Level design tropes you dislike

44 minutes ago, NeedHealth said:

How would you use Barons of Hell effectively ?

There are quite a few ways actually. Considering the Baron of Hell's tanky like nature, yet slow and none threatening moevment, Tight spaces work great to make him a threat, Plopping one in a crowd of enemies as an infighting option is always due for some fun. With their 1k hp bar, they are quite good at creating pressure.

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53 minutes ago, NeedHealth said:

How would you use Barons of Hell effectively ?

Treat it like a mini boss, E1M8 is a perfect example of this, theres nothing worse than having to deal with multiple barons at the same time because the balance becomes fucked within tight corridors. Open areas? maybe, Its just boring and repetitive to kill that many barons and having to wait for that ssg to reload to shoot again. If theirs a Plasma rifle with lets say, 300 cells, or even a BFG, then I'd totally be fine with such broad usage of barons. That is why I'm thankful for the hell knight, its a way of putting a tough enemy in who can also die quick if you know how to deal with them.

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7 hours ago, Lüt said:

This was a thing that was used sparingly throughout the original game to make you jump unexpectedly and provide a little paranoia going forward. These days, it's a surprise if it doesn't happen.

Couldn't agree more! In a recent map of mine I had a red key in a room being guarded by a Baron. One of the reviews complained it was "anti-climactic" that nothing spawned in after picking up the red key.

 

It hasn't even occurred to me to spawn anything in! 

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Jump and run WADs anyone? *cough cough* some ridiculous worlds of LA!

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New thread name should be: "How would you use Barons of Hell effectively ?" >:3

 

Either way, to dip in a bit of my opinion in respek to the original thread;

 

- Too much of the same color. 'Specially if its mud-brown or green. Can hurt my poor eyes (I know I know, Doom wasn't designed with any other color in mind, and that Jotaro Romero wanted to commemorate his dead kitty by putting the color of its fur in the code, and that Jonathan Carsmack was to lazy to rebel)

- Relying on having the player using the exact weapons for every sequence of his map. I know I know, "speedrunners", "that shotgun would not make any sense otherwise", "I am a noobface", I get it. But a little variation, how is that a sin? At least I would like the illusion of choice.

- Fake difficulty.

 

I know, I know, I am a noobface that should get gud.

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7 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

People putting stuff in their maps, because they think it's popular

 

(Barons)

What stuff, like Stimpacks because they are so popular through the whole lifespan of the game? ;P

 

Yeah, usually the standard of Barons to me, it's just say whether they're a threat, or whether they're just tedious to kill. To be honest, it's not a good example in E1M8 and E2M9 or something like that, but they're from the old stuff, so probably we shouldn't complain. (I'm not a mapper, so probably I don't have a good position to talk about this though.)

 

@FonzeHow did you read my mind :D

 

@rehelekretepI think people just spam Revenants because they hate them and they want to see the players die...

Edited by GarrettChan
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E1m8 wouldn't make for an effective use of barons in a modern sense; you can kill both before the pinkies even get close enough to block a rocket.

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Honestly, I hate the opposite problem much more, going for the quest for more map isn't that fun when the map offers no pointers on what could even have changed, worst are probably doors that get opened by switches on the other side of the map, just use keys.

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34 minutes ago, Battle_Korbi said:

- Fake difficulty.

I would like to know what that is, because either stuff is difficult or it isn't.

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Typical megawad openers -- small, straightforward, oriented around pistol / SG / CG / maybe melee / maybe a RL and a few rockets -- that don't do anything interesting. Zzzzzzzzz.

 

When it becomes obvious that all encounters in a map(set) will be "fair and balanced", requiring sloppy play to die, and there won't really be any surprises. Takes the sting/fear off of impending encounters (which are usually telegraphed). 

 

Those maps that start you off with the SG and have you fight with that a lot, then give you the CG and have you fight with that a lot, and you might get the SSG or RL somewhere at the halfway mark, combat throughout largely being ambient/irrelevant/filler. Yawn. 

 

"""Smart monster placement""" that basically revolves around making low numbers of monsters really inconvenient/buggy to kill. What gets my goat more than anything are those high freely roaming ledge revenants that you either have to chaingun tap (gross) or hurl rockets at and hope to get lucky to kill fast (10 rocket revs, fun!).

 

Most maps released being too easy in casual play. 

 

Single PEs in open spaces complementing relatively harmless contingents of projectile monsters in "fair and balanced" maps (90%+ of them). The PE is not a "priority" threat if I can just calmly sit back and deal with everything in the area at my leisure, and still have scads of ammo to clean up souls if the PE gets freaky, so these are "cleanup encounters" from the get go.

 

Short maps that are trivial to beat but not fun to maxrun and don't do anything special.

 

Secrets that require precise jumps and are a lot harder to do in one attempt per run than basically any fight in the map is to survive.

 

Bad starts: pistol vs. shotgunner, lots of shit scattered around the room that you actually need but not in a convenient row or pile.

 

In advanced formats: arena fights that make you kill every monster in them to progress but aren't obviously very important end-of-map or boss-type fights.

 

Edited by rdwpa
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38 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

I would like to know what that is, because either stuff is difficult or it isn't.

Ehh, kinda like shitting on you by acting like its difficult, but is actually just a cheap trick. Here is a TVTropes link because I suck at explaining.

 

(But of course, all my arguments can be charted up to noobishness I guess...)

