Permabans, your opinions.

[killer2]

6 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Wait, people are actually defending the "have assholes around because they make good stuff" point now? Shit man, do you not see how making exceptions to the rules just because someone is talented is a shitty thing to do?

 

"This one idiot has to go, but the other idiot made some nice stuff so we are beholden to his will"

 

idk it just don't sit right with me

  This can be made in such a way that it's not an exception to the rules. The rules could be changed to state such:"Anyone is allowed to make posts to advertise projects as long as that is all they do (i.e.: no discussion besides what's necessary for advertisement) regardless of their ban status." Naturally, projects that are inherently toxic/hateful/intentionally awful etc. would be exempt from using this.

[Da Werecat]

Even now everyone can post a project where it's gonna be noticed. You're still excluding the author from the community, which is apparently bad.

[killer2]

    Yes, people can still post to /idgames, but an /idgames post generates a lot less attention (and if it does it's very delayed since it has to wait for /newstuff) than a direct post on the forums, with screenshots and all the jazz that makes people interested in projects.

[Cynical]

31 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Wait, people are actually defending the "have assholes around because they make good stuff" point now? Shit man, do you not see how making exceptions to the rules just because someone is talented is a shitty thing to do?

 

"This one idiot has to go, but the other idiot made some nice stuff so we are beholden to his will"

 

idk it just don't sit right with me

What your Kindergarten teacher told you about the rules applying to everyone isn't how things work.  In reality, those who contribute more are given more leeway, and people turn a blind eye to their faults.

[dew]

21 minutes ago, killer2 said:

    Yes, people can still post to /idgames, but an /idgames post generates a lot less attention (and if it does it's very delayed since it has to wait for /newstuff) than a direct post on the forums, with screenshots and all the jazz that makes people interested in projects.

And the question lingers: If it is so important to announce a project on Doomworld to get artistic recognition, why act in a way that gets you expelled forever and hope the entire system gets changed later in order to accomodate your head problems?

[Nine Inch Heels]

So much for the last post being my last post here. I can't believe the shit I'm reading just now.

 

If you think letting assholes, who piss lots of people off, have their ways just so you can have your next Deus Vult or something along lines, then, sorry, but that's first of all short sighted (It drives other potentially good mappers away, if you like it or not), and it's quite selfish on top of that, because what you say in reality is: "I want the good maps assholes make, and I don't give a shit about how many other people get offended by them. Because ME ME ME ME ME."

 

Thank goodness some people don't have a say in this matter.

[Arctangent]

7 minutes ago, Cynical said:

What your Kindergarten teacher told you about the rules applying to everyone isn't how things work.  In reality, those who contribute more are given more leeway, and people turn a blind eye to their faults.

If we're actually going for the realistic angle and not the ideal one, then your Kindergarten teacher was wrong too. You can work hard and contribute a ton to society, but get no leeway when someone who sucks the economy dry gets off with murder scott-free because they have tons of money.

 

I'm pretty sure anyone saying that this is in anyway good is pretty telling about how much money they have.

[killer2]

1 minute ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

So much for the last post being my last post here. I can't believe the shit I'm reading just now.

 

If you think letting assholes, who piss lots of people off, have their ways just so you can have your next Deus Vult or something along lines, then, sorry, but that's first of all short sighted (It drives other potentially good mappers away, if you like it or not), and it's quite selfish on top of that, because what you say in reality is: "I want the good maps assholes make, and I don't give a shit about how many other people get offended by them. Because ME ME ME ME ME."

 

Thank goodness some people don't have a say in this matter.

    Except that is NOT what I'm saying! Have you even read my previous post?

 

4 minutes ago, dew said:

And the question lingers: If it is so important to announce a project on Doomworld to get artistic recognition, why act in a way that gets you expelled forever and hope the entire system gets changed later in order to accomodate your head problems?

    I don't know. I'm not an artist, and never was. I'm just saying these people's contributions can be great for the community, and it's a shame to have them disappear rather than reaching a compromise that makes both parties happy (of which I've posted numerous examples of, that nobody seems to care to address. All you people are addressing is how much of a "dipshit" I am and how ludicrous a forum in which people are let to do whatever they want would be <<which is a strawman, as I'm not proposing anything nearly as extreme as that>>). I don't get what part of what I'm saying is "unbelievable" or worth all the piss-takes you people are constantly doing.

