: Do onto others as you'd have them do onto you. It's not difficult to be civil, and it's free. Otherwise, it's just beating someone down, because you can get away with it. That's how I see it, anyway. Worst of all, it's demoralizing, and can adversely affect motivation. Which, again, serves no one.

 

 

On 11/7/2017 at 11:09 PM, Nevander said:

I say the engine is 100% at fault. They designed the patch and texture system in such a way that would imply you could create multi-patch textures and use them where you please. If the game takes a shit when using one on a one-sided wall, that sounds like a bug. Period.

I know where you're coming from, but "bug" is too harsh a term. Vanilla Doom was built to render 27 levels: the IWAD levels. Period. Yes, they built the WAD system, as a result of seeing what people accomplished with Wolfenstein, and realizing how difficult those mods must have been. Yes, they did want people to be able to create mods.

 

But, id was on a tight schedule, so they built exactly what was needed to play their 3 episodes. We may see it as a bug, but, to id, using the multi-patch texture on a 2s wall is simply unsupported. They didn't need it, so they didn't build it. They did, however, give us the code, to add whatever functionality we wanted.

 

I mentioned Medusa to suggest that, no matter how optimized the engine is, using invalid resources (or poorly-written scripts) can bring it to its knees. Specifically for Brutal Doom, it may be that what Sgt. Mark is trying to do with his scripts will slow down the engine, no matter how well they are written. Then again, the slowdowns may be due to poorly-written script. Again, I have not studied the scripts.

 

However, on a scale of 1 to 10, I don't think anyone can claim a Crap factor of 10. (or 1). Some cool things are being done in Brutal Doom, and I don't think anyone can really argue that point, no matter how much they despise the mod. And, I believe this should be taken into account when criticizing (or praising) the mod. I am not excusing any of Sgt. Mark's behavior, or his actions.  But I believe that anytime you're getting ready to say something that has the potential to hurt someone's feelings, extra care should be taken, and extra thought should be considered. Empathy should be employed, if you're capable of feeling it.

 

Feel free to praise. Feel free to criticize. Just be fair and kind about it. I am proud of Doomworld, for having a community that does criticize and praise kindly and fairly, most of the time. Many forums do not. I support this notion. That's all.

 

 

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So I really like Brutal Doom v20 (and previous versions as well although I never really kept track of which release was which until v20).

 

I think v21 is also fun but it's maybe sort of lost the plot. It kind of reminds me of Project Brutality which while it was fun for a little bit has just too much going on. It seems like Brutal Doom is encroaching on that territory now, needlessly.

 

The way I see it, Brutal Doom is fun because it re-injects life into Doom. All of us who've played Doom since the early 90s are used to the game. The mechanics, the weapons, the monsters, they've all become reducible to a series of experience driven and engine-knowledge driven constructs. I no longer am "scared" of a Doom monster I've seen a million times, I'm no longer excited by a Doom weapon I've shot a million times, etc. That doesn't mean those weapons or monsters are bad, the reason people keep playing is because the game holds up. However Brutal Doom in it's ideal form is taking the base game and making it as exciting as it was when it was first being played in the 90s. All the exciting weapons pickups and monster deaths (the first time you gib a monster) and the fear you had when you only play by keyboard and the enemies are still frighteningly "when will it die!!" challenging, all that is given new life by Brutal Doom, IMO.

 

However v21 seems to take it a step too far. It's not that it's bad, but I can't see using it as a go-to mod for playing through with. It's more like it's now it's own game whereas v20 had pretty much perfected this re-balanced classic Doom feel. Playing through a bit of v21 I didn't feel like I was playing Doom, but updated. I felt like I was playing a Doom mod. Brutal Doom never made me feel like that, I always felt like I was playing the classic game except with a lot of overhauls to reinvigorate it.

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I was able to get BD21 to run on GZDOOM (my go-to for Doom stuff these days), and am quite liking the level enhancements so far. However, I have not been able to get it to run on Zandronum (since it keeps giving me an error telling me that cvar bd_bloodamount already exists), which sucks because there are certain features of the mod that can only run on Zandronum.

