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leodoom85

Painful Cave (Remastered)

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Hey, ladies and gentleman....I present to you my first attempt to do a speedmap called Painful Cave.

Screenshots:

Spoiler

1.jpg.e58276fa022380d9c266ee4205cb680d.jpg

2.jpg.587955006afe32fb0c137a839820ed9b.jpg

3.jpg.1c213af159e90a766403d24ac634a7d9.jpg

 

This is a map that was inspired by the limitations of the current speedmaps like the Pigeon and Eagle Speedmapping sessions. The limitations were the following:

Older rules:

Spoiler

Only the chaingun and the berserk is available besides the pistol (gg me).

There's only 6 textures used+1 switch texture and 6 flats+sky.

No zombies are allowed except the chaingunners (because they drop their weapon, obviously).

Time limit of between 3 to 4 hours for making the map.

Now there's no more limitations for the map....finally!!! I added more areas for more fun.

So, without further ado, the info of the map....

 

This is a Boom compatible map, designed for Doom II.

It replaces MAP01, it has all difficulty settings.

It's only for Single Player mode. Not anymore, I added co-op gameplay.

IMPORTANT NOTE: You need cc4tex.wad for the textures.

Tested with PrBoom+ 2.5.1.4, Zandronum 3.0 alpha-r170709-2004 and GZDoom 3.2.1 (let me know if there are some bugs)

And most importantly, it can be hard and painful (hence the name) depending of the player's gameplay style.

 

Credits goes to Myst. Haruko, Nine Inch Heels and other people from Discord for testing, help and feedback. Jimmy for the track called "Battle Strategy" used in Plutonia 2, map 09. The CC4 team for making the cc4-tex pack (a well known pack) and of course...to Doom.

One last thing before I go...I'll do a remake of this map when there's enough feedback for this map. This is a test of mine to see how the players can play with such a limitation. Good or bad, I'll listen all constructive criticisms. The remaking process is done....YAY!!!!

Well....that's it for no.....wait a sec.... Where's the download link for the map eh? Where is it????
 

IDGames version --->https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/p-r/paincav2

 

You can get the texture pack in here (It's included) ---->https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/megawads/cchest4
Or here ---->https://www.wad-archive.com/wad/3b2ae93bc2cfb06e97ec4f2687ba6050

 

That's it for this madness. Enjoy the map and have fun or suffer and die painfully......HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Edited by leodoom85

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11 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

Only the chaingun and the berserk is available besides the pistol (gg me).

So, were those the limitations of the speedmapping session, or did you choose those for yourself then?

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14 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

So, were those the limitations of the speedmapping session, or did you choose those for yourself then?

I added that rule.

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I don't think that this map needs remake. As speedmap it plays and looks good, I would leave it be, unless people will exploit some errors. 

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11 minutes ago, Myst.Haruko said:

I don't think that this map needs remake.

The list of changes I proposed to leodoom on discord was quite extensive. That said, the map is in need of changes in terms of gameplay from my POV.

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5 minutes ago, Myst.Haruko said:

Well, I won't argue with that. Gameplay changes are always important for better experience. 

Yes, I totally agree on that. But don't worry, NIH gave me some nice feedback for the next version of the map. 

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UV Max (1 monster stuck in the teleporter cage)

paincave-642.zip

 

This map should be called "deng cave", and I should also hope for a sequel called "whua cave"...

 

Also, are you going to use this to punish people who said Chaingun is too weak? Then I can't see another potential series of this ;P  "Doom Misbehavior Correction Series Map01 - Chaingun is Weak", then the next map will be "Super Shotgun is Too Strong" and given a bunch of snipers with only SSG lol.

 

Well, that Arch-vile is a headache, but I got killed by a random Revenant after killing the Arch-vile at least twice. That's sad.

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Here's a casual max with my mod to make the chaingun 4x as powerful. 1 monster can't be killed.

 

 

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4 hours ago, GarrettChan said:

Also, are you going to use this to punish people who said Chaingun is too weak? Then I can't see another potential series of this ;P  "Doom Misbehavior Correction Series Map01 - Chaingun is Weak", then the next map will be "Super Shotgun is Too Strong" and given a bunch of snipers with only SSG lol.

Hmmmmm.....not a bad idea though...

Nah, that would be too much punishment for the players already.

 

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8 hours ago, leodoom85 said:

Hmmmmm.....not a bad idea though...

Nah, that would be too much punishment for the players already.