[Doomkid]

16 minutes ago, Cynical said:

What your Kindergarten teacher told you about the rules applying to everyone isn't how things work.  In reality, those who contribute more are given more leeway, and people turn a blind eye to their faults.

My Kindergarten teacher? What the hell is this condescending bullshit rofl I'm saying that double standards in rules aren't a good thing, not that double standards don't exist. There's an important and very clear distinction there.

[rehelekretep]

killer2; what you are forgetting is that the people in charge of this community are humans with finite patience and time, and that you are asking them to do something completely unrealistic to appease your idealistic and strangely selfish viewpoint that everyone deserves a second (and third and fourth if theyre especially dear to you). communities are destroyed by letting assholes stick around pissing people off - not by banning the odd prodigy.

 

in fact, what is most irritating is that you wont often notice (until its too late) that the most vocal assholes will give the illusion of a healthy community until you realise that the other 95% have slowly stopped contributing and have given up taking part.

[Cynical]

Double standards exist for a good reason.  If a guy contributes a lot and has a few vices, he's still a net positive; the same can't be said of a guy with the same vices and no contributions.

[Poncho]

(First post ever)

I honestly think that people should only be banned if they write or imply extreme "opinions" (like the aforementioned alt-right ideas of thinking, which is horrible).

 

Just to say, I'm not a huge fan of political correctness, but I personally think there's a difference between political incorrectness and outright offensiveness (for example, look at Sgt Mark IV, I think it was: he wrote a LOT of dodgy stuff and, despite being a clever man, probably deserved to be banned).

 

Just wanted to put my thoughts out there.

[rehelekretep]

1 minute ago, Cynical said:

Double standards exist for a good reason.  If a guy contributes a lot and has a few vices, he's still a net positive; the same can't be said of a guy with the same vices and no contributions.

youre right, but i think youre missing the point that a volunteer community doesnt have the time or resources to pander to every idiot savant, and will inevitably have to decide on a case-by-case whether someone is worth tolerating.

[Da Werecat]

If being able to create a forum thread (where you can't even talk) would make a difference, I'd be pretty surprised. The sheer negativity of being kicked out and/or shat on is a much more important factor in someone deciding to stop making Doom content.

 

Which brings me back to my fallacious point, oops.

[Nine Inch Heels]

3 minutes ago, killer2 said:

Except that is NOT what I'm saying! Have you even read my previous post?

First off, you're not the only person in this discussion. Second off, I have adressed pretty much all of what you proposed and pointed out what the downsides are in a brief enough fashion. None of the points have been adressed by you thus far in thourough fashion, because all you really say all the time is you want for there be "second second chances", while being oblivious to the reality that we already have that here: Warnings -> temp bans -> perma bans. And it's not like you only get one warning before someone drops the hammer just like that.

 

7 minutes ago, killer2 said:

I'm not an artist, and never was. I'm just saying these people's contributions can be great for the community, and it's a shame to have them disappear rather than reaching a compromise that makes both parties happy (of which I've posted numerous examples of, that nobody seems to care to address

This has been adressed several times over: Perma bans are a last resort for when all else has failed. People don't "disappear" just like that, because see above.

 

8 minutes ago, killer2 said:

All you people are addressing is how much of a "dipshit" I am and how ludicrous a forum in which people are let to do whatever they want would be <<which is a strawman, as I'm not proposing anything nearly as extreme as that>>).

Either there is a set of rules or there isn't. If you take a wrong turn you get told as much, if you still take wrong turns after, see above. The alternative to having perma-bans is not having them, if what you want is the same set of rules for everybody.

[dew]

3 minutes ago, killer2 said:

    I don't know. I'm not an artist, and never was. I'm just saying these people's contributions can be great for the community, and it's a shame to have them disappear rather than reaching a compromise that makes both parties happy (of which I've posted numerous examples of, that nobody seems to care to address. All you people are addressing is how much of a "dipshit" I am and how ludicrous a forum in which people are let to do whatever they want would be <<which is a strawman, as I'm not proposing anything nearly as extreme as that>>). I don't get what part of what I'm saying is "unbelievable" or worth all the piss-takes you people are constantly doing.