 

EDIT: Got it working. I don't know why the hell a copy of the mod was included in Skins instead of the main directory like it was supposed to be, but if you have two copies of the mod in the main directory and in skins, it results in the error. Got to play around with the Lady Marine, and she's been working all right for me.

Edited by Dravencour

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I encountered a peculiar bug in which during an execution, the camera just stays zoomed out while the player awkwardly stands around and twitches, completely invincible, enemies attacking; without warning the execution will finish, or perhaps a new one starts. I'm still not sure. Very strange bug that has occurred multiple times. It's a fairly glitchy release. I'm not sure how much more Mark can cram into this mod without game-breaking bugs piling up. 

Edited by GoatLord

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One of Sgt Mark IV's videos mentions that bloom and SSAO slow Brutal DOOM down by a lot. I'm curious as to whether the people who reported performance issues get better performance after turning them off.

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That sounds more of a Brutal Doom problem than GZDoom's.

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On 11/10/2017 at 9:27 PM, insertwackynamehere said:

I think v21 is also fun but it's maybe sort of lost the plot. It kind of reminds me of Project Brutality which while it was fun for a little bit has just too much going on.

I came here to say exactly this.  I loved v20, and I still enjoy returning to it once in a while.  The gun balance was perfect (OK, maybe the grenades were overpowered, and the BFG sort of sucked, but that was part of the fun, imo), and the enemies were fun to deal with.  v21...not so much.  It has too many guns, and it reintroduces the useless pistol (and let's be honest - the assault rifle replacing the pistol is one of the best reasons for playing Brutal Doom in the first place).

 

I like to occasionally pick up Project Brutality or Russian Overkill, if I just want a completely mindless, ridiculous experience.  They're great comedy mods.  But Brutal Doom?  Eh, I really liked the relative simplicity of v20.  It was funny and over the top, but it still felt like Doom.

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On 11/10/2017 at 8:27 PM, insertwackynamehere said:

However v21 seems to take it a step too far. It's not that it's bad, but I can't see using it as a go-to mod for playing through with. It's more like it's now it's own game whereas v20 had pretty much perfected this re-balanced classic Doom feel. Playing through a bit of v21 I didn't feel like I was playing Doom, but updated. I felt like I was playing a Doom mod. Brutal Doom never made me feel like that, I always felt like I was playing the classic game except with a lot of overhauls to reinvigorate it.

This sums up my thoughts on Brutal Doom V21 well, it's not bad at all and it is fun to play, just not the same kind of fun that past versions of Brutal Doom have given. Maybe it's because I have played the heck out of Brutal Doom around late 2011 and continue to play more of it throughout 2012, but I still to enjoy Brutal Doom V20b for what it is, I would say that is the best version of Brutal Doom personally. I am not much of a fan of the map enhancements as they don't really come off as the original Doom being upgraded, more like a remap mod with texture changes and some added barrels here and there. And while the added weapons are nice and all, I find them unneeded at the same time as one of the things I liked about Brutal Doom in the past is that the new weapons were more or less upgrades or new versions of the original weapons, even with their reloading mechanics.

 

I would still say V21 is worth playing for anyone who is still a fan of Brutal Doom, but for me, I feel dried out.

Edited by GuyNamedErick
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I do agree with the last few posts. Brutal Doom v20 felt like an enhanced brutal version of Doom while V21 feels like it's throwing unnecessary weapons / monsters / clutter. It's touching Project Brutality space.

 

I'm still having fun with it though, but v20 is best.

 

Also so many of my BD map scripts are now broken :(

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After some more time with it, I have basically turned it into v20 with the increased gore and enhancement script. Gone with smg, auto shotgun, grenade launcher, pistol melee, launcher scope, ridiculous chaingun fire rate, foot step sounds, marine chatter, much more like this. 

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I liked BD before the versions that added the atrocious ear-raping former human sound replacements, and the infamous SG sling.  I can't remember what version it was, but I had good fun with it in 2010~2011 or so.  I remember it had some obnoxious issue with torches constantly emanating a clicking sound, because the flame sound seemed to be synced to the rapid rate of fire particle generation.