Just to point out what my personal stance on concepts like weapon limitation is:

 

If you put people in a position in which they are lacking the firepower to kill things quickly, there should a reason for you to do so. What I mean is that it's certainly possible to create gameplay based solely around the CG and the Zerk, but you gotta play that card well (I believe it's possible to create interesting gameplay around any weapon in doom, to some extent). What your map does not accomplish is to deliver a sense of pressure that makes your weapon choices meaningful for the purpose of gameplay. That said, you aren't, actually, "punishing" players based on the idea that they have very little in the way of firepower, you are simply making them spend more time, because they have little in the way of firepower - and those are two vastly different things.

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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29 minutes ago, galileo31dos01 said:

Well this is something. What am I doing wrong?

Edited the OP by adding the CC4 texture pack necessity...

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44 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Just to point out what my personal stance on concepts like weapon limitation is:

 

If you put people in a position in which they are lacking the firepower to kill things quickly, there should a reason for you to do so. What I mean is that it's certainly possible to create gameplay based solely around the CG and the Zerk, but you gotta play that card well (I believe it's possible to create interesting gameplay around any weapon in doom, to some extent). What your map does not accomplish is to deliver is a sense of pressure that makes your weapon choices meaningful for the purpose of gameplay. That said, you aren't, actually, "punishing" players based on the idea that they have very little in the way of firepower, you are simply making them spend more time, because they have little in the way of firepower - and those are two vastly different things.

Then let me ask you this. If a SSG or a RL or a PG were in there instead of the chaingun (still without adding those weapons in the map), could it be better by allowing faster and better gameplay?

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Hey, you know, you can multiquote people in one post if you press + near "quote" even in phone. It saves space and double posting. No harm mean ;)

 

Maybe later I will record demo again and post on youtube. 

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Oh, it's fine now, thanks.

 

Just played on HMP and UV. So, the map is aesthetically good, the various trees scattered around don't interfere with movement so that's a plus. Gameplay wise is generally on the low pressure. That means that the chaingun and berserk for almost everything is probably not the best option for the map as it is now, in my opinion. The blue skull key room is good for some infighting, but the rest takes some time to clean: in the big cave, running around is an option but that made killing the more distant revs a bit slow with the chaingun, at least mancs helped. I liked that you slightly repopulated the road between the cave and starting area, though it still was more of the same. The ending new enemies that include the archvile on UV demanded door-camping, and it takes time to clear too. Nevertheless, as a whole the map is ok, but I still think it could be upgraded to make the concept flow better, like, I don't know, making the imps from the initial area teleport into the blue key room if you ignored them before (is that a good alternative?). I don't have demos but my first runs took me 9 and 11 minutes respectively, no deaths. I'll record a couple later. 

 

Also, this enemy fails to wake up:

 

Spoiler

doom01.png.02d68c339913cc2ff4ed9a1dfd214221.png

 

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7 minutes ago, galileo31dos01 said:

Oh, it's fine now, thanks.

 

Just played on HMP and UV. So, the map is aesthetically good, the various trees scattered around don't interfere with movement so that's a plus. Gameplay wise is generally on the low pressure. That means that the chaingun and berserk for almost everything is probably not the best option for the map as it is now, in my opinion. The blue skull key room is good for some infighting, but the rest takes some time to clean: in the big cave, running around is an option but that made killing the more distant revs a bit slow with the chaingun, at least mancs helped. I liked that you slightly repopulated the road between the cave and starting area, though it still was more of the same. The ending new enemies that include the archvile on UV demanded door-camping, and it takes time to clear too. Nevertheless, as a whole the map is ok, but I still think it could be upgraded to make the concept flow better, like, I don't know, making the imps from the initial area teleport into the blue key room if you ignored them before (is that a good alternative?). I don't have demos but my first runs took me 9 and 11 minutes respectively, no deaths. I'll record a couple later. 

 

Also, this enemy fails to wake up:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

doom01.png.02d68c339913cc2ff4ed9a1dfd214221.png

 

I see that gameplay flow and time used for speedrunners to complete the maps are the complains that I'm getting. Don't worry. All of that will be fixed in a next version for sure :).

About teleporting the imps in the beginning might be a good idea but I need some thinking for that. And I thought that the monster was teleporting correctly in that skill, I'll fix it when I'll get to home because I'm working...I don't have the privilege of time, you know.