LOL, who cares about your sob story, nice redirection attempt though. Is your answer really "artists be quirky, who even knows how their brains work, we must tolerate"? If they're so incredibly talented, they can announce their next fantastic project from their myspace page and fans would flock to them. Don't believe me?

Spoiler

I can't believe I'm actually doing this.

Spoiler

Sargeant Mark.

 

 

[killer2]

14 minutes ago, rehelekretep said:

killer2; what you are forgetting is that the people in charge of this community are humans with finite patience and time, and that you are asking them to do something completely unrealistic to appease your idealistic and strangely selfish viewpoint that everyone deserves a second (and third and fourth if theyre especially dear to you). communities are destroyed by letting assholes stick around pissing people off - not by banning the odd prodigy.

 

    I'm not sure you realize the ridiculousness in saying that me trying to help everyone come to a peaceful resolution within the community makes me selfish.

 

14 minutes ago, rehelekretep said:

in fact, what is most irritating is that you wont often notice (until its too late) that the most vocal assholes will give the illusion of a healthy community until you realise that the other 95% have slowly stopped contributing and have given up taking part.

    And that is why I haven't proposed in any of my posts to keep the assholes being vocal, especially if they continue being assholes. All I'm saying is give them a chance every year or more to write a few posts, and let them advertise their content without doing anything disruptive. I don't think that's unreasonable or "will destroy the community".

 

9 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

First off, you're not the only person in this discussion. Second off, I have adressed pretty much all of what you proposed and pointed out what the downsides are in a brief enough fashion. None of the points have been adressed by you thus far in thourough fashion, because all you really say all the time is you want for there be "second second chances", while being oblivious to the reality that we already have that here: Warnings -> temp bans -> perma bans. And it's not like you only get one warning before someone drops the hammer just like that.

    I realize I'm not the only person in this discussion, but you're addressing the minority (about 5%) of the answers and saying "I can't believe what I'm reading" as if it was the general consensus. And you haven't adressed how letting people who have been permabanned get a few posts in once a year or once every three years and then cleaning up after them and banning them again if they don't behave would have too much of a negative impact (I realize it would have some negative impact, but it could also lead to a huge positive impact, such as somebody redeeming themselves and being an active member again), nor how letting them advertize their projects in a way that's much easier for the community to see would be a downside.

    EDIT:Also one of the reasons why I didn't address most of your points is because you express yourself in such a way as to shut off further conversation rather than encourage it (kind of like Decay and Dew, although to a  much lesser extend...or at least that's the vibe I am getting from your replies).

 

9 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

The alternative to having perma-bans is not having them, if what you want is the same set of rules for everybody.

    This is basically where I stand on this. Not having permabans, just really long bans.

[Megalyth]

@killer2 You have good intentions, that doesn't make you a dipshit, but Doomworld isn't the place to seek help with psychological issues. Yes, there have been times when someone has relied upon friends within the community and gotten the support they needed, but they were people seeking help. Your example members were not doing that.

[leodoom85]

@killer2Guess it's time to go straight to the point. What are you trying to do with this whole situation here? Trying to promote people who were permabanned in here to go back? in other forums as well? Because I don't see the point of banned people to come back because of a "redempting case"......no, just no. Try to learn by being impartial about your decisions and for others as well.

[Endless]

Meanwhile, me: 

[killer2]

2 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

@killer2Guess it's time to go straight to the point. What are you trying to do with this whole situation here? Trying to promote people who were permabanned in here to go back? in other forums as well? Because I don't see the point of banned people to come back because of a "redempting case"......no, just no. Try to learn by being impartial about your decisions and for others as well.

    Not really. I'm not even sure they want to come back at this point. I'm trying to promote more tolerance towards people in the future so that fewer people get permabanned and more people have chances to reform or continue being useful members of the community despite their flaws. As for me not being impartial, could you give me some examples of that? I am trying to be impartial.

[Benjogami]

I like the idea of never permabanning and instead banning for a year initially. If they come back and do something bannable again, make it 2 years. Just keep adding a year to new bans. I think most people will move on with their lives during the 1 year ban. If not, maybe 2 is what they needed. Worst case scenario is that you get 4 obnoxious posts per banned user during the first 10 years of their respective sagas. ;) And then less and less after.