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@DemonusDefunctus I'd love to have that.

 

I'm currently playing a mod for v20bcalled Tomtefar's Extension. It was recently updated and is much more fun than v21 imo, because it retains the weapon balance of v20b while managing to have fresh additions.

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34 minutes ago, TootsyBowl said:

@DemonusDefunctus I'd love to have that.

 

I mentioned how to take the sounds out in an earlier post. For the weapons, just erase the ones you don't want from the brutal weaponsection in the KEYCONF lump and move the rifle to slot 2. If you have need for it, you can PM me and I will tell you what to do with the weapon DECORATES. I also added an awesome secondary fire the the pistol, launcher, and pump shotgun.

 

Messing with some of these things caused a few minor bugs but the above changes caused none. When I finish with this tedious knife sprite sheet I am working on I will iron out the bugs and share. Thanks for letting me know about that extension. I will check it out.

Edited by DemonusDefunctus

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Question: Are there any mods that just do the fancy visual stuff—i.e. coloring certain sectors based on the flat or thing being used (such as a light flat or a torch), smooth liquid animation, various particle effects, etc.—or am I stuck with BD? Because neither Enhanced Doom or Beautiful Doom are as attractive in terms of lighting.

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I've tried it and i think it's cool, there are some serious balance issues but this is a beta and Sarge could fix them eventually (has happened in the past). Okay the chaingun fires too fast (to try to make the machinegun useful) and both the assault shotgun and the grenade launcher suck big time. Rockets have no splash damage may be becouse the sprites for monsters sitting down are ugly (?). Some bugs are still there such as invulnerable revenants and game hanging on deep water sectors (infinite loop). I could release a full standalone version of my BD v20c patch which fixed a lot of bugs but i don't feel much like doing it and i think BD20 is dead (but i could do it anyway).

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Noticed a bug while playing Sunder, (and also TNT Revilution) in that the *FALL animated textures seem to get incorrectly assigned. 

He5UTjn.jpg

 

I managed to get a lot further when I thought I would playing honestly, and I didn't have to reach for god mode until this imp encounter on MAP04, where I got repeatedly swamped by imps due to the plasma guns' reload time:

SUP19hK.jpg

 

Additionally this the first point I noticed dramatic frame rate drops in GZDoom. There had been some minor slow downs previously, but nothing game breaking. But here, as soon as imps started dying beneath the crushers the frame dropped to what felt like 15fps. Saving, restarting GZDoom, and reloading the position seemed to help, but it was still significantly under 60fps.

 

However the next main encounter pretty much turned GZDoom into a slide show:

aUtwHqx.jpg

 

Out of curiosity I tried the map in Zandronium, and while it performed signifcantly faster, once I triggered the Spider Mastermind arena, it was slide show time again. Interestingly, the earlier crusher fight with Hell Knights and Chaingunners performed fine in both ports, so it appears to be a problem with the sheer accumulation of corpses beneath crushers.

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Did a bit more stess testing in Hollow Icon:

 

I1SvQSE.jpg

This encounter brought GZDoom to a standstill, but remained playable in Zandronium with some slow down. I think it weights in at around 750 monsters?

 

However the finale encounter defeated even Zandronium:

X7I5EeZ.jpg

 

It weights in at about 1500 monsters, but I think the Pain elementals can generate another 1000 lost souls on top of that. (Final monster count for the map stood at around 4200.) I noticed that as soon as I died the frame rate would largely recover. I ended up using god mode and standing in place, until infighting brought the monster count under 500, at which point the frame rate recovered to a playable level.

 

I was quite surprised at how much of Sunder was playable in BD, and definitely a lot more fun than my previous attempts of slogging through it in Vanilla. (I originally got as far as the Revenant finale in MAP02 before throwing in the towel.) And after watching a couple of UV-Max vanilla demos, I noticed that the tactics I used were often quite similar. Though there were definitely things that didn't translate to the mod at all well, such as the start of Grinder which was simply over whelming from a pistol/rifle start, and of course some of the show stopping massive encounters.

