I can't help but find speedrunning miserable

[Jimmy]

Clarifying the title, I will watch and enjoy speedruns... but I will never do them myself. I'm just not cut out for it.

 

In trying to set par times for my projects, I always end up in a blistering fit of juvenile rage that would probably find me in a "cringe" compilation on YouTube. How do you guys do it?

 

The task of not only finding the optimum route to beat incredibly complex maps, in a matter of seconds sometimes, coupled with the brutality of Doom's RNG and its weird physics system, is something I just cannot see myself willfully engaging with, ever.

 

Monsters pile up into impossible mosh pits that involve me having to chisel through them, often with the pistol. One zombieman will block a crucial elevator going up. Shotgun shots will refuse to kill an imp point-blank. All of these variables in Doom's gameplay conspire to create a vicious cocktail of bad luck that seems to run through my every playthrough when I'm playing even just a little bit speedily. These circumstances become unavoidable too when I start saving my game and therefore the RNG (horror of horrors) in a bid to cut down the grueling amount of time it takes me - I will be the first to admit, not a very good player - to run one map.

 

My time is precious and it can't be wasted getting angry at a videogame because I keep dying due to circumstances that I am seemingly unable to control or influence. What's the deal? Are there saner ways to approach this way of playing, and to set down par times for my maps, ones that don't involve my blood curdling?

 

in b4 "git gud scrublord"

or someone says "design your maps better for speedrunners you dingus"

Edited November 22, 2017 by Jimmy

[GarrettChan]

I don't know about others, but I actually don't pay attention to par time... Also, par time is kind of awkward because I don't know whether this par time is for Max or Speed.

 

In my opinion, there's no need to force yourself into running map to get the best result, and most of the time, even speedrunners said map is not nice for speedruns or such, they will get around those "problems" themselves by looking for a better approach or something... It's difficult to develop a map which is fun for everyone and fits everyone's taste.

[rehelekretep]

i think you have to be a bit mental to speedrun doom.

 

there's the inherent rng of course, and then the extra and arbitrary categories (most games have a speed category +/- difficulty settings, and then even some just run only on the 'fastest' difficulty)

if you dont enjoy speedrunning doom, then dont do it; quite simple.

if you would prefer to keep trying i can recommend 2 things:

 

1) enjoy the process, not just trying to get a certain time. optimising the route, finding new tricks, gliding through or around a difficult bit is all part of the fun. even in nomo's, just the process of finding a new little line round a set of corners can be entertaining. Ancalagon said something along the lines of 'pick a route, and some snacks and enjoy'. i try and enjoy the bad luck if its humorous, and if im not in a good mood or a map is starting to annoy me, ill just quit.

2) certain categories on certain maps are going to be more fun than others. a simple example is dont try and do a NM run through a hitscanner nightmare if it means <1% of runs even exit. but other categories can be fun in weird ways; stroller is quite cool sometimes, Tyson/Pacifist can force you to be creative with infighting, Speed makes you look for skips/keygrabs/glides, Max lets you learn the map and find efficient use of ammo/powerups etc. not all categories will appeal to each person - for example i am finding the routing and ammo choices of Max less and less attractive as i do more runs and play more Doom.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

It takes a very long time to prepare and do. Let alone get a high score. You can look it at like any other competitive game; Not really worth doing seriously unless you are ready to dedicate a lot of time for it. Getting angry and frustrated is ok, It'll happen when you are trying to do things perfectly (Like doing a hard platformer with very tight jumps).

[Memfis]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

me - I will be the first to admit, not a very good player

I think this is what it boils down to. You need to be a good player in order to enjoy speedrunning. If you're not that great at simply surviving, of course you will be failing all the time when trying to play very fast and risky.

 

Are there any games that you're really skilled at? Have you tried speedrunning them? I'm sure you would enjoy that more. Or, forget games, what about composing? You've made a lot of speedmidis and I'm sure you had tons of fun with them, right? That's because you're an experienced musician.