 

But it's easy for me to say, cause I don't have to do any of the work.

[Nine Inch Heels]

7 minutes ago, killer2 said:

I realize I'm not the only person in this discussion, but you're addressing the minority (about 5%) of the answers and saying "I can't believe what I'm reading" as if it was the general consensus.

Good, now so we can establish that you started arguing against the way I voice my opinion, rather than adressing my opinion in and of itself, it's probably safe to assume you've nothing to say against the arguments that have been made against your proposal. Glad we got that out the way, let's move on:
 

 

10 minutes ago, killer2 said:

And you haven't adressed how letting people who have been permabanned get a few posts in once a year or once every three years and then cleaning up after them and banning them again if they don't behave would have too much of a negative impact (I realize it would have some negative impact, but it could also lead to a huge positive impact, such as somebody redeeming themselves and being an active member again), nor how letting them advertize their projects in a way that's much easier for the community to see would be a downside.

I have already, thouroughly and logically explained that this forum is a spare time effort, thus what you do is ask people to do work for free because maaaaybeeeee someone who gets banned from the community for good reasons feels the noble urge to contribute to a place where they're not welcome anymore. So by the off chance that such a person existed it's probably like one among several thousands, if I were to highball it. That said, if everyone else around here gets to enjoy themselves without any shitty drama, and without having mods do unpaid work, then "sacrificing" these few maps every now and then are worth having a consistently positive atmosphere.

 

16 minutes ago, killer2 said:

This is basically where I stand on this. Not having permabans, just really long bans.

And this is where you start contradicting yourself since you already mentioned several times in this thread how it's probably good that some people are best kept away for good. Currently there warnings and short bans prior to perma bans. There are cases in which people around here have been tolerated for years before getting perma banned, including multiple warnings, and multiple temp-bans. You don't just get banned here just like that. Accept that for a change. Thanks.

[leodoom85]

Just now, killer2 said:

I'm trying to promote more tolerance towards people in the future so that fewer people get permabanned and more people have chances to reform or continue being useful members of the community despite their flaws

I have a lot of tolerance and patience, believe me. But when you encounter that kind of people who never learn, even after several times, how would you feel?

2 minutes ago, killer2 said:

As for me not being impartial, could you give me some examples of that? I am trying to be impartial.

Not impartial enough. You're just being rational, which I can understand, but you need to learn that some things are unavoidable, like the stupidity of a person and there's absolutely nothing that you can do because it's in the core. Just saying...

[rehelekretep]

15 minutes ago, killer2 said:

    Not really. I'm not even sure they want to come back at this point. I'm trying to promote more tolerance towards people in the future so that fewer people get permabanned and more people have chances to reform or continue being useful members of the community despite their flaws.

so you think your completely ignorant pontificating on permbanning people somehow gives you a better viewpoint and judgement than people who run a successful community on who should be permabanned and why? lol

tell you what, as you seem to want someone else to do this - why dont you set-up the 'Doomworld Court of Banning Appeals', Linguica & the other mods will send you all their transcripts and discussions over each individual ban (it would have to include all temp bans, as that would inform future cases), and then you can write some reports on each ban, set some conditions for their return (i am guessing it would have to be on some sort of license, like criminals who are released from jail partway through their sentence), and some rules for how long bans would be increased if they break any terms of their license - i could go on.

your presumption that you could do better is tiresome.

[Da Werecat]

24 minutes ago, killer2 said:

I'm trying to promote more tolerance towards people in the future so that fewer people get permabanned and more people have chances to reform or continue being useful members of the community despite their flaws.

I'd like to clarify: what makes you think that the current situation is inadequate? Especially considering that you're not advocating for anyone in particular.

[Obsidian]

I seriously did not think there would be differing opinions about that last poll option. What is this, The Fountainhead? "Oooh, they're just misunderstood geniuses, we should bend over backwards to accommodate them!" All that does is give them reason to act worse because of the lack of consequences: I don't doubt that forums have been sunk before on the whim of one privileged tosspot.