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1) Ammo starvation. I hate it! Especially if it is shotgun shells that are missing (that almost never happens, thankfully). Instead, I like it when I have 50-80 shells of shotgun ammo (100 is full, so it can be too much at times), use almost all of them and then switch to my chaingun, which managed to gather 400 bullets, while I was firing my shotgun. Then I start gathering ammo for my shotgun and so on. Sometimes, starvation is acceptable, but in a very small quantity.

2) Barons everywhere! I just can't accept that kind of monster placement. I mean, why don't they use Hell Knights instead??? They are way more fun to kill and seeing them in earlier levels in a megawad will not frustrate me.

3) Having to deal with Barons using the regular shotgun. Yes, it is my favourite weapon in the game and it will always be, but why do I have to kill Barons with 10 shots in close quarters (by the way, IT ALWAYS HAS TO BE CLOSE QUARTERS WITH BARONS!!!)?

I'll tell you why! Because it is very early in the game to face a Baron and the Rocket Launcher or the SSG (if playing Doom 2) was not given to me in the first place!

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Snipers that you can't hit. Even worse: fat snipers like arachnotrons or mancubi that you can't hit.

Hitscanner enemies spam. If sergeant doesn't have that many hp, it doesn't make it an easy enemy to kill.

Forcing the player to run around a map full of enemies that can't infight without killing them in order to progress.

 

So, basically, anything that requires a slow careful play or foreknowledge just to beat the map. Whoever finds the wad with all this stuff can consider themselves solving the bingo.

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Oh, I forgot resurrecting chaingunners. What a wonderful idea! At least be original and put some other monster there.

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1 hour ago, rdwpa said:

Typical megawad openers -- small, straightforward, oriented around pistol / SG / CG / maybe melee / maybe a RL and a few rockets -- that don't do anything interesting. Zzzzzzzzz.

 

Short maps that are trivial to beat but not fun to maxrun and don't do anything special.

 

I have a good feeling about the whereabouts of that :(

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8 hours ago, Memfis said:

brutally hard secret levels, especially map32 (Resurgence)

Eh?  Resurgence is an example of bucking this trend, if anything; neither secret level is anywhere close to being among the harder levels in the wad.

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Just now, NaZa said:

I have a good feeling about the whereabouts of that :(

Heh, your openers from what I've seen have been fine. Despite straightforward combat, they have a stronger-than-usual sense of atmosphere, and are moderately fun to maxrun.

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13 minutes ago, 40oz said:

Having played tons of Doom wads and having been a part of this forum for many years, ive realized these types "don't do this" threads have become moot.

This is a "level design tropes you dislike" and not a "don't do these things when making a doom map" thread :V

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To be honest 40, I think that's always been the case with threads like this. We all know the immortal phrase "you can't please everyone," and it applies here in that if you tried to make a map that didn't use any of the tropes listed in this thread you'd end up with sweet fa.

 

I still find it interesting to see what annoys other players though. I sometimes forget stuff that annoys me and then I see it written here and it reminds me not to put that stuff in a map because I don't like it either.

 

@SOSU Aspiring mappers may look at this thread and interpret this thread to be "don't do these things."

Edited by Eris Falling

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@Eris Falling well if they look at this and other thread like these they will also see us debating about that you should take this with a grain of salt so it kinda balances it out :P

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1 hour ago, rdwpa said:

Single PEs in open spaces complementing relatively harmless contingents of projectile monsters in "fair and balanced" maps (90%+ of them). The PE is not a "priority" threat if I can just calmly sit back and deal with everything in the area at my leisure, and still have scads of ammo to clean up souls if the PE gets freaky, so these are "cleanup encounters" from the get go.

Using the PE in such an encounter has a purpose beyond "priority target because of potential ammo drain" -- only the first LS charge is going to originate from the point that the PE is at.  This can be critical to shaping an encounter, because the second and beyond charges from alternate starting points control different lines and thus break up circle-strafe patterns.  This feature of the PE is its single most useful attribute, not the potential ammo drain or time pressures that many people often cite.

 

(I also don't entirely agree with you on bad starts, within reason.  I'll never not love the start of Hell Ground map 03.)

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47 minutes ago, 40oz said:

Having played tons of Doom wads and having been a part of this forum for many years, ive realized these types "don't do this" threads have become moot. Here's why:

I mostly consume threads like this to observe how the unwoke masses think, to help me understand how I can best defy them. B)

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I think this thread is more for fun than for serious discussion on the merits of various tropes. I can actually enjoy many of these I mentioned depending on the circumstances. "I just felt like complaining about something". ©

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The difference between a nitpick and the sticking point is the mood you encounter it in.

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2 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

I would like to know what that is, because either stuff is difficult or it isn't.

I think I have a good explanation: real difficulty is playing a megawad on Ultra Violence or Nightmare. fake difficulty is playing a megawad on I'm Too Young To Die, but if you take any damage, you must start the whole megawad from the beginning.

 

In custom map terms, good difficulty would be having to react quickly, think and adapt to the situation, and so on... fake difficulty would be no health whatsoever, completely unpredictable or unavoidable dangers, instakilling dangers in general.

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I really don't like it when enemies are aware of the player right when the level starts. The absolute worst case I've seen of this was in Plutonia Map10 (I think), where a chaingunner's pointed at your back the instant the map loads.

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- Cacoswarms I can run circles around without any fear of being blocked.

- Lost souls getting blocked by random item placement (this sounds like a fun idea for a secret encounter though.. use health/ammo items as a wall to prevent lost souls from getting at the player but require the player to have to use the items as some point.. so the lost souls get in anyways).

- Baron ammo tax (unless I have berserk at which point I forgive 99% of random monster placement).

- Escapable pits without some form of bizarre punishment.

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