[geo]

I've only been able to speed run 4 things... Super Mario 1, Contra 1, Contra 3 and AVGN Adventure's final level because I played them so much that I just got better. I think it was 2 hours on that final AVGN level. The kicker is I had forgotten how to plant my feet and shoot diagonally. Once I found that out I beat the boss the next try.

 

Speed running just happens organically sometimes.

 

Then there are glitch runs... I avoid those.

[UglyStru]

It's really just persistence. Not happy with your current time? Do it again. Failed? Do it again. Speedrunners are masochists who enjoy doing these things over and over and over again until they get as close to perfect as they possibly could. Or maybe that makes them autists, idk. I'm on the spectrum and I hate speedrunning just as much as you, and for the same reasons. 

[Worm318]

Relevant video for this thread (?)
 

 

[Ichor]

I can't do speedruns because I'm always too tempted to shoot everything I come across. That and I really don't like looking at incompletely filled automaps for some reason.

[GarrettChan]

1 hour ago, rehelekretep said:

for example i am finding the routing and ammo choices of Max less and less attractive as i do more runs and play more Doom.

Well, definitely true. Probably you'll find maps too boring to run because of difficulty or other types of reasons, but still, I hate you indirectly did... something to me (JK). Also, I'm using Q for BFG because of your settings again ;P

 

 

35 minutes ago, stru said:

autists

I guess I seriously need to check myself XD

[rehelekretep]

haha Q for BFG is best - panic button ;)

yeah max is the big daddy but i just find it tiresome tbh; you dont have to do just Max @GarrettChan - break free and do the real categories!!

[leodoom85]

Speedruns?...more like "gotta go fast". I tried some speedruns here and there and it's just some perseverance and the best of your skills to achieve the best time. Of course, as Jimmy said, it's not for everyone...

[Cruduxy Pegg]

18 minutes ago, Worm318 said:

Relevant video for this thread (?)
 

 

Ahh map02 to the pits.. The real nightmare on nightmare difficulty is right near the start.. (Bonus for living end and monster condo)

[GarrettChan]

5 minutes ago, rehelekretep said:

haha Q for BFG is best - panic button ;)

Before using Q, I usually need to hit 5, 6 and 7 in order to actually pull out my BFG lol  It's quite difficult for your left index finger to reach 7.

 

Yeah, that's why I did some NM Speed recently to have a change.

[rehelekretep]

i believe in Doom.exe Q = quit game so thank god for sourceports :D

[Pegleg]

2 hours ago, rehelekretep said:

if you dont enjoy speedrunning doom, then dont do it; quite simple.

+1

 

At the end of the day, Doom is a game. Games are meant to be fun. If you find yourself becoming miserable by playing a certain way (speedrun, pacifist, etc.) but find yourself having fun playing a different way (normal, Tyson, etc.), then play Doom in the way that brings you the most enjoyment.

[Maes]

Well, being a speedrunner is pretty much a smaller niche inside a small niche (watching and appreciating speedruns) inside a small niche (classic Doom gaming) inside another niche (gaming). What did you expect? Of course past a certain point it's going to become so overspecialized and restricting that it simply isn't everybody's cup of tea.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Maes

[j4rio]

git gud scrublord

[Vorpal]

2 hours ago, stru said:

It's really just persistence.

While I'm not into speedrunning for Doom, I have to agree with this sentiment from other games I've gotten competitive at. 90-95% of it is going through the map/level and memorizing the "what threat tends to be at [location x] at [time y]". Mental and physical skill (route planning, reaction time, aim, etc.) is probably like 10% of the equation, especially since very few speedrunners actually develop their own routes as opposed to refining already-known routes. Those dudes who do develop viable routes and uncover tricks are wizards and they're "household names" in this community even among folks who are only tangentially into speedrunning.

[baja blast rd.]

6 minutes ago, Vorpal said:

Mental and physical skill (route planning, reaction time, aim, etc.) is probably like 10% of the equation, especially since very few speedrunners actually develop their own routes as opposed to refining already-known routes. Those dudes who do develop viable routes and uncover tricks are wizards and they're "household names" in this community even among folks who are only tangentially into speedrunning.