[killer2]

25 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

I have already, thouroughly and logically explained that this forum is a spare time effort, thus what you do is ask people to do work for free because maaaaybeeeee someone who gets banned from the community for good reasons feels the noble urge to contribute to a place where they're not welcome anymore. So by the off chance that such a person existed it's probably like one among several thousands, if I were to highball it. That said, if everyone else around here gets to enjoy themselves without any shitty drama, and without having mods do unpaid work, then "sacrificing" these few maps every now and then are worth having a consistently positive atmosphere.

    I think you're exaggerating how much work this actually implies. It's just keeping tabs on a few people for a little while once every one or three years. That doesn't sound like an excessive amout of work to me, and none of the moderators themselves have said anything on the matter. As for them not being welcome anymore, that's the kind of mentality I want to discourage. People should feel like they can be welcome as long as they change for the better. I don't see where you get your "one in a thousand" numbers from, either, and I highly doubt anyone could create any relevant drama before being banned while being actively (or at least semi-actively) monitored.

 

31 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

And this is where you start contradicting yourself since you already mentioned several times in this thread how it's probably good that some people are best kept away for good. Currently there warnings and short bans prior to perma bans. There are cases in which people around here have been tolerated for years before getting perma banned, including multiple warnings, and multiple temp-bans. You don't just get banned here just like that. Accept that for a change. Thanks.

    I don't think I'm contradicting myself. The people I said are best kept away have done much more vile things than hurting people's feeling or creating drama. They were actively trying to destroy whatever platform they were on, or if that failed at least alienate as much of the community as possible. People have been permabanned for reasons a lot less extreme than that though (at least, to my knowledge).

 

34 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

I have a lot of tolerance and patience, believe me. But when you encounter that kind of people who never learn, even after several times, how would you feel?

     While I admit it would be frustrating, I don't think frustration is a good enough reason to give up.

 

36 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

Not impartial enough. You're just being rational, which I can understand, but you need to learn that some things are unavoidable, like the stupidity of a person and there's absolutely nothing that you can do because it's in the core. Just saying...

    I don't see any better way of being impartial than trying to be as rational as possible. As for stupidity, I think some of these people were neither stupid nor malevolent in nature, and the ones that might come in the future could be the same.

 

24 minutes ago, rehelekretep said:

so you think your completely ignorant pontificating on permbanning people somehow gives you a better viewpoint and judgement than people who run a successful community on who should be permabanned and why? lol

tell you what, as you seem to want someone else to do this - why dont you set-up the 'Doomworld Court of Banning Appeals', Linguica & the other mods will send you all their transcripts and discussions over each individual ban (it would have to include all temp bans, as that would inform future cases), and then you can write some reports on each ban, set some conditions for their return (i am guessing it would have to be on some sort of license, like criminals who are released from jail partway through their sentence), and some rules for how long bans would be increased if they break any terms of their license - i could go on.

your presumption that you could do better is tiresome.

    I don't think my point of view is the absolute truth, I am merely trying to present it. And to be honest if I had more free time I would definitely be down to helping the troublemakers of the site understand where they've gone wrong and help them improve, but unfortunately I lack the time, not to mention the staff probably wouldn't agree with it anyways. I don't really get where this is coming from though, I never said I can do better than the moderators. I am merely presenting alternatives and trying to facilitate discussion and a means for people to come with their own ideas (though they seem to be more interested in either dismissing my idea completely or, in a few fringe cases, letting the trolls do as they please, none of which are particularly constructive). I was also hoping I could get a few more replies from the mods regarding my ideas.

20 minutes ago, Da Werecat said:

I'd like to clarify: what makes you think that the current situation is inadequate? Especially considering that you're not advocating for anyone in particular.

    Mostly the fact that while the doom community is still going very strong after all these years, it's still a small community. Losing a great mapper or an interesting presence affects a small community a lot more than a large one, since there are fewer people around to begin with. Trying to preserve good relations with as many people and artists as possible is imperative for a small community to thrive and get bigger.

[j4rio]

Good thing I'm not a mod, I'd permaban the fuck out of all meme posters.

[Doomkid]

6 minutes ago, Obsidian said:

I don't doubt that forums have been sunk before on the whim of one privileged tosspot.

We have several examples of that in the history of the Doom community in fact!