Using official levels as a base?

[rabidrage]

I'm just wondering what the rules are about this, considering that acquiring the official IWADs for free is strictly forbidden, as is sharing content that someone else made without giving credit (positions I support!).  If I have edited Hangar, for example, to the point where it's got some new textures, light levels, decor and even some new sectors drawn in, can I share it?

[Memfis]

Eternal made a level where he used all 32 levels of doom2.wad and nobody seemed to mind.

[BigDickBzzrak]

It's ok if you're famous, otherwise god forbid.

[Doomkid]

I believe we eventually came to the conclusion that edited iwad maps are okay as long as there's some change of note (not just adding 1 imp and calling it done). There was a thread a year or so ago and, iirc, this was the result. If I'm wrong please correct me.

[RjY]

/idgames is very strict about disallowing modified iwad content. You won't find memorial.wad (the wad memfis mentioned) there.

[rabidrage]

Guess I'd be staying off of /idgames, then.  I'll upload it to ModDB at least.  I want to heavily modify Knee-Deep in the Dead, with a tougher, faster progression.  I'm experimenting with using absolutely no ambient lighting (so this would be exclusively GL-friendly) without destroying framerate, and not doing half bad as far as my own 4-year-old computer is concerned.  I want to also give the windows middle textures so it makes sense that you can't jump through them (now that source ports allow us to jump), change the switches to voxels, add Doom II stuff and other new things, and just modernize it without going full-on Brutal Doom on it.

[TimeOfDeath666]

When I edit an iwad map, I first build a replica from scratch (no copy/pasting from original to replica) and then add new stuff after.

[Doomkid]

I'm not actually sure how strict the "no iwad edits" rule is even for idgames - there's a litany of wads that do include modified iwad maps including the super-popular greenwar.wad among others. When I get home I'll do a proper search for that old thread that clarifies everything, some valuable info there iirc that should probably be more readily accessible.

[Nevander]

To be absolutely safe, re-draw it from scratch by using the original as comparison. The IWAD maps aren't exactly heavily detailed, so recreation is pretty straightforward. There will be differences and people will notice that it was remade from scratch.

[Mr.Rocket]

Sorry if I didn't interrupt this entirely as I should, I'm tiered and I had a few beers ..so here we go:

My thoughts? Your doing it wrong...

 

Step 1. If I made a map, but I wasn't to fond of it but went ahead and released it, though I wanted to update it later on and make it a proud presentation, but then before I had a chance, some one took it away from me. I would be fuck'n pissed..

 

Step 2. If you can open up the editor and draw a single linedef, then make your OWN damn map..

 

Cheers

 

ps, I mean really, if you're in to editing an Iwad or any pre-made wad for that matter, it would be like playing a cover tune and adding stuff to it.. 

 

So, I donno, it just doesn't jive with me..

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Mr.Rocket

[Arctangent]

1 hour ago, Mr.Rocket said:

Step 2. If you can open up the editor and draw a single linedef, then make your OWN damn map..

i'm glad we can establish that works like ancient aliens took all the effort of drawing 32 linedefs, really eye-opening

[Jimmy]

It is far more enriching for the beginner creator to experiment with their own material than to base their work off someone else's. It can be tempting to take existing material that is out there, and pass it off entirely as your own work, when it demonstrably isn't (believe me, after 24 years of this stuff, many of us are eagle-eyed), and this is the worst stance to take as a creator - not to say you will do this, but it's been a problem in the past and still is today, with people who inexplicably get really attached to their lifting of other people's work, often without any notable modification.

[RjY]

3 hours ago, Jimmy said:

It is far more enriching for the beginner creator to experiment with their own material than to base their work off someone else's

Depends on the individual. I've had much more success remixing and modifying existing material than trying to create new stuff from nothing. The results of my work compiling and fixing {2,3}00minvr was far better and more well-received than the maps I did for them. And I'm far happier with the results of my patching the engine than any of the programs I've tried to write from scratch. It depends how your brain works.

Agree with all your points about fully crediting the authors of works you're modifying of course.

[rabidrage]

For a couple of you who replied up there, I need to clarify that I'm mostly just interested in the rules regarding such things.  Does it matter if the wad gets snubbed because people don't like how it was made?  Of course.  But I feel like it's a waste of time and an idea to redraw everything from scratch (except for the "to be safe" reason), or to start a whole new map when I have something awesome I can make out of existing maps.  I like cover songs, and I like reimaginings of Doom maps.  Even if I draw a new one, I didn't make Doom, did I?  There's such a wealth of material out there--25 years of maps, mods, sprites, sounds...I'm trying to be efficient.

[Mr.Rocket]

I don't want to sound like the bad guy here, I'm really not heh.

But the rule is basically..

We aren't suppose to modify the original artwork including maps, sound, music, graphics etc.

Even though we've seen it all the time, for a long time, it still doesn't make it right, because it's actually copyrighted.

 

I play drums, I play cover tunes as well, but I look at it as practice.

My guitar player tends to have a lot of cover music in his head, and that's ok, so we play that stuff also.

But if it were up to me I'd like to play all original music, but then again I didn't invent the sound that the drum set will make, I can only compose what I want it to sound like. The difference is it would be 100% my creation.

 

 

 

 

 

[Vorpal]

I don't think there is a real taboo about it. For the /idgames archive the rule was necessary to pacify whoever was footing the bill, they don't need to be worrying about C&D requests. It's not about "taste" or "respect for the designers" or whatever. plutonia m32 was likely responsible for the slaughter genre we have today, and dwango5 m01 is so legendary that it almost nullifies all efforts made in dm mapping that came after it, because still it's all everyone wants to play. So modifying an iwad map is bone deep in doom mod culture imo.

 

It would only be lame if you tried to claim credit, and also did not cite the original author.

[rabidrage]

2 hours ago, Mr.Rocket said:

I don't want to sound like the bad guy here, I'm really not heh.

But the rule is basically..

We aren't suppose to modify the original artwork including maps, sound, music, graphics etc.

Even though we've seen it all the time, for a long time, it still doesn't make it right, because it's actually copyrighted.

 

I play drums, I play cover tunes as well, but I look at it as practice.

My guitar player tends to have a lot of cover music in his head, and that's ok, so we play that stuff also.

But if it were up to me I'd like to play all original music, but then again I didn't invent the sound that the drum set will make, I can only compose what I want it to sound like. The difference is it would be 100% my creation.

 

 

 

 

 

The funny thing about creative endeavors is that they're all derivative.  Even if you think you've made something original, you've been influenced by something.  Sometimes we copy without even consciously knowing.  So it's an open and subjective question.  When is something original?  When are you a creator?  That doesn't stop me from giving credit for the new iteration, however.  If it's not different enough, yeah, it's lame.  If it is, come on, you did something.  You were a part of it.  Some cover songs barely resemble what they're covers of.  Some are a thousand times more listenable than the original.  So if the cover artist isn't a good songwriter, what are they good at?  They're good at something, obviously.  They transformed a song and made something you like.

Edited November 6, 2017 by rabidrage

[Shadow Hog]

Timely that this thread came up, as over the weekend I was dabbling with a fusion between E1M1 and MAP01. Redrew what I could from memory, then referenced the actual map data to tweak a few things (mostly heights/texture usage). I'm not sure I'm actually gonna use it for the project I'm making, though; while I can see some merit to having a familiar introductory level to help sell the point of the map set I'm making, having such a blatant riff on well-tread maps probably also isn't putting my best foot forward. (Potentially barring myself from /idgames is also pretty strong disincentive.)