Is this still about "other games" as well (as opposed to Doom)? Because every statement here is wrong, if it's about Doom. Not just "subjectively" but factually wrong, as well, with the "very few speedrunners actually develop their own routes" part.

 

[Killer5]

My time is precious and it can't be wasted getting angry at a videogame because I keep dying due to circumstances that I am seemingly unable to control or influence. What's the deal? Are there saner ways to approach this way of playing, and to set down par times for my maps, ones that don't involve my blood curdling?

Depends on what your goals are. Par times are par times. My view on par times is basically a baseline to beat the map with foreknowledge. Since you made the map you know everything about it. Beat the map the way it was intended to be played and add a bit of time to it. People probably wont beat this time blind. Then you have an effective par time (at least in my opinion).

 

This has been my approach on a couple maps I have released for uv-max par times.

[Vorpal]

Most of my comments were about speedrunning/competition in general (with regard to single player titles), aside from the "wizards we know, here" nugget. The process that most normies like myself go about is to delve into a game mechanics guide/FAQ, study a world record achieved by somebody else, and then bang away at it (taking note of areas where the world record contained mistakes/inefficiencies). As someone with shit reflexes I've done this more than once in more than one vidya, ofc it takes me like 3 months and then the Actually Good original record holder comes back in a week with an even better time.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Map editors and demos can help a lot. It is easier to find your mistakes from a demo than in real time, same with measuring in a map editor compared to in real time or with a stop watch (although a stop watch is pretty good). There is no shortcut to practicing, The more you try the more you'll progress. And when you hit a wall, you have the tools to figure out the problem.

 

If it is still too hard or time consuming why not ask some people to take a shot at it? Worst case scenario it is still a par time it doesn't have to be a world record; Design it around the skill of an average player instead of a dedicated speed runner. 

 

[scifista42]

To set par times for your maps, just guess some roughly plausible numbers and put them there.

[Grazza]

Bear in mind that some maps are better suited to certain categories than others. Also some maps are simply more demo-friendly than others, and it also depends very much on the player's style. It could be that you're trying to Max maps where the monsters "spray" all over the map or can get stuck in all sorts of stupid places (in which case you may need a different strategy) or to Speed maps where it's not realistic without slow play and killing a fair number of monsters. Or perhaps you're unaware of how many attempts and how much planning can be needed to produce the smooth elegant demos that you're seeing others make.

 

So I am saying adjust your goals. Find some maps (possibly smaller ones) where you can see yourself enjoying recording in some particular categories (there are plenty of them) and take it from there. Your skillset should develop as you take on more and varied challenges, and you'll have a better idea how to make things less frustrating for yourself, or at least what kind of tasks you should best avoid.

 

Also read some of the discussion threads in the demos forum. By the way, if you had posted this thread there (where it certainly belongs), you would have ensured it would have been seen by those best placed to offer useful advice.

 

A couple of threads worth looking at:

Learning to Speedrun

What makes a good Max?

 

Of course, it's possible that you're just not temperamentally suited to recording demos. It can be a time-consuming and frustrating activity at the best of times. And yes, c209 pacifist I'm looking at you.

 

Edit: oh, you're just interested in setting par times? Seriously, who cares about that?

[Ichor]

23 minutes ago, scifista42 said:

To set par times for your maps, just guess some roughly plausible numbers and put them there.

1:45 for Misri Halek?

2:30 for Cacophony?

 

Seems legit.

[Ancalagon]

Cause it's miserable.

[SilverIce]

4 hours ago, rehelekretep said:

i believe in Doom.exe Q = quit game so thank god for sourceports :D

I think that's only if you're recording demos (using -record.)

 

[Obsidian]

My attitude towards par times in general is "Frankly my dear, I don't give a darn.": it's served me well over the years.

[Gez]

The day I found out that it was generally impossible to get a triple 100% while under par time was the day I decided par times were bogus.