What are your thoughts on the new Brutal Doom release? (no haters)

[Spectre01]

The open beta of version 21 was recently uploaded, and I've managed to try it out a bit to see what's new. Generally positive impressions so far, such as the improved sound effects, brightmaps, and a few additional weapons. I did get stuck in the fatality animation in GZDoom though while bashing Pinkies.

[fraggle]

Seconding the "no haters" request. I'm not a fan of Brutal Doom myself but I'd love to see people discuss it in a civil manner. If you have nothing constructive to say please feel free not to comment on this thread.

[Linguica]

I am not a fan of the map enhancement scripts but I can't really articulate any reason why that's fundamentally different from any other aspect of gameplay modding. One thing I saw is that the new version apparently also changes textures / adds stuff to a handful of specific PWAD levels (I believe Doom 2 Reloaded and Epic 2 are specifically mentioned) which seems... rude somehow? Modding the IWAD levels is one thing because those are all sort of "community property" but when you get into specifically changing the design / gameplay of specific PWADs, you're stepping on the toes of another Doom modder, if that makes any sense.

[Ancalagon]

6 hours later, the no haters request made this thread have almost no posts.

[Merry Widow]

I use it once in a while.Not a favorite, but I don't hate it at all.

[Bauul]

Brutal Doom has kind of just become it's own thing now. Especially how it's pretty much developed in a vacuum from the rest of the Doom modding community.

 

Add to that its incompatibility with almost anything else makes its appeal to modders/mappers like most of us somewhat limited, so even besides any personal opinions you have of the mod or author, I reckon it just doesn't really have much of a pull here.  

[SP_FACE1]

Does it come with it's own mapset yet? I remember reading some time ago that the author was about to release maps with an upcoming release. I don't like the project but I promised myself to test it again once those maps come out. If it had it's own maps it would be more like a separate game which would be great because that's what it is to me anyway.

[40oz]

@Linguica: that's interesting, is there a list of map changes youre referring to?

[R1ck]

Brutal doom somehow in my opinion became an entry level mod for someone who new to Doom/2. Which is not a bad thing at all. Not a fan and (I can't believe I said this) whatever Sarge did in the past people who hates him has to put it behind. He seems more professional on his stuff now.

[ImpieEyez95]

I've played it. It most certainly feels like a Demo (since it's labelled as such) and I'm withholding any other thoughts until the final Extermination Day mapset is released. 

[Koko Ricky]

@Linguica, that's an interesting sentiment, but perhaps the question is: Is it the author's intent to provide the supposedly optimal experience to those community mods, or just to add something that would be of interest to BD fans? I think it's only rude if it's the former.

[Pencil of Doom]

I love the Axe, decapitating and cutting enemies in half is so satisfying to do, plus you can paint it in 3 flavours, normal blood, caco blood and green blood, also i love the improved gore system, as well the mutilation of dead bodies, the weapon sounds are pretty good too, as are the new sprites, overall i'd say it's one of the best updates BD has ever had.

[Clay]

I have no shame for liking BD. I think this update is so far a very welcome one. I like the new weapons and weapon sprites. I love having a flashlight. The auto shotgun feels a little over the top as BD provides a myriad of weapons which to make sauce of your enemies. Overall I love it so far.

 

About the modding of others wads. I don't see how it should be a problem as you do not have to use BD...then again nobody has gone around replacing things in my maps and calling it an improvement so I cannot really speak to that. Also, a s result of the bitchiness of the greater doom community, he has made most options able to be turned off in menu.

 

[geo]

I saw the trailer and I watch the video updates. Throwing enemies should offer more diversity and fun. The game (mod, engine) is already bad ass and enjoyable. There's not much I can fathom to enhance or improve while sticking to the Doom formula.

 

I wish there was something to hate. Maybe the sniper bullets from zombies.

[geo]

Alright, I found something to dislike. Looks like the only way I can play it is with Zandronum.exe. Which means I have to set my configs. That alone is a bit annoying, but the Zandronum seems to be wider than my screen, so its tough to navigate menus. Plus my mouse needs to go well below a menu item to move it to the correct menu item or I just need to use keys. Using keys for a menu is fine, but I need to see it.

 

Once full screen is on, it alleviates the window being too wide for my monitor. So that was minor.

 

Now there's no sound or music for whatever reason.

 

I'm uncertain there's even a brutal_doom.pk3 in the open beta. I see zandronum.pk3 and skulltag_actors.pk3. I see a bd21 in skins, so I will assume that's it.

 

* edit * bd21 works in GZDoom

 

The ModDB listing says Nov 21 rather than Nov 1.

Edited November 2, 2017 by geo

[Clay]

1 minute ago, geo said:

Alright, I found something to dislike. Looks like the only way I can play it is with Zandronum.exe. Which means I have to set my configs. That alone is a bit annoying, but the Zandronum seems to be wider than my screen, so its tough to navigate menus. Plus my mouse needs to go well below a menu item to move it to the correct menu item or I just need to use keys. Using keys for a menu is fine, but I need to see it.

 

I used gzdoom no problem

[Clay]

6 minutes ago, geo said:

Alright, I found something to dislike. Looks like the only way I can play it is with Zandronum.exe. Which means I have to set my configs. That alone is a bit annoying, but the Zandronum seems to be wider than my screen, so its tough to navigate menus. Plus my mouse needs to go well below a menu item to move it to the correct menu item or I just need to use keys. Using keys for a menu is fine, but I need to see it.

 

Once full screen is on, it alleviates the window being too wide for my monitor. So that was minor.