 

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I don't know what happened by sending the message twice...maybe my phone signal fucked it up...oops

Edited by leodoom85

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25 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

Then let me ask you this. If a SSG or a RL or a PG were in there instead of the chaingun (still without adding those weapons in the map), could it be better by allowing faster and better gameplay?

None of the weapons are "better or worse" by default, when you look at it from a gameplay point of view. It all depends on what you put the weapon up against. If you replaced the chaingun with the plasma gun, the map would still be easy (in fact it would become even easier), the bonus would be that it takes less time to finish in that case which might make it feel less grindy overall (maybe).

 

If what you want is to be restrictive with weapons/ammo, you need to design your fights around that in order to make the map play in an interesting way. Your map in its current state doesn't seem to be designed for any weapon in particular, because you can finish it with any weapon that can hit things from range comfortably. That said, doing all the "heavy lifting" with the chaingun does not elevate your map, which is why I suggested (before you upload the map to the forums) giving an SSG as reward for the blue-key fight, and getting rid of the zerk in favour of a rocket launcher and few boxes of rockets, so that players at least have some tactical nukes to work with in order to get the vile and the baron taken care of a bit more quickly, for example.

 

If you would like to stick to, let's say, only 2 weapons for the entire map, regardless of which ones those may be, you will have to redesign most of your fights in order to get something out of that concept. In other words, the idea of limiting your map to chaingun and berserk feels "tacked on" at the moment.

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If this map would be included in speedmapping compilation x with the same rules, I don't think that people would bash it so hard as it now. Heck, if I would release my speedmaps outside of pigeon compilations, they would suck hard.  Considering that op mostly works with hexen/udmf mapping formats and never did speedmap before in boom format(so no manipulation with scripts), I would say to leave it be expanded with some changes and build another speedmap with different approach when he wishes to do that. It's a first speedmap after all and not all maps must include shotguns or plasma guns. 

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15 minutes ago, Myst.Haruko said:

If this map would be included in speedmapping compilation x with the same rules, I don't think that people would bash it so hard as it now.

Who is "bashing" a speedmap by holding it to the standards of a "regular map", for example?

 

The idea behind the map was to limit people to a set of two weapons as well as creating it in a fairly short amount of time. That said, the speedmapping attempt went well enough in terms of creating a map that "works", but the gameplay concept for the map, which has been chosen by the authour himself, created more drawbacks than it created advantages. Nobody said every map has to have every weapon in it, but this map would benefit greatly from offering more choices, especially because the berserk is not a factor at all, which means there only really is one weapon to use here. And that, of course, is worth pointing out. Which by the way has nothing to do with "bashing".

 

If what you want is to help people get better at what they're doing, you can't just say "it's a speedmap, so don't criticize it", because that doesn't work, either.

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Here's an FDA: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8p5bviakt0zjj0b/paincave_fda_benjogami.lmp?dl=1

 

I agree that the monster choices don't seem tailored for the chaingun, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I thought the archvile fight was fun with the chaingun because of how ill-suited it is, for example. I suggest trying out doors that monsters can open, since you'll see me abusing the doors a bit. If the monsters could open them, it would make the door combat more dangerous and interesting (if the archvile was able to push the player back into the winding cave tunnel, for example).

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Feels a lot more polished than most speedmaps I've played. Also more fun. Interesting limitation. A Chaingun would not be my preferred weapon against some of the higher-tier enemies, but with enough ammo and cover, it works. One bug: one imp did not teleport in. Sector tagged 17 does not have a teleport landing spot. Nice work.

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35 minutes ago, EffinghamHuffnagel said:

Feels a lot more polished than most speedmaps I've played. Also more fun. Interesting limitation. A Chaingun would not be my preferred weapon against some of the higher-tier enemies, but with enough ammo and cover, it works. One bug: one imp did not teleport in. Sector tagged 17 does not have a teleport landing spot. Nice work.

Sector 17? Got it, thanks.

EDIT: Updated the link in OP for the teleporting fix, replaced the last baron with a HK and added a couple of monsters in the cave.

Edited by leodoom85

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Played on HMP, then died in front of the exit switch (yes), then said "screw it" and tried to breeze thru the level as if I were Zero-Master, resulting in several more deaths

(prboom+ cl9)

 

Overall the map was very beatiful and easy, although I do have to say that you've chosen a quite ugly switch texture. There's not a single "locked door" it opens in the map, heh. Good stuff

8/10

paincave-fda-bada$$bzzrak.zip

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