 

(I should probably note my system spec: i5 2500 CPU @ 3.3GHz / 8 GB RAM / GTX 650 Ti / Windows7 64bit)

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I've noticed that floors that lower to the lowest floor disappear entirely and cause visual glitches. Anyone else encounter this?

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I have to give credit where credit's due, I like the focus on aesthetic fidelity. I wasn't a big fan of Brutal Doom so it's good to see he's going for something more ambitious than just more brutality which, you can get in Doom 2016 or Mortal Kombat.

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I've just played The Factory with this mod, and I really like it. It really adds atmosphere and makes the map feel a lot less abstract. I especially liked the skybox and all the props and fires littered about. It was all smooth performance-wise.

I also played a bit of the next map, and I found the tank. I like the idea of making use of the larger and more open levels to insert vehicle combat, it's not something you see in Doom mods very often. But the controls are a bit iffy; you don't seem to be able to turn on the spot properly like a tank should. It also needs a tighter turning circle because the levels aren't that wide open.

I play Project Brutality a lot, so the fact that Brutal Doom has become more baroque since its last version isn't an issue for me.

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I'm waiting for the proper v21 release to play it, but one thing I didn't like in the older versions was setting aim/zoom to be toggled with the Secondary Fire button.

 

I would have preferred it if it were activated by holding down a key, and deactivated by releasing the key (like crouch). Then I could bind it to a soft pull of the Steam Controller's right trigger.

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On 11/2/2017 at 9:33 AM, R1ck said:

Brutal doom somehow in my opinion became an entry level mod for someone who new to Doom/2. Which is not a bad thing at all. Not a fan and (I can't believe I said this) whatever Sarge did in the past people who hates him has to put it behind. He seems more professional on his stuff now.

to be honest brutal doom, PFENh (anything z86 does really) and Eternal with hellground (shoutout to tormentor too) was really what made me realize how far you could mod doom and how far you could take the game, you cant deny the level of interactivity that brutal doom provides and i was impressed and decided after coupling that with hellbound and a few others that i was gonna get into dooming.

 

and here we are. one mod with 27000 downloads and a map pack with countless hours poured into it.  

 

so the question to me is "would you like to see more newcomers in the community?" and i say yes. 

more maps, more mods, more textures. i want fresh talent and whatever inspires more people is fine by me.

Edited by cortlong50

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(also i feel like i need to add this.)

(this is the only comment that is going to get attention...watch.

as far as performance...ever since gzdoom 1.8 (so 2.+ and 3.+) ive noticed my frames hit the 30's and 40's without mods just walking around in bigger maps. (no offense graf...i love you man and your sourceport is the only one i play with and i respect your work and your bird profile picture) but the performance in these newer versions is...not great. 1.8.+ worked beautifully, but ive noticed a huge performance hit when we hit the 2.+'s. my map pack (huge detailed disaster that it is) runs BD at 60+ (i lock at 35 but for testing purposes i unlock) on 1.8.+...but stay around 35-40 in 2.+ and 3.+.  so you pointing the finger at bad performance because of a mod isnt really in the best taste. the performance hit of the newer versions just by themselves is undeniable. not trying to call you out, but i cant let you torpedo shit without saying something.

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On 11/13/2017 at 6:43 AM, GoatLord said:

Question: Are there any mods that just do the fancy visual stuff—i.e. coloring certain sectors based on the flat or thing being used (such as a light flat or a torch), smooth liquid animation, various particle effects, etc.—or am I stuck with BD? Because neither Enhanced Doom or Beautiful Doom are as attractive in terms of lighting.

PFEnh has great brightmaps and particle effects and keep it feeling very vanilla. its one of the all time greats as far as im concerned. so if youre looking for a good pack without it being brutal, maybe check that one out.

 

(sorry for all the comments.)

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Why "no haters"? If you're asking for an opinion, shouldn't the "haters" be included? Seems like a loaded question to me....I dunno  ::shrugs::

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You can have a negative opinion on something without overreacting and making the conversation unpleasant. I'm assuming that's what the OP meant.

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