 

Now there's no sound or music for whatever reason.

 

I'm uncertain there's even a brutal_doom.pk3 in the open beta. I see zandronum.pk3 and skulltag_actors.pk3.

 

 

Look at the read me. There are instructions telling you to open the skins folder for the pk3

[geo]

1 minute ago, DemonusDefunctus said:

 

 

Look at the read me. There are instructions telling you to open the skins folder for the pk3

Yep I figured that out after posting. Thanks.

[Misty]

Oh well, I've tested it before I fell asleep. I noticed problem with sounds. I don't hate that mod, because I can play Doom modded and unmodded. 

[snapshot]

3 hours ago, Ancalagon said:

6 hours later, the no haters request made this thread have almost no posts.

>implying Doomworld consists mostly of "Brutal Doom haters"

[Reisal]

I saw a blood splash glitch posted by doom_txt earlier, it was rather amusing to see..

 

 

I hope this doesn't count as "hate", considering I'm an ex-BD user.

[Praetor]

I wish I could play Brutal Doom/Project Brutality. I miss those mods.

 

For some reason GZDoom really lags now with those mods. I remember it used to work fine long ago. I've tried new installs of Windows too and it didn't make a difference. Wonder if it has something to do with my new GPU, an NVIDIA GTX 750 TI? I was using an AMD FX 7770 before. (AMD sucks. Never again.)

 

The new update looks really cool, but I confess I look forward more to what Project Brutality will do with all this than the actual Brutal Doom itself... EVEN THOUGH I CAN'T PLAY IT ;-;

[Reisal]

34 minutes ago, Praetor said:

AMD

My AMD Athlon 2 X3 450 (previous CPU) worked OK but this was with v19 and prior.

[Praetor]

Just now, Glaice said:

My AMD Athlon 2 X3 450 (previous CPU) worked OK but this was with v19 and prior.

I don't understand why my shit is broken then.

v19 worked perfectly, I think something changed in Brutal Doom prior to that release that started not working well with my system.

 

The recent update to GZDoom KIND OF fixed some of it, but it's still there. I've noticed that most of the lag comes when I am shot at and I see screen effects. But it also happens when I shoot at enemies. So I don't know.

[Reisal]

The constant calling of scripts per monster per tic (for head/limbs) really bogs things down.

[Chezza]

I'm keen to try this. I love BD like a fat kid loves cake.

 

I have a long weekend coming up so I'm set. When I give it a good play I'll give my opinion.

[Praetor]

Just now, Glaice said:

The constant calling of scripts per monster per tic (for head/limbs) really bogs things down.

Is GZDoom just unoptimized then, or is it Brutal Doom, or both? I don't have any trouble playing current generation games at all. Surely to god if I can handle Doom 2016 I can handle a mod for Doom, hm? 

[Edward850]

28 minutes ago, Praetor said:

Is GZDoom just unoptimized then, or is it Brutal Doom, or both? I don't have any trouble playing current generation games at all. Surely to god if I can handle Doom 2016 I can handle a mod for Doom, hm? 

Brutal Doom is hilariously unoptimised, yes. It mostly spaghetti code cobbled together from other people's work, and sgt mark doesn't understand enough programming theory to keep it held together sane.

 

Meanwhile GZDoom has the slowest Nuts.wad performance of all currently used Doom ports. We aren't allowed to call it unoptimised though so take that as you will.

[Graf Zahl]

The problem is not lack of optimization but higher complexity of engine code. You cannot have all those features with no price to pay.

If a function like PIT_CheckThing is 4x as long as the original id version it will inevitably cost some performance. But even then, you got to have several 1000 of monsters being awake all at once for this to become a problem.

 

What happens here is something entirely different: It's not just unoptimized script code but mostly all the stuff flying around that all calls more script code that spawns even more stuff. If a single dying monster can create up to 100 pieces of debris you can do the math if that gets called multiple times in parallel.

[Praetor]

Just now, Edward850 said:

Brutal Doom is hilariously unoptimised, yes. It mostly spaghetti code cobbled together from other people's work, and sgt mark doesn't understand enough programming theory to keep it held together sane.

 

Meanwhile GZDoom has the slowest Nuts.wad performance of all currently used Doom ports. We aren't allowed to call it unoptimised though so take that as you will.

Well shit.

I wish that someone would make a Brutal Doom fork with better optimization and programming. I actually might take that upon myself one day to do once I get the know how. I only just now started learning C after 4 years of fucking with high level languages, and I would like to go learn some game programming and multiplayer programming along with ASM before I start fucking with GZDoom on Github.

 

On that note,

Just now, Graf Zahl said:

The problem is not lack of optimization but higher complexity of engine code. You cannot have all those features with no price to pay.

If a function like PIT_CheckThing is 4x as long as the original id version it will inevitably cost some performance. But even then, you got to have several 1000 of monsters being awake all at once for this to become a problem.

 

What happens here is something entirely different: It's not just unoptimized script code but mostly all the stuff flying around that all calls more script code that spawns even more stuff. If a single dying monster can create up to 100 pieces of debris you can do the math if that gets called multiple times in parallel.

Hogwash.

You can have tons of features, it's just you have to extend your engine to properly allow for it, and you can't have tons of shitty code lying around to make things worse. Also, the engine/base has to be made with these features in mind. You can't just throw new features on top of it.

 

But really though, if what GZDoom is doing is just throwing all these new features on top of IDs engine, then maybe the answer here is to just take the Morrowind modding community route and just create an entire new engine with current hardware in mind.